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#158654 - 12/13/11 11:40 AM Reliable lighter suggestions
Dave H Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 57
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Some scouts got lost locally recently and did everything right but they couldn't get a fire started. They were found the next day. I would like to prepare my 13 year old scout so that if he is ever in a similar situation he would be able to get a fire started even in wet conditions. He has carried the cheap 79 cent lighter from the local gas station in the past but I would like to get him something a little more reliable. I have been looking at the turboflame lighters http://www.turboflame.co.uk/ but wanted some others opinions. Thanks

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#158655 - 12/13/11 11:47 AM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Dave H]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I've used one of the Windmill Classic lighters REI sells (they also sell a Windmill Delta lighter), and it works pretty well. They're advertised as "Stormproof," and I've never had any problems with the flame being snuffed out by the wind. However, they are butane-fueled, and I have had some issues getting them to work when temperatures get into the low 20s. Usually, heating them up in my hand or a pocket inside a jacket does the trick.

Of course, I also carry some strike-anywhere matches and one of the magnesium sparking kits, just in case. Don't send your son out with only one way to get a fire going.

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#158657 - 12/13/11 12:26 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Glenn]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
There is more to lighting a fire than just the equipment. Expertise and experience is crucial. Have your son practice, practice and then practice some more. Simulate adverse conditions, get some experience, and learn what works in the wind and the rain.

It begins with choosing a good location, sheltered from wind in particular, collecting the right materials, selecting good fire starter/tinder material, and nursing the flame until you have a healthy, self-sustaining fire.

You want to have multiple options for starting fire; don't depend on just one tool. There is nothing out there that is infallible. You can assemble a good system for very little money that will be easy to carry at all times. Bic lighter, kitchen matches in a waterproof container w/dry striker, and some sort of metal match/strike-a-light. The cost of tinder is also negligible. These all make good stocking stuffers at Xmas.

As it turns out, I used plain old kitchen matches to light the really critical fires that I needed to light. With a waterproof container, the total cost was well under a dollar.

Ultimately, the best way to insure heat when you really, really need it is to carry a stove and fuel. I spent an unanticipated night in deep snow and if I had not had a light gasoline stove with me, at the very least I would not be sporting all my digits these days. Again, you don't have to spend an arm and a leg to get good dependable stove. I would recommend a Trangia or a Pocket Rocket - at most about $45 with fuel.

This topic really lights my fire so to speak. My first SAR experience involved a search for some Boy Scouts who were unsuccessful in their efforts to light a fire during a storm - definitely a needless tragedy.

But don't focus on gadgets. Make sure they put in the time to really learn how to light a fire when the chips are down.

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#158659 - 12/13/11 12:41 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Dave H]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
In my experience, peizo lighters are reasonably reliable at lower elevations but nearly never work at higher elevations. I've thrown away my last dime on those. For sheer bone-headed reliability, I prefer a flint.

My low-cost suggetion, two Bics--one in his regular kit and a second emergency one stowed in a waterproof container or somehow sealed against moisture. Remove any tot-proofing in advance. Keep some fire-starters with the emergency lighter.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#158660 - 12/13/11 12:46 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Dave H]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
As a scoutmaster, I spend a lot of time teaching fire craft. I think I have learned more from the scouts than I have taught them. Here are some things that they have taught me.

Don't assume they know how to use a lighter. They need to practice with it.
Matches aren't a guarantee. They break and scouts have a hard time learning how to use them.
The ferro rods that are popular with bushcrafters are hard to light for boy scouts.
Scouts almost never collect enough tinder and small wood to start the big stuff. They also have a really hard time telling the difference between dry wood and wet wood.

It takes a lot of repetition to teach boy scouts just about anything, and fire craft is no exception. My older scouts are starting to get it after a few years of teaching the same things over and over. And, they still make the same mistakes over and over again.

So, how well are you with fire craft? Can you start a fire with a lighter in really cold weather, and no man-made tinder? Can you start a one match fire? Can you start a fire with a ferro rod? If you can, then excellent. But, since you are asking this, then I would guess that you are weak on these skills. You need to learn them, and you can then teach your son. It is even better if you learn together.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#158661 - 12/13/11 12:53 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: finallyME]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Patience is key - can't blow too hard on the little wisp of smoke, can't get all excited and add more big chunks, just wait for the flames to catch what's there, then add small pieces, then bigger, and bigger, and pretty soon you have a nice fire.

Knowing where to find dry tinder after a heavy rainstorm is another piece - you can cheat and bring dryer lint, maya dust, fire paste, an esbit tab or cotton balls in petroleum jelly. We usually cheat because we're not scouts. smile
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158664 - 12/13/11 01:27 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: lori]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
I have cheated regularly for the longest time. As a matter of fact, we used to refer to our bottle of white gas for the Primus as "Boy Scout fire starter."

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#158665 - 12/13/11 02:03 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: lori]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
We usually cheat because we're not scouts. smile

Yeah. I'd teach them how to start fires without bringing along their own dry tinder or accelerants. Then I'd make sure they never have to use that knowledge.

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#158668 - 12/13/11 02:41 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: aimless]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
I carry a couple of cheap Bic style lighters (mine came from the 99Cent store) and a box of REI stormproof matches. I highly recommend the matches-they burn like a sparkler, even when wet because they are coated with a similar compound -
http://www.rei.com/product/617046/rei-stormproof-matches

Also, get an old school film canister-the plastic ones or a similar container, take cotton balls, soak them in Vaseline and stuff them in the canister. Great fire starter. I also have a sparker I got at REI, easy to use. I haven't actually started a fire with it yet, but it puts out a big shower of sparks. One of these-
http://www.rei.com/product/783662/ultimate-survival-technologies-sparkie-fire-starter

There are a bunch of videos on YouTube on how to use this one and many other fire starters-
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_qu...1l0.4.3.5-1l8l0

You could put all this stuff in a small kit in a plastic bag inside a small belt pack so that the kit isn't in his pack, but on his person in case he gets separated from the pack-it happens.

There is a Jack London short story called "To Start A Fire" about a guy who gets lost and freezes to death in Alaska because he can't start a fire. Worth reading, if a bit depressing.


Edited by TomD (12/13/11 02:47 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#158673 - 12/13/11 03:24 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: TomD]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Originally Posted By TomD

There is a Jack London short story called "To Start A Fire" about a guy who gets lost and freezes to death in Alaska because he can't start a fire. Worth reading, if a bit depressing.


Is that the one where the dude, after immense struggling and coaxing, actually achieves a flame, only to have a blob of snow slip from an overhanging branch and snuff his fire? Definitely a major bummer. It should be mandatory reading for anyone in the outdoors.

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#158676 - 12/13/11 03:51 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: aimless]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
We had fire building contests in SAR. Cheating is encouraged, but, we never go anywhere by ourselves and always have teammates with the same gear list as I have - firestarting materials are on it.

I have a nebulous plan to take some friends on an overnight where I get them intentionally lost and require everyone to start a fire using found materials and a match. Should be an interesting exercise in triangulation and tinder finding. For further pain and suffering, I might expect them to use a stick instead of a compass to find north and use a bow drill to light the fire.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158682 - 12/13/11 05:06 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: finallyME]
Dave H Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 57
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Thanks for the responses. He does have some stormproof matches and a flint and steel in his pack as well. I have even given him some "wetfire". We have worked on fire starting but as you mentioned it takes a lot of repetition to get through to the boys some times. I will work with him on his fire starting skills. As a den leader I worked extensively with my Webelos on fire starting. Hopefully he will never be it that situation but as always he should be prepared.

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#158685 - 12/13/11 05:43 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Dave H]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
I always carry 3 Bic lighters. NOT the cheap kind. It seems like overkill, but I did have the wheel fall off the one time I only carried one lighter.

If I REALLY needed heat, I'd get in my sleeping bag in the tent. Second choice in wet weather would be to light my SVEA 123 stove which puts off a lot of heat you can get close to.

For a fire, I get squall wood for tinder. That's the tiny dead branches on pine trees.

If that's too wet, I carry lighter fluid with me to prime the stove. (Never put lighter fluid on a fire where a first attempt was made. Soak a flower or clump of grass and then put it on.) If lighter fluid doesn't work, I always have my bottle of gasoline. (I don't recommend liquids for scouts.)

You can also get a tube of fire paste. I find it works best if I put it on a rock or something below the tinder. Otherwise, it tends to melt and run to the ground doing nothing.

If none of these work, I'll go back in the house.
_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#158687 - 12/13/11 06:00 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Dave H]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Another recommendation here for those REI stormproof matches. They're almost impossible to blow out, and they burn and burn. They don't eliminate the need for fire starter if everything is soggy, but you will probably need less of it. I've found recently that regular kitchen matches (which used to work just fine in the outdoors as long as kept dry and shielded from wind) are becoming of poorer and poorer quality and becoming harder and harder to light. When starting my wood stove at home, it seems that almost half the time the head pops off and most of the rest of the time the kitchen matches don't light at all!

With my mini-Bics, I take a pair of needlenose pliers and remove that metal strip over the top, which makes the lighter more effective. It's also important to warm up that lighter in cold weather, since butane doesn't vaporize below freezing. However, I use it only for lighting my stove. (Note that piezo lighters on stoves tend to give out after a couple years of use.) I haven't had much success using a lighter to start a fire when conditions are poor. That's why I carry some of those REI matches in my
"Ten" Essentials kit. My backup to my lighter for lighting my stove is a book of paper matches (they still light fine, unlike the "kitchen" matches) in a small plastic bag. They don't burn long enough for lighting wood, though.

One reason for the knife in the "Ten" Essentials (aside from cutting tape or moleskin for your blisters) is so you can take a small stick and cut "frizz sticks" (thin shavings cut off the stick but still attached to it). Often the wood inside a stick will be dry when all the tiny twigs around are soaked. Be sure, also, to gather lots and lots of tiny twigs and lots of small sticks. You need to have a lot of the tiny twigs (a lot more than you think you do, maybe twice as much) ready for your fire starter or other tinder to dry out, and then you need to feed in little sticks (again, lots more than you think you do) well ahead of need so the burning twigs will dry them out. It's really important to have all this gathered in advance so you're not running around looking for more wood when you should be nursing the fire!

Personally, I rely on my rain gear and on keeping my insulation layers dry (in my pack or on me, which includes avoiding sweating into them) so I don't need to build a fire. I also will turn back rather than trying dicey stream fords in cold weather. I guess I read that Jack London story too many times!

Having used a stove for backpacking for many years, I really came to grief trying to show off my "one match fire" skills to my granddaughter a few years back. Moral: keep practicing those skills! If you don't need them for survival you do need them to impress your descendants! laugh


Edited by OregonMouse (12/13/11 06:03 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#158690 - 12/13/11 06:35 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: oldranger]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I thought about mentioning a candle or a stove for the firestarting arsenal - then I asked myself, "But what do you light those with?"

I just now remembered that there are some stoves (Jetboil, some Snow Peak Giga's) that have piezo self-igniters - they tend to fail easily, but it would make a stove another source of fire as part of the arsenal.

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#158691 - 12/13/11 06:39 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: oldranger]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Yeah, I remember that trick. Had my back turned helping a couple of other Scouts when I heard a "whoomp!" behind me. I turned around to see a rather embarrassed, eyebrowless young man rubbing his now-hairless forearms - but he did have a nice little fire going! smile

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#158694 - 12/13/11 07:09 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: OregonMouse]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
OM, one match skills are vital! At one point in my checkered career I was giving campfire talks, the really traditional kind with an actual campfire. No matter when you lit the fire, you always had an audience. If you took more than one match (this was back when they were still good) your credibility took a nose dives and you got rotten tomatoes all over your uniform...

So one evening I lit the fire and then turned my attention to talking with one of the families (probably the one with the nice looking daughter) when I noticed that the audience was laughing, giggling, and pointing at the campfire. To my horror, the fire was merely smoking. Disaster! I got down on my knees, fussing and fidgeting, feeding tiny bits into the coals, and blowing gently. Finally I got flames again without using a second match. The crowd applauded....

I think you are right about the present matches. REI stormproofs work a whole lot better. The point of using a candle is that it is easy to light and then you have a stable flame that you can use over and over again to get the pile lit - as long as the wind isn't blowing.

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#158695 - 12/13/11 07:32 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: oldranger]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
From my "you kids get offa my lawn!" file, strike-anywhere matches are lousy now. They have smaller heads and the sticks splinter easily. Book matches are both rare and really unreliable. I occasionally run across a small, ancient stash of Diamond kitchen matches and am amazed at the difference. Similar deal with Bics--they have cheaper strike wheels that can unravel and I can no longer find any with an adjustable flame. Also, the flints occasionally disappear by some evil magic. Still better than the generic options, though.

The advantage of a match is you plunge it at what you need to light with the flame on one end and your fingers at the other. A Bic and most lighters puts the flame at your fingertips, which is...suboptimal. I have a metal refillable butane lighter that stays lit with the top open so I can pretend it's a match. I like that. Zippos, of course, do the same but I don't like how they leak fuel.

The pyrotechnic REI matches have a strong flame but don't seem to stay lit when the head is consumed. My favorite Optimus Fire Lights, or whatever they were called, are no longer available. They were fat firestarter sticks with a match head that you'd strike to light, then place in your tinder as a chemical firestarter. Brilliant.

Now, offa my lawn, the lot of you
_________________________
--Rick

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#158696 - 12/13/11 07:42 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Rick_D]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Lighting things with a bic can be a good start in a criminal career - after a few days you have no fingerprints left.

I've been known to light a kitchen match with the bic - doesn't break the match that way!
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158700 - 12/13/11 08:04 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Rick_D]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
I remember those Diamond matches - it was a neat trick in highschool to light using your teeth, zippers...

Heh back then we didn't have the inter-tubes and had to keep ourselves entertained somehow!

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#158707 - 12/13/11 09:40 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Heather-ak]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Yeah, and the high schools weren't paranoid about what kids brought to school. We were allowed to carry small pocketknives (the principal's judgment defined "small" - pretty much all he excluded were switchblades.) And, at least in rural Ohio, if a farm kid drove his truck to school and still had his rifle in the gun rack, the principal didn't lock down the school; he took the kid over to his truck and showed him HIS rifle. Then they talked hunting until school started.

"Get offa my yard, too." smile

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#158711 - 12/13/11 11:33 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: oldranger]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Been a while since I read it, but I'm sure that's the one.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#158718 - 12/14/11 12:10 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Dave H]
PerryMK Online   content
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: Florida panhandle
This got me to thinking, I haven't purchased a new lighter in a while. I like to play with fire.

Being that a lighter is fairly light no matter what one gets, I opted to purchase a butane insert for my Zippo . It stays lit without holding the button down as on a Bic, it is butane so much more convenient than lighter fluid, and has the cool factor written all over it. I need all the cool I can get.

Of course I always have a Bic or two in my pack as they are probably the most reliable, inxpensive and lightweight option.



WARNING R-rated material follows
My Zippo is engraved with the phrase "If you want to make love, smile when you hand me the lighter back." Everyone smiles when they read that.
cool



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#158732 - 12/14/11 03:21 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: PerryMK]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
So, I assume that loaning your lighter is gender-specific? smile

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#158738 - 12/14/11 05:05 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Glenn]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I wrote this down on a scratch pad: "Note to self--do not borrow Perry's lighter." grin

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#158741 - 12/14/11 06:26 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Rick_D]
PerryMK Online   content
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: Florida panhandle
I prefer the ladies, but if that made you smile, well, I have a "don't ask, don't tell policy" about that sort of thing .
laugh


Edited by PerryMK (12/14/11 06:31 PM)

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#158759 - 12/15/11 11:00 AM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Heather-ak]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
When I was in Boy Scouts, we had a fun competition which forced learning firebuilding skills without much instruction.

We were given 2 matches. We had set up the wood so it would burn a piece of twine 18 inches high without touching it after the fire was first lit. Then we had to cook a pancake on it and eat it. (We ate a lot of almost raw pancakes.)

_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#158783 - 12/15/11 05:00 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Gershon]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By Gershon
When I was in Boy Scouts, we had a fun competition which forced learning firebuilding skills without much instruction.

We were given 2 matches. We had set up the wood so it would burn a piece of twine 18 inches high without touching it after the fire was first lit. Then we had to cook a pancake on it and eat it. (We ate a lot of almost raw pancakes.)



I am always looking for fire building contest ideas. That one sounds good.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#158789 - 12/15/11 05:59 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: finallyME]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By finallyME
Originally Posted By Gershon
When I was in Boy Scouts, we had a fun competition which forced learning firebuilding skills without much instruction.

We were given 2 matches. We had set up the wood so it would burn a piece of twine 18 inches high without touching it after the fire was first lit. Then we had to cook a pancake on it and eat it. (We ate a lot of almost raw pancakes.)



I am always looking for fire building contest ideas. That one sounds good.


I think the way we did it was in teams of 3. One would collect all the wood, kindling and tinder. When he was done, the second would build the fire. The third would cook the pancake which had to be flipped without a spatula. The cooker would eat the pancake. (Which was great fun if it landed in the dirt.)
_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#158806 - 12/16/11 09:14 AM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Gershon]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By Gershon
Originally Posted By finallyME
Originally Posted By Gershon
When I was in Boy Scouts, we had a fun competition which forced learning firebuilding skills without much instruction.

We were given 2 matches. We had set up the wood so it would burn a piece of twine 18 inches high without touching it after the fire was first lit. Then we had to cook a pancake on it and eat it. (We ate a lot of almost raw pancakes.)



I am always looking for fire building contest ideas. That one sounds good.


I think the way we did it was in teams of 3. One would collect all the wood, kindling and tinder. When he was done, the second would build the fire. The third would cook the pancake which had to be flipped without a spatula. The cooker would eat the pancake. (Which was great fun if it landed in the dirt.)


That does sound fun. Some of my scouts have a hard time flipping pancakes WITH a spatula. Taking that away would make a pretty exciting contest.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#158809 - 12/16/11 12:08 PM Re: Reliable lighter suggestions [Re: Rick_D]
Frankendude Offline
member

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 69
I have a windmill lighter in my emergency bag. Very cool, and in my experience, very unreliable. Tuning the flow adjustment can help at altitude but I've never gotten it to work reliable enough that I'm comfortable using it as anything other than a toy. Being an untreated gearaholic, I've had several of them. When I need something other than cool, like when I really want a fire, I pull out one of my two baby bics and a couple pieces of fatwood that I've cut in half and split into thin pieces, about the size of a cigarette. Those fatwood pieces can be shaved into nice tinder. And I have a half dozen stormproof matches with a couple striker strips in my kit as backup.

Like Oldranger, I carry a stove as a primary piece of gear, even on day hikes. If I'm by myself I usually take my whitebox stove and 2oz of heet, or if I have the wife, its my snowpeak giga which I think is about $40.

Finally, practice the craft. The hardest for me is getting a fire going in wet conditions. I'm still not 100% under those circumstances.

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