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#158377 - 12/07/11 01:23 AM Killing the Newbie
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Tongue in cheek, of course.

I debated where to put this but expect that the thread will be more constructive (I hope) for the newbie (or the restarting newbie) than it will be a trip report, tho it is also a trip report.

I took "Haven't been backpacking since I was 20" guy on his inaugural 50+ years old going on an overnight trip backpack. I got my Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone adjusted to fit him and loaned him everything else, except a Neoair which we borrowed from someone else. We also took a blue CCF as he was already identified as Mr. Freezemeister aka "I'm cold before everyone else everywhere."

I deliberately made the load as light as I could possibly make it, knowing how the older male on a backpacking trip after 30+ years can get. I plotted the trail to be both short and lacking in any hills, only small incremental rises that gradually took us up that 60 feet of cumulative gain. I chose the Flat Frog trail at Henry Coe out to Frog Lake (picture a mudhole of a stock pond surrounded by oaks full of wild doves). It was a whole three excruciating miles of hiking.

He was loaded down with a tarptent, a full length NeoAir and one of my 22 oz down quilts, which has gotten me to the mid 20s repeatedly over the past few years. To that he added a ton of snack bars (I didn't realize how many he'd squirreled in that pack), four bottles of water, and a six pound jacket that I later found out had about two pounds of junk in the pockets. Fortunately some of that was a jar of ibuprofen.

I, on the other hand, carried the three pound tent, my alcohol stove and liter titanium pot, the other quilt, my NeoAir, my clothes, and a good bit of food - probably six pounds, enough to keep me going for five days.

I had planned a second night but gave him the option to go back the next day if he wanted. Was a good option to have.

It's unusually cold in Henry Coe right now, and it got dark before 5 pm. I forgot the sheet of thick foil I usually put under the stove. It took too long to boil water - until I mumbled something about forgetting my sheet of foil, at which point he produced a wad of foil from his bag of paper towels (!) and we eliminated the "cold ground heat sink" problem. We had hot tea, chili over rice (homemade and rehydrated) and a variety of snacks to stoke the fires before turning in. I lay there listening to him toss, turn and groan about being COLD COLD COLD COLD COLD COLD COLD.... I was a little chilled, but not cold. Getting up for a pee and coming back, I found myself plenty warm - should have taken a walk before bed anyway.

And so the night passed, as I slumbered 15 to 30 minutes at a time, until he began to thrash and wail about being cold. I kept instructing him how to tuck in the quilt - until I found out he was wearing the six pound jacket and trying to use the quilt, which was far too bulky for anyone's good, and if it had been worth its weight it would have sufficed and he could have used the quilt as an elephant's foot instead of trying to drape it over him. No way in hades can you tuck a Jacks R Better normal size quilt over a jacket like that. It's one of those synthetic 200-pockets type of things you find in the hunting gear.

In the morning, to add insult to injury, I found out that he had actually wetted out the down in two of the baffles of the quilt. All the while he's complaining about cold, he's sweating copiously and also purposely breathing down into the quilt to warm it up! It didn't occur to me to tell anyone not to hot box themselves that way.

The interior of the tarptent was soaked. My tent? bone dry. There wasn't any dew, we were camped on packed dirt, and when I picked up my tent, even the underside was barely damp. I didn't even bother to stake out the back of the fly on my tent and I had no condensation. This was the driest night I've had this year - the ground was dry, the air was cold. The tarptent was much more ventilated than my tent, and it was still wet all over inside. He even managed to not get the door of the vestibule completely untied - part of the side of the Sublite Sil was gapped and the cold breeze sweeping into the tent.

As for the actual hiking... within the first mile he was showing the signs of being tired, slowing down, leaning on the poles a lot. In three miles he was exhausted. Setting up camp he was fumble-fingered and slow, impatient with the gear, not wanting to walk to the pond for water, not wanting to do anything. After a rest he did walk with me to filter water and struggled up the short hill back to camp. He started to complain about the cold at dinner and didn't stop until we were back in the car the following day, after it warmed up enough to have heat. He had thick insulated ski gloves, a coat he said he used to shovel snow in the midwest in, a fleece hat, a synthetic base layer, two shirts, and two pairs of socks - and a quilt that works for most people into the high 20s and for others, lower.

Day temps were in the 50s, by the way. It was probably in the low 40s - high 30s around 6 - 7 pm. I'd estimate we had about 30F at the coldest, and it got colder in the creek bottoms, as there was no ice on the pond but the creek (series of puddles) had ice in it.

On the way back we took a shorter route that, while initially steeper, let us get back to the car with half the hiking distance. I tore apart my Aarn pack and fitted it to him (this is a great pack to have when working with noobs), and stuffed most of the gear and weight into the Nimbus Ozone (this is also a great pack when working with noobs), which swallowed all of it and had more room to go. By the end of the first mile he was asking where to get an Aarn pack. The Ozone put too much weight on his pelvis and the Aarn (if you are unfamiliar with body packs ala Aarn they are worth a google) balanced the load on his body so he could stay upright. Hiking with the Ozone, he fell over after bumping into a tree limb because he was so tired and off balance. I think if he had not lightened up and used the Aarn I would have had to come back to get the second pack.

I throw this out for general discussion with the following guesses:

I took someone who hasn't backpacked, and hasn't been very physically active other than kayacking once or twice a month. He is also diabetic. These two factors probably weighed in very heavily in seeing him become chilled and staying cold, and being unable to recognize how much he was sweating - he can complain of cold and yet, touching his skin, I think he is radiating more heat than I am - I feel cold by comparison. Health issues must have something to do with the issues with condensation.

The pack MUST FIT. MUST fit. Must FIT. And, it must carry the weight on your frame in a way that is comfortable for YOU. Asking what brand of pack to get is like asking what clothes you want or what you want for dinner - it is determined by what works for you specifically, and no one else. I have always found the Ozone comfortable as have a number of others I've put it on - it nearly killed my friend with 25 lbs in it, despite fitting him well.

Even a light pack that fits doesn't always offset the total noobness. He did fine on 8 mile day hikes with the hiking group. He felt he was ready for a backpack. He complained of being unable to get his legs to work faster and really felt it in his thighs. This type of work is very different than what you'll have at the gym. Our SAR team works up and down stadium steps with a 20 lb pack on to build the legs for endurance on the trail.

The older you are, the more difficult it can be to start backpacking. And the more important a comfortable pack (and comfortable pack weight) becomes to your safety. Had he tried this by himself his exhaustion would have made setting up camp too hard. I had to do most of the work. While he didn't experience an altering of personality, he was definitely not quite up to par, and a bit slow to think.

Tomorrow it's time to launder both my quilts - it's been a good long while and it's time. Plus, he wet out my down!!! Yikes. And if he decides to try again, I may help him find a better backpacking jacket... that thing he had was pretty bulky and not at all compressible. It had to ride draped over the pack and the second day, it rode on my pack. I could feel it sliding - it actually took me off balance!
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"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

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#158389 - 12/07/11 12:52 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
Glenn Offline
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Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Lori: great post - was the newbie overweight (goes along with diabetes, sometimes); that can make a difference, as I know from personal experience.

Comment about condensation triggered a memory of my niece and brother's first trip: loaned them a Hubba Hubba; despite my advice, they insisted on sleeping inside sleeping bags, with tent fly on and fully zipped, in July in Ohio. Next morning, niece asks, "Did it rain last night? Our tent's all wet." I explained how condensation worked, and that tent would have been wet outside if it had rained, not inside. Also told them they could keep the tent.

I'd elaborate, but I'm leaving in a few hours for 4 nights on the AT, so I'm a little short on time; try to write more when I get back.

But great story, well told!

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#158390 - 12/07/11 12:59 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
Lori, what is the noobs reaction to the trip now? "Pure misery and never do it again" or "that was fun" or "Holy cow, I will be better prepared next time" or what?

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#158391 - 12/07/11 01:11 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
BrianLe Offline
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Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
Great lessons in all of this, and certainly not just for the "newbie".

The point it most reinforces for me is that gear and "process" plus experience are all intertwined. I've seen and read about various "ultralight" classes put on where a local enthusiast will trot out all of their cool ultralight gear and rave about how wonderful it is to have a lighter pack. The problem is that a lot of his audience won't have his (okay, typically it is a 'him' ... :-)) experience, and won't have his knowledge and just in-camp "process" assumptions. Certainly to include some of the things that you describe.

IMO the best 'ultralight' class would include an overnight field trip, a "let's try it out now together" outing. And indeed, one that's not a lo-o-ong way from the parking lot!
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#158394 - 12/07/11 01:58 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: Glenn]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Newbie is not overweight - he actually looks to me to be almost underweight. He's one of those who eats well, salads and lean meats, no junk food. He'll indulge sometimes and says his blood sugar levels stay pretty low overall. Since he's type II he is not insulin dependent and does pretty well maintaining himself.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158398 - 12/07/11 02:32 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: OldScout]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By OldScout
Lori, what is the noobs reaction to the trip now? "Pure misery and never do it again" or "that was fun" or "Holy cow, I will be better prepared next time" or what?


He's thinking hard about it. Mostly because I was available for the post mortem to say, no, that gear did not work for you for these reasons. You are not used to backpacking. You are not used to having weight on your hips and ongoing friction on your feet. You have no experience in getting your body to cooperate with a 20" mattress to provide you a good night's sleep - I do, and I also have experience with the quilt.

I don't think he'll do it again, tho. He was initially gung ho and wanting to do trips with the group at large... this was my way of helping avoid his embarrassment on one of those trips. He was blaming the gear, of course, without having any real concept of what was going on, and despite the fact that I was eight feet from him having none of the same issues.

I don't think a sleeping bag would have made any difference for him, either. He gets uncomfortable and instead of purposeful movements to adjust he thrashes, sits up, and any warmth dissipates - you'd have to put him in one of those Selk bags to combat that behavior.

This was one of those trips where I recognize just how much experience matters... I know not everyone can deal with the quilts or the lightweight tents, but frankly, I see the same thing no matter what gear the noobs use - they're not sure how to use double wall tents or to adjust the backpacks they have no matter what brand. And frequently have no patience to learn, as if this should all just be automatic and effortless. Sort of like people who fish vs. fisherman/women: people who fish buy salmon eggs and a hook and use it in every waterway. Fishermen will know what kind of fish, how deep, and which lures have the best chance of working for that waterway.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

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#158401 - 12/07/11 02:53 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
A 50-year old diabetic who is not in top physical shape is very likely to have blood circulation issues. Add in a lack of body fat and staying warm would be more difficult for your friend than for the average joe. This, at least, makes sense to me. Whether I'm right in this particular case is another matter.

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#158403 - 12/07/11 02:55 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: aimless]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Pretty much what he came around to after waffling about how uncomfortable the gear was for him... the strange thing is how hot he is to the touch when he says he is cold.

I encouraged him to talk to his docs about it further. He does like to car camp and do other outdoor stuff.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158413 - 12/07/11 06:50 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1189
Loc: Madison, AL
Originally Posted By lori
...He does like to car camp ....


That's odd. You would think he would run into the same problems car camping. What sleeping gear does he use car camping?

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#158415 - 12/07/11 06:59 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: BZH]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By BZH
Originally Posted By lori
...He does like to car camp ....


That's odd. You would think he would run into the same problems car camping. What sleeping gear does he use car camping?


A six person tent he can stand up in, two comforters, a huge rectangular sleeping bag laid open, two CCF pads over a large air mattress with a pump to fill it, and his full sized pillows.

He doesn't car camp in below freezing weather. That's when the popup tent trailer with the heater and stove comes out to play.

By contrast, the tent I took with us this trip is actually the one I use car camping when there are no trees in the campground I can hammock in.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158423 - 12/07/11 08:05 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
RHodo Offline
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Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 60
Loc: Texas Hill Country
Originally Posted By lori

A six person tent he can stand up in, two comforters, a huge rectangular sleeping bag laid open, two CCF pads over a large air mattress with a pump to fill it, and his full sized pillows.

He doesn't car camp in below freezing weather. That's when the popup tent trailer with the heater and stove comes out to play.


Wow, I'm really surprised that he went. This adds awholenother (that's a southern word) dimension to your statement "knowing how the older male on a backpacking trip after 30+ years can get".

This is why I tell people that their first trip should be to a state park walk-in site with the gear they intend to take into the woods. Their goal is to last the weekend using only the stuff in their pack. No going back to the car, the store, no yogi-ing, nothing. If they find this to be a challenge, they're probably not ready for the back country.

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#158427 - 12/07/11 09:27 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
Jimshaw Offline
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
sounds like a quilt failure ruined the trip. Not that the quilt failed, but it is a specialised piece of gear and it failed him because you didn't show him how to use it properly and obviously it requires more than common sense. (Like wow who'd a thunk you'd have to tuck under the edges???) If you're gonna take someone camping and lend them your gear, be sure they know how to use it. smile
Jim
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#158428 - 12/07/11 09:29 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: Jimshaw]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
I think you missed out on a few other details of the cold issue there... like, he was wearing a coat nanook of the north would be jealous of? and still colder than cold while I was warm in the exact same setup while not wearing a ton of clothing as well?

Tucking in a quilt assumes you are not wearing so many bulky clothing items that it won't go around you. He asked what I was wearing to bed - I told him I was wearing a shirt and a fleece. He decided to add to the simple scheme considerably and didn't mention it til about 1 in the morning.

There are people in the world who will never be able to generate their own warmth to the degree that comfort in a sleeping bag can happen. I know a lady with chronic thyroid issues who falls into that category.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158442 - 12/08/11 12:57 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
Steadman Offline
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Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Virginia
What temperature was he acclimated to?

Our Church had a picnic this last SEP, and the temperature dropped from in the 80s to the lower 60s. It wasn't actually cold out, but we all felt cold because of the drop in temperature.

Similarly, I've worn a winter coat in a room air conditioned into the 80s when the outside temperature was in the 100s, and had snowball fights in bare feet after winter weather had been around for a while.

Just wondering if acclimization was a factor. Thank you; this has been very informative and interesting.

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#158445 - 12/08/11 01:40 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: Steadman]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Dude puts on a wetsuit and goes kayaking in the winter. But, there is a vast difference in cold and active, and cold and sitting around camp. Many layers and a thick jacket did not help him sitting in camp eating dinner, before the temps dropped. I offered to him that I would pack up and we would hike back to the car before midnight, even. He refused to go. Wanted to see what it was like.

This is where I am going to refer back to the futility of expecting mental toughness to be all you need to be a backpacker. You need a lot more than that. More important to understand the gear you need, how to use it, and recognize your physical limits. I would argue this guy is pretty tough - yet he lacked the physical conditioning to do miles on trail with a backpack, and he lacks some metabolic regulation that would help him stay warm. He stuck it out for the night because that was his goal, and he says he learned a lot from the trip and is actually thankful that I took him. But he is frustrated with himself for not being able to do it comfortably.

It's really difficult to struggle with medical issues that keep you from doing what you want to do, or things you used to do that seemed so easy then....
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"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

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#158521 - 12/09/11 10:07 AM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
finallyME Offline
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Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Great story. Thanks for sharing.
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#158523 - 12/09/11 11:37 AM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: finallyME]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
It repeats itself with varying results often in the hiking group.

For some reason, there have been very few women doing that - tho there is one who is a thorn in my side, who seems to be shopping activities. She has tried a number of the outdoor groups locally and always seems to have the same results.... She seems to have settled into a pattern of indicating she is coming and backing out at the last minute, tho. An indicator of learning from mistakes, I hope.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#160203 - 01/12/12 12:25 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
AS an addendum to this thread, for the edification of anyone reading.

The newbie featured has thanked me again for his experience, because after pushing his physician he has seen a specialist who diagnosed him with a staph infection and a reaction to some combination of the medications he's been taking. He had a rash that was quite extensive that he's been living with for months. It turns out that now that he is being treated for it instead of being repeatedly told by doctors that it is just psoriasis and handed topicals, he is feeling much better and finds that he has been warmer overall because now that his skin is getting back to normal his temperature regulation has improved a LOT. And now he is being treated for a potentially very serious condition he had no idea he had.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#160214 - 01/12/12 02:09 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
OregonMouse Online   content
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Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
That's very interesting, Lori! No wonder the poor guy was having problems!

Hopefully once he's recovered, he'll try backpacking again!
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#160224 - 01/12/12 04:24 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
Heather-ak Offline
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Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
WOW! Hopefully he'll give backpacking another try after he kicks this.

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#160227 - 01/12/12 04:45 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: Heather-ak]
Glenn Offline
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Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
And hopefully he'll try it with you. I think he probably found a near-perfect teacher to help him learn our sport (hobby? pastime? whatever it is.)

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#160228 - 01/12/12 05:09 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: Glenn]
wandering_daisy Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
When someone reacts SO far from normal, some underlying condition is probable. I am glad he and his doctor figured that out. I am very cold-blooded myself. I really have trouble generating heat once I stop moving. I do not have much excess fat for insulation! For me, it is critical that when I enter my sleeping bag, I am really warm. I usually take a brisk walk right before bed. I am the coldest at first and it may take two hours before I finally get all the air space warmed inside the bag. It does not matter if it is 45 degrees of 20 degrees- I am cold until I get the bag warmed up. I also start out with a balaclava on my head- otherwise I get the cold neck syndrom. My husband does well in a blanket; I would never consider it- need my sleeping bag with hood and draft collar! The big jacket may have contributed to coldness. It both over-warmed his core (causing sweat) and failed to allow his body heat to warm the space under the blanket too.

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#160519 - 01/16/12 07:50 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Originally Posted By lori
how men of age 30+ can be...


hmm.. I resemble that remark.. grin

Interesting that it may be a result of his infection.

I've had people come out with me who have had a bad time, and people who haven't. I'll give you a flip side story just for comparison.

A year and a half ago, recall I had a couple good friends get married on west coast trail. They told everyone about it about 6 months or more beforehand, and I was helping organize the whole thing..

As the event became "public" to our circle of friends, one of my fellow computer nerds expressed that he *really* wanted to go. Now, he's short, and pretty darn large - larger than me even. not in great shape at all.. He also lives in the middle of the flattest part of the USA.

Now, to his credit - we would often at events have a dayhike, he loved to get out, and would come as far as he could but the uphills would kill him - in the past I knew this and would take him with the group on a dayhike, and string my hammock in a nice place when he got tired and let him sack out in it till we got back. I knew he liked the hammock. he just couldn't walk uphill or a lot.

So.. I laid down the law to him. I told him to go to REI and get a pair of vasque breeze XCR's, and two pairs of hiking socks with liners, and he had to start walking - every day - if he did this, and got to where he could walk every day and walk steady for three or four hours without stopping, I would get him down the trail, but he had to do his part. He worried about losing weight, I told him to forget it, and just walk.

I got him to get nylon pants that fit, and appropriate poly underwear and clothing, along with a campmor silnylon tarp. and trekking poles. told him to find a daypack, put it all in it, and keep walking.. he did.

I asked if he was picky about his food - he wasn't. so since I was yoyoing the trail, I told him he would be bringing two food bags, identical, which one was for me (my resupply) and one was for him. He was fine with that. With that stuff, He got my spare Granite Gear Virga, a blue foam, My synthetic exped wallcreeper to use as a quilt, my speer hammock, a stove and canister (he had aquired a pot and spoon). He started the trail with about 26-27 pounds on his back.

He had the time of his life. it was challenging, but he made it and enjoyed himself. He draqgged a little bit on one of the longer days (17 km from tscowais to cribs for the wedding) and for the last 5 km or so of that day kind of had my boot up his butt. however he took it well, and arrived in time for the wedding, and had a great time the rest of the time.

Now yes, any of us who hiked with him had to slow back a bit and get him through the tough stuff, but that's the price you pay. all in all he wasn't *that* slow, and managed a perfectly normal WCT itenerary on west coast trail.

I really think a lot of it is attitude.. he *really wanted* to do this trip, he was committed to it, and he did very very well. - for someone whose first ever backpacking trip was west coast trail!







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#160528 - 01/16/12 10:01 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
spwhite24 Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/11
Posts: 20
Loc: Bucyrus, OH. USA
Hey everyone,
this thread made for interesting reading. It highlights the caution needed in introducing a newbie to backpacking.

I will say as one with limited experience, that I am so glad that someone made the effort to introduce me to this great sport. I in turn have introduced others on a much smaller and cautious scale ( overnight, 5 miles with my three daughters ages 7-13) They love it!!

I like the post Phat made. Very good approach to evaluating the person as well as their desire, their drive. Great idea having them walk each day, training. I may even use that with my girls in preparing for longer and tougher trails. I live in Ohio, so I mix in treadmill with regular walking to simulate climbs. Not to many mountains in Ohio. laugh LOL!!

So I guess, share your passion, but be cautious when doing so.
Later everyone,

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#161120 - 01/25/12 05:41 PM Re: Killing the Newbie [Re: lori]
palameto Offline
member

Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 37
Loc: East Texas
Well, I am planning to take my boyfriend on his first backpacking trip this weekend. It will be a short overnight (10 miles total). I hope I do not encounter some of the same problems! He is fit, but has not backpacked before. He is also notorious for being cold when I am not - insists that having the heat in the house set on 67 is "freezing." We are taking the dog too (who has been backpacking before), so I suppose he can try to shove her into the sleeping bag for extra warmth. wink We're in East Texas - temps are supposed to be around 40*F overnight. He is going to use my old pack, and hopefully we don't run into too many problems with fit. I am going to try to keep the weights light; since it is just overnight, I think we should be ok. Here's hoping it is not a miserable weekend!!

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