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#159078 - 12/21/11 11:32 PM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: BarryP]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
Hi, Barry,

Just speaking about me, boil times aren't my primary consideration, particularly with alcohol stoves. I'm more concerned with weight. With HEET, I have to carry about 1/3 more fuel to do the same amount of cooking. Does that matter? It depends on the individual.

With respect to methanol, I assume the Walmart brand you're talking about is Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze, yes? I looked up the MSDS, and it says 100% methanol. If that's cheaper, that would be a nice deal.

HJ
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#159086 - 12/22/11 03:28 AM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: hikerduane]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Originally Posted By hikerduane
Tom, The Backpacker, Trail Talk forum, hence, TT.
Thanks HJ for tending to my stove count. smile
Duane


Thanks for the correction. TTips is a contentious bunch as well. Nothing like tele skiing true believers to get riled up over trivia.
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#159109 - 12/22/11 01:02 PM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: Hikin Jim]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
Oops, one little hitch in my get along: Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze doesn't appear to be available in my area. WalMart's site says there's none available w/in 50 miles. frown

A 12 pack of HEET works out to $14 and some change per gallon. That's not so bad. Of course white gasoline is $9.69 or so and has a lot more heat content per gram. Funny how gasoline is less expensive than methanol.

HJ
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#159136 - 12/22/11 05:22 PM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: Hikin Jim]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“Just speaking about me, boil times aren't my primary consideration, particularly with alcohol stoves. I'm more concerned with weight. With HEET, I have to carry about 1/3 more fuel to do the same amount of cooking.”

Hi Jim,
You’re right, it’s a personal preference. Out in the middle of nowhere, I care about boil times. I have found the shorter-burn-time stoves (5 minutes for 2C H2O) perform much better <32F than the slow ‘efficient’ stoves. And I use my stove in the cold a lot. So in that scenario, there’s only about a 10% weight difference for me (not 33%) in carrying SLX vs HEET. Plus 1 fl oz of alcy per meal is not that much to carry.

And yes, it is the “Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze”. But I didn’t know it was 100% methanol. I thought the side label stated the same ingredients as HEET.

May your stove always bloom,
-Barry


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#159220 - 12/24/11 03:31 PM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: BarryP]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
Originally Posted By BarryP

You’re right, it’s a personal preference. Out in the middle of nowhere, I care about boil times. I have found the shorter-burn-time stoves (5 minutes for 2C H2O) perform much better <32F than the slow ‘efficient’ stoves. And I use my stove in the cold a lot. So in that scenario, there’s only about a 10% weight difference for me (not 33%) in carrying SLX vs HEET. Plus 1 fl oz of alcy per meal is not that much to carry.

And yes, it is the “Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze”. But I didn’t know it was 100% methanol. I thought the side label stated the same ingredients as HEET.

May your stove always bloom,
Hi, Barry,

Walmart has a really cool (in my opinion) feature on their site: http://msds.walmartstores.com That link has all of the MSDS's for the products that Walmart sells. Is that cool or what? When I looked it up the other day, “Super Tech Gas Line Antifreeze” said 100% methanol. I tried to look it up again just now, but it's the day before Christmas, and their site seems like it's really sloooooow right now.

I hear you about the cold weather thing. A stove that's efficient and effective above freezing isn't necessarily the best stove for cold weather. Heat loss to the environment is much more pronounced in cold weather. Plus you need to have more total heat output because you're heating water with a much colder starting temperature.

OK, so opinion question (no wrong answers in other words), why do you take alcohol stoves on cold weather trips? I can think of some reasons (simplicity, fuel availability, etc.), but I'm curious as to what other reasons there may be. I've always looked at alcohol stoves as good for clement weather, but when the mercury starts dropping, I reach for gas or white gas/kero.

HJ
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#159434 - 01/01/12 09:37 PM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: Hikin Jim]
mtnbob Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 10
It can't be discounted that 190 proof ethanol(everclear) is truely a multiple use item. Disinfectant, clean stove fuel, and ingredient for gatorade punch grin The price is overcome by it's flexiblity!

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#159447 - 01/02/12 01:20 AM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: mtnbob]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
You've sold me! smile

HJ
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Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#160057 - 01/10/12 06:36 PM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: Hikin Jim]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
Sorry, I didn’t check this thread for a while.

“…why do you take alcohol stoves on cold weather trips?”
Well, some reasons:
1. It comes down to light weight again. An alcy setup will always be lighter than the whisperloud setup—even with the more required alcohol.
2. I’m still paranoid about white gas flare-ups.
3. Alcy always starts--- no priming or pumping (with a good stove).
4. Any fuel leaks doesn’t eat/destroy your nylon or polyester stuff.

Another help is-- fuel is saved by not coming to a full boil.

-Barry

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#160060 - 01/10/12 07:01 PM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: Hikin Jim]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By Hikin Jim

Just speaking about me, boil times aren't my primary consideration, particularly with alcohol stoves. I'm more concerned with weight. With HEET, I have to carry about 1/3 more fuel to do the same amount of cooking. Does that matter? It depends on the individual.


Assuming you are talking about the 100% methanol heet, this doesn't jive with my experience using both. Indeed, ethanol will technically have more BTU's, however, practically, I've not seen a measurable difference in the field in how much fuel is necessary - I've been able to measure *slightly* different boil times on my bench but they are faaaar less than variablility in the field (water temperature etc). with methanol versus ethanol. I certainly do not have to carry 1/3 less fuel with ethanol. I carry the same amount.

Now, as I use the penny stove which is at least partially pressurized, for this sort of stove, I do find that methanol is easier to light in the cold - as it boils 10 degrees lower than ethanol - so I find meths is a bit easier in the cold.

On the other hand, everclear is a bit more multi-use.






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#160082 - 01/11/12 02:25 AM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: phat]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
phat,

I'm basing my remarks on the results I describe in this post: Is Ethanol Worth It?

I found I could boil in field conditions with only 18ml of high ethanol content fuel (Klean Strip Green Denatured) where as it took me 24ml of methanol (yellow HEET).

I've seen tests done in labs where the results where much closer, but in my tests, which I repeated numerous times, there was a 6ml difference per 500ml boiled.

YMMV (Your Methanol May Vary) wink

HJ
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Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

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#160093 - 01/11/12 09:41 AM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: Hikin Jim]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada


Interesting - I sure don't see that difference, and I've done pretty much the same test! - mind you, I am using a penny stove - I wonder if the caldera cone and caldera cone stove manages to do a lot better with the ethanol as compared..

If I had a caldera cone stove I'd be tempted to compare the difference in both stoves... hmm.. my brother does. perhaps I'll borrow it smile
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#160113 - 01/11/12 02:21 PM Re: Is Ethanol Worth It? (for alcohol stoves) [Re: phat]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
Sometimes, it can be really hard to generalize with alcohol stoves. So much depends on the conditions and the entire system used for testing. If you do borrow your brother's cone, I'd be interested in your results.

If you look at the link above, down at the bottom of my blog post, I listed all the conditions I tested under (wind, temp, altitude, etc).

HJ
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