I've been invited to give a 30-45 talk/demonstration to a large Scout troop in Dallas, about ultralite backpacking and camping in general. I've learned some of the leadership are die-hard traditional boot and bowie-knife hikers.
After accepting the invitation, I realized just how little 30 minutes is with respect to a big subject.

What would you want to hear, scouters/ultraliters?

Equipment is good, but can fail or be lost. Skills and the ability to think are harder to lose. It's usually easier to think if one is not totally exhausted from carrying excess weight.

I concur with PerryMK. In addition to the logic stated by perry, I will add the following: With more knowledge and skills, one does not need as much gear thus the pack will be lighter.
"Be Prepared" is often misapplied to mean "bring everything" it should be, Be Prepared with the knowledge and skills.

For those Scouts who have already struggled underneath a 35 lb pack (and worse), I think that just knowing it is possible for someone to backpack safely and responsibly with a 15 lb. base weight or less will impress itself onto their minds so deeply that they will never forget it. Your example will become a burning inspiration to them, whether or not you explain every bit of gear in detail.

I would stress the concept that there is nothing that is "super light", if you have to carry it and don't need it. I'd contrast that to its opposite, that if your survival depends on having something, then "too heavy" becomes a nonsense idea.

Have a volunteer from the audience lift your fully loaded pack.

Better yet, have them all come lift it!

Maybe have everything laid out on the table beforehand and pack each item as you talk about it? Of course that will take quite a few rehearsals to make it smooth!

I love that kind of stuff. I think it's a ton of fun to do that.

Ulhiker did a presentation on this a couple months ago at a hiker's gathering here. I missed it, but everyone there was pretty impressed with it.

I think he focused a lot on lightweight gear and demonstrating how and why it worked. He has some fairly high-end gear, and that was appropriate for the audience there, but that might not be the case with yours. I think that if you do discuss and display any high end gear you might want to also discuss a low cost alternative that works well too. In any case, I'm sure he'd be glad to go over it with you and give you some tips on what people responded to.

With your audience, I think it would be good to talk about the technique. Discuss how there are different styles and approaches to backpacking. If most of them are surrounded by bush crafters then explaining how that is one approach, and how they can experiment with other approaches, such as ultralight and lightweight backpacking, and benefit from them all and put them to use in various circumstances and conditions.

Talking about how to figure out what you really don't need is, I think, the first thing one needs to learn about UL backpacking and that this, and not just gear, is central to the concept, and how having everything you need is the core element of that. That differs a lot from the bushcraft approach, in that the goal there is to have the tools and skills to acquire everything else you need.

Anyway, be sure to have fun with it. You might start off by asking them "What's the heaviest thing you carry in your pack?" That will get them thinking. And then you could follow up with, "What's the dumbest thing you've ever seen someone bring?" That should get them poking fun at each other and engaged in the topic.

I'd offer that you leave them with some cheap and easy DYI gear ideas so they can put what they've learned into practice. I'd think a SuperCat stove would have to be a big hit with them (not so sure about their parents), and so would a visqueen tarp.

You have to let us know how it went. Kids generally crack me up. I was hanging with my grandson and a group of scouts when Ulhiker did his presentation and those kids were as sharp witted and funny as any crowd I've been with.

...could throw in something about "bacon stretchers" or "left handed smoke shifters" since they are scouts...

Stick to the facts; the benefits of the light and ultralight. Heck, you can still bring your Arkansas toothpick if you want to. It's all about adding to the experience.

sK

Some great ideas here Bill. Unfortunately the BSA has prohibited the use of home-made and/or handcrafted liquid fuel stoves. We used to teach scouts how to make the supercat, since it was so easy. But now we can't. Actually, they can make the stove,they just can't use it.

Bring a scale. As an Eagle Scout, former Assistant Scoutmaster, and soon to be Tiger cub parent that piece of advice (from this site) was a revelation. Knowing, rather than thinking, what things weigh makes a difference.

Feeling the difference of picking up your pack, and picking up one of theirs, will make a difference. Ask the Scoutmaster to bring his pack and have a couple of the older boys (who are about your size) load and bring theirs.

For the younger boys and their parents, seeing cheap ways to make backpacking more enjoyable, and being able to make gear for low cost that lightens load will penetrate. Explaining costs and benefits will penetrate.

Explain the cost/quality/weight dilema, and how you approach it. The boys parents have to buy (and replace) a lot of their gear, particularly clothing, regularly.

You wouldn't have been invited if some members of the troop leadership didn't see an issue with what they or their boys were carrying, or didn't have a future program in mind that would require lightening up.

I can see the liquid fuel rules being... risk adverse. In the early 90's, the boys weren't really allowed to start up liquid fueled stoves. We did all our cooking on open fires.

I think it is worthwhile to stress the cheap, available alternatives in gear, along with the knowledge and skill to use them. Point out the areas where spending money makes some sense....

Definitely let them do some pack lifting.

Thirty minutes is really short. Decide what your central point will be and emphasize that. Leave some of the details for after the meeting. You may get quite a few questions then.

Couldn't agree more. Although it never leaves the house, the scale is my most important piece of equipment.

When I was in scouts, many times someone would slip a 10 pound rock into someone's pack as a practical joke. I suspect nothing has changed in the last 40 years. As an attention step I'd take a 10 pound rock out of my pack and say many carry a 10 pound rock that doesn't look like a rock. (Most likely it's extra stuff Mom threw in.)

I'd go through each system and explain how rocks can be taken out without costing any money. It might help for the scout master to bring his pack and use that as an example.

These kids are going to grow up, so I'd give suggestions for the future, too.

I would do the opposite of what OM suggested. I would bring the pack fully loaded for a weekend and as you talk, unpack everything, including food and the cook kit. Even if scouts can't make the stove officially, I'd show it anyway and as an alternative, show them a small canister stove like a Pocket Rocket.

Great ideas, everybody! I had planned to type up a handout with some basics and 'gear procurement' sources. On thing I've got going for me is that the assistant scoutmaster is a UL and hammocker convert I made about 3 years ago. He'll be my assistant.
I didn't know about the liquid fuel stove rule. A boyscout invented the first alky stove I built, and I have a dozen or so versions of alky stoves. I guess Esbit is still ok....that's what I use anyway.

I agree with all that has been said... have them compare a "regular" pack to a UL pack, maybe lay the contents out side-by-side so they can see that many of the contents serve the same purpose, just weigh less. Show them how quickly things can add up by doing a side-by-side comparison of the top 3 items, clothing choices, tools/utensils etc. Have boys bring their top "must have" item for the weigh-in and to see if there is an alternative they can consider.

Sounds like fun, but tough to fit into 30-45 minutes!

MNS

30 -45 minutes isn't long enough to get really bogged down in specific gear items. Is there any possibility that you could make this a multi-week project:

Week 1: have the boys bring their loaded pack to the meeting before your talk, where the Scoutmaster can weigh them and make a record.

Week 2: give your talk, and issue a challenge to the boys to lighten their packs.

Week 3 or 4: have the boys bring their loaded packs to another meeting, weigh them again, and record the new weight.

The night before, or morning of, the next hike: do a shakedown.

I haven't figured out how you handle the problem of cheating in weeks 1 and 3 - there's always the chance they would simply leave something out (like a tent) just to get a lower weight.

As we all know, "lighten up" is a habit we acquire over time; one talk alone may not get the boys into the habit the way building it into the program might.

FOOD FOOD FOOD!!! That'll get their attention. OK, the time limit will be a challenge but have your assistant at the same time take a small stove and boil up some water and add to an easy freezer bag recipe (say, instant stuffing and a foil chicken). Have each kid taste the results. Boil Water, wait five minutes, and eat with no dishes!! Quick, easy, and lightweight. (My son's patrol leader once had my son carry two (yes two) cases of cans of soda on a hike and camping trip. But then, at the time, my son was 6'2" 230 pounds and captain of the football team))

I might have had him carry me while I sipped on a can soda

“I didn't know about the liquid fuel stove rule.”
I wouldn’t worry about it.

The ‘rule’ is ambiguous. It’s found at http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-013WB.pdf
I’ve worked with at least 6 scout troops on this. Let me pick at 3 points:
1) “Chemical Fuels not Recommended—_Unleaded gasoline;
liquid alcohol fuels, including isopropyl alcohol, denatured
ethyl alcohol, and ethanol…”
‘not Recommended’ means you can use it but you’ll be frowned upon. It’s ironic they state “Recommended Chemical Fuels—_White gas…”

2) For stoves: “Prohibited Chemical-Fueled Equipment—_Equipment
that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed
beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations
or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can” stoves,
smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane
burners with their regulators removed.”
You can buy professional-registered-corporations-manufactured alcy stoves that still weigh 0.2 to 0.8oz and thus meet this requirement.

3) They also give a catch all clause: “Before any chemical fuels or chemical-fueled equipment
is used, an adult knowledgeable about chemical
fuels and equipment, including regulatory requirements
should resolve any hazards not specifically addressed
within this policy.”
So have an adult there- teaching.


But think about it; Would you rather give a scout a Whisper-Loud stove or an alcy stove? I’ve had a heart attack so many times with gas stove flare-ups -- even when you THINK you have it under control.

Some will argue that if you want to be covered by scout insurance, you must not use any alcy stove. I don’t think it can be interpreted like that because of ambiguity. I know 2 lawyers ready to take BSA on if they use alcohol stoves as an insurance denial excuse.

But in all fairness, the 6 troops I’ve worked with were also sponsored by churches that also carry separate insurance. Plus when the boys go out, the parents are asked if they are willing to use their personal insurance via several paperwork forms that must be issued to keep the insurance lawyers happy. That provides a warm fuzzy for those boys taking their own stoves that were made under professional adult supervision. Plus I feel safer hauling alcy rather than white gas.

Now that I’m off my soap box, back to the regular scheduled program:
Ideas for UL show:
1. Bring your pack in--- all packed.
2. Pull out the small packaged tent. To save time, have a 2nd one set up outside for show n tell.
3. It blows people’s mind when you pull the down quilt out of a dinky bag.
4. For scouts, I encourage CCF mats. They’re cheap, light, and they can’t destroy them.
5. Show water ideas: Ultraviolet, Chlorine Dioxide pills, filters. For one demo, I took on several filters. We brought in brown water. There’s only one backpacking filter that can truly clear up the brown water: The First Need. To bad it’s not UL.
6. first aid (<3oz)
7. The alcy stove gets everyone excited. That is a GOOD scouting activity. See my soap box above.
8. Footwear--- This is only me. But when I do my demos, I point out the sandal I’m wearing is also the sandal I backpack in. Then I lay down the 20 benefits of sandals vs. Shoes/boots. It must work, because I have a lot of converts.

Have fun with it.
-Barry

Wow! The modern Scout code - A Scout is Brave, Clean, Reverent,.... and Litigious. Are there any firms that specialize in representing Scouts in legal proceedings?

“are there any firms that specialize in representing Scouts in legal proceedings?”

It’s interesting that the early days of BSA was ran by James West—a lawyer.
But when you say firms representing Scouts--- there are many; probably one in every major town--- at least willing to represent scouts. So I’m not sure if I understand your question.
But what about firms representing BSA? It also appears, after a lot of reading, they have also been represented by any number of law firms around the US.
-Barry

While I am not an advocate of the present prohibition, and while you might find a lawyer willing to argue the case, I do not see the prohibition as ambiguous in the least bit. Those three clauses do not contradict each other unless you are being willfully obtuse. Like I said, I am not a fan of the prohibition, but it is very clear.

From a purely practical viewpoint, I've come to favor canister stoves for younger Scouts (and inexperienced assistant leaders) for one reason: spilled fuel. Rookies, especially easily-distracted young boys, will overflow alcohol stoves (even a "legal" one like the Trangia), then light it where it sits. Likewise, they'll spill fuel when filling the cup on a white gas stove like the Whisperlite/Simmerlite, with the same explosive (though entertaining) results.

Sure, the only correct approach is to teach them the proper way to handle these stoves. But, with a bunch of rookies, they're usually not ready (or willing - short attention spans need work, too) for such things at first. So, without even knowing the Scouts had a policy on such things, I held off liquid-fuel stoves until the boys had a season or two under their belts - then I taught them how to work the other stoves.

You are right - I wasn't very clear. I guess my eyes glaze over when the regulations, requirements, etc. get this detailed. Getting outside shouldn't require dealing with all this verbiage. A sensible adult should be able to introduce young people to reasonable techniques. There is no such thing as an absolutely bomb proof, fail safe stove - they can all create "incidents" as can the traditional campfire.

Very true about the age, attention spans and experience. One of the most important aspects of teaching/learning is to gauge the readiness of the student to be able to successfully learn, and safely complete the task. This is true whether it be stoves, knives, guns, boats or the myriad of other tools and activities we try to expose the boys to. It is all a learning experience and growth on a continuum. Even the requirements for ranks, and badges exemplify this growth.

You folks have given me all kinds of ideas...Thanks!!
From talking to the assistant SM that invited me, it appears the people I have to convince will be the dads/moms. The kids will do what the parents say. (yeah, right )
So, for this meeting, I'll break it into little 5-10 min segments and talk about:
1. backpacking/camping styles in general...climates, topography, preparing....why ultralite?
2. What to wear, starting with feet and moving up from there.
3. What to eat, how to prepare it. (which includes stoves/pot/utensil).
4. Packs, tarps/hammocks, equipment in general.
5. DIY or where to buy.
If I get invited back, we can then drill down into subjects a bit deeper.

Great plan! Let us know how it goes.

Here is my $.02 for what it's worth.

You have to remember where the parents are coming from, since they are your target audience. The parents aren't carrying the gear, the kids are, but the parents are buying the gear. Most look at a $100 sleeping bag as REALLY expensive, especially when it is for a 12-13 year old who will probably either loose it, or trash it, or out grow it. They are already funding a few other things for their kids, and this just adds to the list. And, depending on the troop, they might be paying dues for the kid to just go to meetings, plus the fortune they fork out for uniforms. In other words, if you don't show them how to do it cheaply, they won't listen.

if you don't show them how to do it cheaply, they won't listen.

Even having no direct experience as a scout master, this sounds 100% correct. Luckily, the lightest thing in your pack is always what you didn't bring, which is usually the cheapest, too. That's always the place to start with lightweight packing anyway.

Darn few of these kids will end up with a really good down sleeping bag, but I'd strongly urge the idea that, of all the places to put one's money, to reserve the lion's share of what you can afford to put toward the sleeping bag. Make a few suggestions about what a useable bag looks like when shopping for it, and provide some illustrations from real life: cite a few bags you located on the internet.

Absolutely agree. My wife ran a girl scout troop for a dozen years and we became quite expert at providing for the less fortunate members.
My #1 clothing source is....the closet. Much of what they already own will suddenly become cutting edge hiking apparel. Walmart would be the second source.
Sleeping bags are the tricky part but since we're in Texas, they won't likely be considering 0 deg bags.
The main thing with the adults is to get their heads headed in the right direction.

I'd put a pack right up there with a sleeping bag - maybe ahead of it - for a troop that hikes a lot. I've seen a lot of little kids that become packs-with-legs because their parents buy an adult-size pack that "he'll grow into" - if he doesn't totally lose interest because he totes around too much crap in a pack because it will hold it all, and which doesn't even come close to fitting, with the result that he never learns that a load doesn't have to just hang from his shoulders. REI and (last time I checked) the Boy Scouts both had good-quality kid-specific packs that weren't too hard on the checkbook.

I'll probably start the presentation with a picure of "Grandma Gatewood" with her duffle bag and her Keds.
"All you need is an old shower curtain, a couple wool blankets, a jar of water, and you can hike the AT, just like her!"

For my troop, I try my hardest to supply most of the gear. I have either bought or borrowed packs and tents. I tell the parents that they need to spend the most on the sleeping bag. I tell them to buy their clothes at the thrift store, or look in the closet, and then spend the money on a good bag. Of course, despite my pleading, only one parent has spent more than $100 on a bag (a kelty lightyear). The rest have all bought the $50 Coleman Max 0F bag at Walmart. I figure that that is good enough and tell parents that that is the minimum they should spend and the only bag they should buy at Walmart.

Because the pack is very important, and because I want them to spend money on a bag, I have been buying a couple packs that are 12 year old specific. I have a Kelty Jr Tioga that is amazing. But I have also bought 2 Outdoor Products Dragonfly packs. The external frame really lends itself to 12 year old scouts with big sleeping bags. And, the frame is the right size for the small boys. I can even size it for my 9 year old. I also bought 2 MOLLE hip belts that fit perfectly on the Dragonfly frame for when a larger boy, or adult needs to use the pack. Of course, the pack is not light at a little over 3 lbs.

I totally agree on your priorities...However, I am not surprised at what most of your parents did. If the kids get into outdoor pursuits, they will see the point behind getting a really good, light bag.

I am not surprised either, so I take it as a compromise. Besides, with the Coleman Max bag, I know the kids are going to be warm.

Well I did it! Gave the talk tonight and ran long because of the interest and questions. Talked a bit about all of your responses, lots of good stuff.
Spent some time talking about my own evolution, bringing some of my old equipment and what I use now. By some of the questions from both adults and kids, I can tell the scoutmaster will have his hands full dealing with his new 'gear heads'.
Thanks everyone!

Glad to hear it went well. Just remember, the Scoutmaster has your phone number, and he may respond to gearhead inquiries by giving it out!

My guess is that you'll be asked to do an encore performance, which you should take as a truly sincere compliment.

Ha! Only through a third party. When I typed up the hand-outs I left any reference to me.....off.

This troop is WAY ahead of the curve. The kids didn't get stuck on stoves, the parents did though. Had this nightmare of creating a bunch of pyro's. Out of 30 kids, around 10 raised their hand when I asked who used a hammock, plus 3 of the leaders. I didn't have to preach about cotton....they all knew. Most wore trail runners already. The only snag in all this is Philmonts packing list requirements. It's still old school. No hammocks, and tarps are frowned upon, as are alky stoves and esbit. Clearly for kiddo safety. My dad taught me minimalist camping...scouts undid it. http://philmontscoutranch.org/Camping/Hikers/WhattoBring/PackingList.aspx

You're probably already aware of the efforts folks like Ryan Jordan and Glen van Peski are making to change Philmont's positions toward ultralight gear - there's actually a Scouting section and a Philmont-specific subsection on the BackpackingLight website.

I've not spent any time with it since the chances of me ever taking Scouts to Philmont are effectively zero.

I didn't know about Glen (proud owner/user of a GPV4! )
I did read backpackinglight's Philmont list page. Still, the park makes the final call, but I hope some headway is made. I once followed a scout and his mom (friends of mine) around an Academy Sports as she filled the shopping basket with 'stuff' from their list. The pack must have been bigger than the scout.
Last nights troop is very adventurous with great leadership. Nice website too...check out "Florida Seabase".

http://t221.org/

I host one or two Eagle projects here in my park and know that not all troops are equal.

Nice website - even nicer is the kind of trips they take.

Excellent. I am glad it went well. I have found that teaching 12-13 year olds is a LOT different than adults.