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#158305 - 12/05/11 08:23 PM Re: Super Shelter Test [Re: billstephenson]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I suppose the antithesis of that is the tee pee with the fire ring in the middle and a smoke hole above. Down in New Mexico I saw round rooms maybe 8? feet deep and 12? feet in diameter - at Indian ruins. There was another small round hole in the floor near the wall "where the spirits could come up from the underworld", and it is presumed that the whole thing was covered with a wooden roof, and that the inhabitants had come together in said underground hole and lit a fire in the smaller hole. I question whether carbon monoxide is a problem in wood fires. However I bring this up say that fire inside is a pretty ancient idea, AND apparently you can even live in a hole with a fire.

However Bill - what are the weight trade offs?
Jim smile
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#158306 - 12/05/11 09:17 PM Re: Super Shelter Test [Re: Jimshaw]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
These underground rooms are specialized ceremonial areas known as kivas. They are still in use in modern pueblos. They contain a fairly efficient ventilation system - a ventilator shaft opening into the room at floor level, a low masonry deflector wall between the shaft and the firepit, and the opening directly above the fire hearth. These features can be found in prehistoric ruins dating back almost 2000 years in the American southwest.

Some kivas with intact roofs are known, as well as habitation rooms with firepits and intact roofs. What is interesting is the massive quantities of soot deposited on the roof beams. Air quality must have been pretty bad at times, but people probably did not spend a great deal of time within these rooms. No idea what the CO levels would have been. Some things are just beyond the archaeologist's knowledge....

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#158307 - 12/05/11 09:55 PM Re: Super Shelter Test [Re: oldranger]
Samoset Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Newnan ,GA
I believe the natives had it rite . When they built tepes and brought the fire into them. They could keep warm condensation low and never have to freeze to heat the place back up a bit. wink
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#158331 - 12/06/11 12:54 PM Re: Super Shelter Test [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
what are the weight trade offs?


You can make that shelter with any 10'x10' tarp, so if you already carry the tarp and rigging the additional weight will be the reflective surface used and the front panel. I also used a ground sheet. (these last two could be made from one piece of material). These don't have to be visqueen, but I do think the visqueen is a good choice for the front panel. Tyvek might be another, but I have no experience with that.

For this test I used two of the cheap mylar emergency blankets you can get at Wal-Mart. Here the brand is called "Ozark Trails". They weigh about 45 grams each.

I think the "SOL" brand emergency blankets are a few inches bigger and a tiny bit heavier. They are a lot more durable, and they don't tear if they get a puncture. They are made of a different plastic than the all silver mylar type. Same thing as the visqueen I think.

Either way, you're only adding about 3-4 ounces of weight with the reflective surface.

The floor and front cover were made of 3 mil visqueen, those two 5'x7' pieces together weigh about 1 pound. I used the heavier visqueen for these because I wanted a ground sheet tough enough to resist punctures, and the front panel tough enough to resist sparks, but mostly because I had those two pieces from a previous test.

The 1 mill visqueen 10'x10' tarp I made weighs around eight ounces. That includes the duct tape reinforcements and grommets on the corners and centers of each edge.

So all together, that comes in at around two pounds. Add whatever the stakes weigh that are used to pin it down to that.

All that said, if I make one to use on a trip (and I probably will soon) I think I'll make it all with 2 mil visqueen, which I'd guess would end up close to the same two pounds, maybe a bit less, because I'll also probably make it with a 9'x9' tarp, which would be plenty big enough for me alone and all my gear.

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#158346 - 12/06/11 03:37 PM Re: Super Shelter Test [Re: billstephenson]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Bill,
I've been thinking of building a "super super shelter" on Lava Deck up in the flow behind my house. Its about as isolated feeling there as a mountain peak, especially in a snow storm. It might be sort of similar to your construction except it might be made of 4'x8' sheets of 1 inch styrafoam aluminised on one side. I had imagined an internal heat source, maybe a US tent heater wood stove, and a transparent side facing the Newberry Monument to watch it snow.

Of course it would hardly be a tent nor would it be portable, but it is a plastic super shelter shaped design that will use heat from a different source and it will actually be insulated. It might be fun to hang a fire pan in front of it, but in any wind it would not be a wise idea to have a campfire, unless theres snow. I was thinking that an electric heat source might be cool and that I have a generator out back that could be employed though its a tad noisy, I would need 250 feet of extension cords otherwise shocked.

Anyway its also a chance to experiment with some inexpensive "homeless" homes.
JIM smile
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#158348 - 12/06/11 04:09 PM Re: Super Shelter Test [Re: Jimshaw]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
If one does use an open fire, wind direction is very important. Facing the front of the supershelter parallel to the wind will allow sparks, etc... to not blow onto the shelter. One can use fire-retardant plastic sheeting as an additional precaution. 4 mil, I think I have seen.
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#158350 - 12/06/11 05:58 PM Re: Super Shelter Test [Re: Jimshaw]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
Finally,
Keep watching - the same guy ambushes a warthog and shows a still beating python heart. Are we sure this guy is representative of our groups camping needs? smirk


Jim, that was the first episode of the first season. I have seen all episodes of both seasons. I have also seen almost all of the youtube videos of both of those guys. Do I believe everything they preach? No, but that don't mean I can't learn something. You need to watch the other episodes. The first one was kinda benign.
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#158353 - 12/06/11 06:41 PM Re: Super Shelter Test [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I've used the styrofoam you're talking about. I have 5/8" on the ceiling of my pole barn/home office. I never thought about it before, but think that'd make a great shelter.

You could probably make a little wood/charcoal stove to put in one of those. If you vented the fresh air to the stove from the outside, and used a chimney pipe, you'd probably be able to keep heat in there really good. Might get by better than Bob Cratchit on just a few briquets grin

You could even make some double paned visqueen windows for that shelter. That would be pretty cool.


I'm thinking of making a bivy style tent with the bubble foil. It won't pack up very small, but it will be pretty light, and should be really warm. If I can get the pack size down to that of a blue foam pad it might work pretty good.

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