Sure, you can run your alcohol stove on methanol. That's what comes in a yellow bottle of HEET. I mean it's cheap and available and all -- but it doesn't have as much heat content as ethanol. In other words, you have to carry more methanol just to do the same amount of cooking.


OK, so I can get more heat from ethanol than methanol, great, but alcohols with high ethanol content tend to be more expensive. Just how much weight can I save? In other words, Is Ethanol Worth It?

Join me on today's Adventure in Stoving as we "do the numbers" on ethanol.

HJ

Hey Jim, where'd you take that picture from? I'm thinking maybe up above Sierra Madre?

Hi, Tom, you're very close. That photo is taken from Henninger Flats which is right above Altadena and just west of Sierra Madre. Good eye.

I thought that photo was so cool that I had to include it even though the post was about alcohol as a fuel.

I did however do all the testing from right near where that photo was taken, so I guess it's sort of on topic.

HJ

I know exactly where that is. A few years ago, I went up to the Forestry Division camp for the Fourth of July weekend with some friends. We could see fireworks all over the place, from the Rose Bowl all along the 210 and the 10. We hiked up the old Mt. Wilson Toll Road from Altadena. That's where I was thinking when I said Sierra Madre.

Tom, don't encourage HJ. He's everywhere.
Duane

That's exactly the spot. It was such a beautiful day that I had to take a photo.

HJ

Yes, don't encourage me. I might start talking about hiking or something. And we wouldn't want that now would we?

HJ

Howdy HJ, at least here, unlike TT, we keep on topic and no bashing here or insensitive folks.
Duane

Yeah, TT can get a little rambunctious some times.

HJ

"TT"? Do you mean Telemark Tips? They get a bit rowdy at times. As for HJ, I know him from Trailspace.

btw HJ, I liked your analysis of the Nova on your website. I have one-mine is the older one, but I left my pump out on my deck and the salt air corroded the aluminum. Is the problem with the new ones the pump or the stove itself? The pump probably still works, just doesn't look as nice. I haven't fired it up in a while. I did have a problem with the pump (the pickup tube came loose) and got no help from Brunton, so I wrote to Optimus in Sweden and got an answer back right away. The answer was simple-just epoxy it back in place, but I wasn't sure if that was the right solution-it was.

Tom,

The main problem with the Novas produced after Katadyn took over is the pump, but there are a host of problems.

The new pumps got rid of the proven CEJN connector and substituted a cheap knock off that has been nothing but problems. The new pumps are not compatible with the old ones.

HJ

So, what happens when the temperature gets down in the 20s or 30s? Does the weight advantage still hold, or does ethanol petter out b/c it won't vaporize? At 15 degrees F, will my supercat still work with HEET, or will it fizzle and leave me cold and hungry?

Personally, if it gets much below 45F, I'm getting out a gas or liquid fueled stove. You can make an alcohol stove work, but to me it starts seeming like too much trouble.

In colder weather, almost every alcohol stove will need to be primed. I use the lid off of a little tea container. It's just a bit wider than my stove. I set the stove (already fueled) in the primer pan, pour in a little alcohol, and light the alcohol. The alcohol in the primer pan heats the alcohol in the body of the stove and induces vaporization.

Because you're having to prime and because you're having to work with water (or snow) that is much colder, you're going to have to carry a lot more alcohol. Again, me personally, I don't see an alcohol stove as my "go to" stove for cold weather, but they can be made to work. Each to his own.

HJ

Wick based alcohol stoves need no priming, and are more efficient users of fuel in all temperatures. They light instantly (like a candle) even in sub-zero F. And one doesn't need to keep the fuel warm by sleeping with a canister. My go to stove is the alcohol based fanceefeest (not the supercat).

I haven't ever checked out any wicked stoves. I have heard a lot of good things about the Fancee Feast (from Zelph, yes?). Maybe I'll have to check that one out.

HJ

Tom, The Backpacker, Trail Talk forum, hence, TT.
Thanks HJ for tending to my stove count.
Duane

+1. The stoves with fiberglass wick wrapped around get into the pack when it's cold.

As long as I'm not melting lots of snow they work great.

Lori,

Do your stoves have wick on the outside or on the inside? If the wick is on the inside, then it's a true wick stove where the wick is transporting the fuel into the main flame.

If your stove has a wick on the outside, that's a priming wick which is used to get the stove warm enough to get going.

For example, the stove shown below does have a wick but it's a priming wick (on the outside). This stove is not a wicked stove per se.



Technical distinction, yes, I know, but I'm a stovie. What can I say? It does matter though for cold weather performance.

HJ

OK, HJ, what do you call a stove that has wicks on both the inside and outside? Inquiring minds want to know.......

I have a Blackfly and a Mini-Atomic. Both are Mini Bull stoves, both work fine in any temp. One has a primer wick around the stove, one has a wick that is inserted into the fuel and wicks it up through the top of the lid.

My non wick stoves work fine down to about freezing, actually.

Well, naturally, a stove with two wicks would pick up fuel at twice the rate of other stoves. So, I guess you could call it the "quicker wicker upper."

HJ

P.S. I'm new here, but you seem strangely familiar. Hmm... Do you like Primus 71 stoves?

Ah, very astute! On ETS, I sign in as "hikermor."

I was afraid of that, er, I mean, that's what I thought.

HJ

Hey Lori,
“My non wick stoves work fine down to about freezing, actually.”
I thought you had a white box stove; and that goes even lower. Mine works great at 0F even w/o preheating--- though preheating (in the coat) speeds up the blooming process.

I have a V8 open-jet pressure stove that has fiberglass batting in the walls--- used as a wick. My daughter loves that cute stove and she’s been using it for 5 years. However, it just pitters out when it approaches 30F outside. So I wonder if ‘inside’ wicking is only good for some stoves and not others.

May your stove always bloom.
-Barry

Good question. It’s true that HEET has less BTU than SLX. But the proof is in the pudding. I find only a 30 second difference of boil times (2 cups of 60F water) when comparing HEET and SLX. So for a 300 second boil vs a 330 second boil is only a 10% change. That’s in the noise of too many outside variables. So for 3 season estimate I bring 0.75 mass oz per meal of HEET or SLX (my buddies use SLX). So for a week, I’ll bring 10 mass oz or 11 mass oz. It’s really hard to notice the 10% difference. Some other benefits of HEET over SLX is it burns cleaner (less sooting), no smell, no fidget starting at 0F (or any temperature), and I get it cheaper.

Here I am talking about HEET and for the past 4 years I haven’t used HEET! I’ve been using the cheaper walmart copycat version. It is 98¢ /12fl. oz. Then, later it goes on sale for 50¢ (for about 15 seconds!)

May your stove always bloom.
-Barry

The mountains were made for Tevas!

Hi, Barry,

Just speaking about me, boil times aren't my primary consideration, particularly with alcohol stoves. I'm more concerned with weight. With HEET, I have to carry about 1/3 more fuel to do the same amount of cooking. Does that matter? It depends on the individual.

With respect to methanol, I assume the Walmart brand you're talking about is Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze, yes? I looked up the MSDS, and it says 100% methanol. If that's cheaper, that would be a nice deal.

HJ

Thanks for the correction. TTips is a contentious bunch as well. Nothing like tele skiing true believers to get riled up over trivia.

Oops, one little hitch in my get along: Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze doesn't appear to be available in my area. WalMart's site says there's none available w/in 50 miles.

A 12 pack of HEET works out to $14 and some change per gallon. That's not so bad. Of course white gasoline is $9.69 or so and has a lot more heat content per gram. Funny how gasoline is less expensive than methanol.

HJ

“Just speaking about me, boil times aren't my primary consideration, particularly with alcohol stoves. I'm more concerned with weight. With HEET, I have to carry about 1/3 more fuel to do the same amount of cooking.”

Hi Jim,
You’re right, it’s a personal preference. Out in the middle of nowhere, I care about boil times. I have found the shorter-burn-time stoves (5 minutes for 2C H2O) perform much better <32F than the slow ‘efficient’ stoves. And I use my stove in the cold a lot. So in that scenario, there’s only about a 10% weight difference for me (not 33%) in carrying SLX vs HEET. Plus 1 fl oz of alcy per meal is not that much to carry.

And yes, it is the “Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze”. But I didn’t know it was 100% methanol. I thought the side label stated the same ingredients as HEET.

May your stove always bloom,
-Barry

Hi, Barry,

Walmart has a really cool (in my opinion) feature on their site: http://msds.walmartstores.com That link has all of the MSDS's for the products that Walmart sells. Is that cool or what? When I looked it up the other day, “Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze” said 100% methanol. I tried to look it up again just now, but it's the day before Christmas, and their site seems like it's really sloooooow right now.

I hear you about the cold weather thing. A stove that's efficient and effective above freezing isn't necessarily the best stove for cold weather. Heat loss to the environment is much more pronounced in cold weather. Plus you need to have more total heat output because you're heating water with a much colder starting temperature.

OK, so opinion question (no wrong answers in other words), why do you take alcohol stoves on cold weather trips? I can think of some reasons (simplicity, fuel availability, etc.), but I'm curious as to what other reasons there may be. I've always looked at alcohol stoves as good for clement weather, but when the mercury starts dropping, I reach for gas or white gas/kero.

HJ

It can't be discounted that 190 proof ethanol(everclear) is truely a multiple use item. Disinfectant, clean stove fuel, and ingredient for gatorade punch The price is overcome by it's flexiblity!

You've sold me!

HJ

Sorry, I didn’t check this thread for a while.

“…why do you take alcohol stoves on cold weather trips?”
Well, some reasons:
1. It comes down to light weight again. An alcy setup will always be lighter than the whisperloud setup—even with the more required alcohol.
2. I’m still paranoid about white gas flare-ups.
3. Alcy always starts--- no priming or pumping (with a good stove).
4. Any fuel leaks doesn’t eat/destroy your nylon or polyester stuff.

Another help is-- fuel is saved by not coming to a full boil.

-Barry

Assuming you are talking about the 100% methanol heet, this doesn't jive with my experience using both. Indeed, ethanol will technically have more BTU's, however, practically, I've not seen a measurable difference in the field in how much fuel is necessary - I've been able to measure *slightly* different boil times on my bench but they are faaaar less than variablility in the field (water temperature etc). with methanol versus ethanol. I certainly do not have to carry 1/3 less fuel with ethanol. I carry the same amount.

Now, as I use the penny stove which is at least partially pressurized, for this sort of stove, I do find that methanol is easier to light in the cold - as it boils 10 degrees lower than ethanol - so I find meths is a bit easier in the cold.

On the other hand, everclear is a bit more multi-use.

phat,

I'm basing my remarks on the results I describe in this post: Is Ethanol Worth It?

I found I could boil in field conditions with only 18ml of high ethanol content fuel (Klean Strip Green Denatured) where as it took me 24ml of methanol (yellow HEET).

I've seen tests done in labs where the results where much closer, but in my tests, which I repeated numerous times, there was a 6ml difference per 500ml boiled.

YMMV (Your Methanol May Vary)

HJ

Interesting - I sure don't see that difference, and I've done pretty much the same test! - mind you, I am using a penny stove - I wonder if the caldera cone and caldera cone stove manages to do a lot better with the ethanol as compared..

If I had a caldera cone stove I'd be tempted to compare the difference in both stoves... hmm.. my brother does. perhaps I'll borrow it

Sometimes, it can be really hard to generalize with alcohol stoves. So much depends on the conditions and the entire system used for testing. If you do borrow your brother's cone, I'd be interested in your results.

If you look at the link above, down at the bottom of my blog post, I listed all the conditions I tested under (wind, temp, altitude, etc).

HJ