I am new to this and I am aware that fit is very important, but I am looking at getting a large backpack. This is just a starting point and in the beginning I will be somewhat overpacking because I will be going with my son.

So my question is more about build quality then comfort.

Teton sports fox 5200 vs Alps cascade?

I am not taking on the AT or trying to set land speed records. I just need a large inexpensive pack.

Perhaps you could expand on what 'quality' means to you in this context? For some it might simply be durability/toughness. For others perhaps quality of design as well as construction, and that in turn could imply more or less of various types of pack features ...

Having worn out a couple of packs, my personal opinion is that for all but the really lightest of packs, people put too much emphasis on durability (a la Backpacker magazine toughness tests). I.e., I suspect that for most packs and for most people using them, just a bit of care during use will mean that the pack will last many many years.

That said, perhaps it's different for really inexpensive packs; perhaps someone else (and perhaps not in the lite gear talk forum??) can give you feedback there.

I agree about the forum selection. I was looking for a general gear forum. If someone has a suggestion as to where else I could find the information that would be fine too.

In terms of quality I would say I am refering to whether or not the product does what it says. Does the rain fly soak thru in 5 minutes of heavy rain? do the compression straps stay compressed. do the zippers stay zipped. when packed does the pack look like the seams are gunna give.

Comparing the two mentioned, the Alps is better quality.

But, fit is the most important. If they don't fit you, you will not like it. I will tell you my recommendation, the same that I tell my scouts. For your first pack, especially one that you need to carry more stuff for your son, I suggest an external frame. Look at the Kelty or Jansport brands for proven quality and cheap price. Shoot, even the Outdoor Products externals are decent.
Now, internals are pretty cool. And, if you are willing to go to an outdoor store and have them fit you for a pack (it won't be cheap), and you are willing to spend money on a quality sleeping bag that compresses small, then an internal is perfect.
But, if you don't have the money to blow on a pack the fits perfect and a sleeping bag that actually fits inside, you need an external. An external is more forgiving for beginners. You will be able to strap on any sleeping bag you get, no matter the size. You will also have a much easier time adjusting it to fit you.

Thanks for the info. I alread have a good sleeping bag. Its a TNF( not sure the model but I beleive its +20). It compresses down pretty good and should fit into the bag compartment. The sleeping bag was a donation from a friend and it the only item I have that is backpacking ready. I will look at external packs.

I've got a cheap pack (Academy) I bought for use as a winter daypack. The problem with it isn't quality, it is actually built really well, but it lacks the adjustability you find in better packs, so it doesn't fit quite right. It is fine for day hikes, but would be annoying on long trips or heavily loaded down. It cost about $40 and is remarkably well made for that price. A friend of mine took it to India for a couple of weeks. She is shorter than me, so it fit her pretty well.

btw, by winter daypack, I mean a pack big enough to hold enough for an overnighter, including extra clothes, food, stove, shovel, bivy sack and other gear.

So, when you get your pack, make sure it fits right in the beginning because you may not be able to change it much.

My experience is quite similar to TomD's. For about 5 years my main pack was a cheapie, no-name backpack that cost me $45. The build quality was surprisingly good and I set it aside for a lighter pack, not because it wore out. It is still going strong. However, it was completely unadjustable and it was only happenstance that it fit me quite well and comfortably. I was lucky in that.

If you check the home page of this site you'll find lots of articles on gear selection, listed in the left hand column. They include info on fitting and measuring packs.

The most important qualities of a pack are fit, fit, fit. It needs to fit the load you carry (which is why it's best to get your pack last and try it on with all your gear inside), but most important, it needs to fit you comfortably with the load you will carry inside it. Pack fit is almost as individual as shoe fit, and just as important.

When you say "going with your son" do you mean going along as an adult leader in scouts (or similar organization), or do you mean taking an under 10 year old backpacking, or do you mean going along with an older child who wants to try backpacking out, or drag Dad along?

Understanding what you want to do might help as well.

yes my son is under 10, yes some of the trips will be with the scouts, yes i am an adult leader and will be going on hikes with the pack/troop, yes i will take my son car/backpacking, and yes I will be also going on solo or group backpacking without son or scouts.

I understand fit is an issue, I am not looking for a Range Rover. I just need a F-150 with a camper shell.

Trying to help get you there from here. The right answer is more complicated than you think, but I think I agree with finallyMe.

If you plan on having to carry group/patrol gear (or some of your son's personal gear) an external frame is the way to go. You can tie almost anything onto it, and then walk up the hill - so long as you can bear the weight. Kid is getting owned by the tent he has tied onto his pack - take it off and add it to yours with little problem.

Kelty is the leading manufacturer for this sort of pack. I use an external frame because I like how they carry, because I used to ignore weight as a factor, and because I take my 6 and 8 year old kids out in the summer and act as the pack mule to make those trips happen.

If, instead, you are looking to only carry your own gear (clothes, tent, etc), plus food looking at a decent internal frame is the way to go. You'd want to pair this with a lighter sleeping bag, clothes, etc (ref FinallyME's comments).

Right now I am a scoutmaster, and I have two sons aged 9 and 5. When I take them, I take an external frame. But, mostly because I have to carry almost all of my 5 yr old's stuff.

Here are some observations with scouts.

12 year olds can carry all their own stuff. Depending on the kid, an 11 year old should as well. However, sometimes you find 11 and 12 year olds who are not used to walking with weight. This just means you shorten the distance, and try to reduce their weight. Reducing their weight is not too hard, give some of it to the older scouts. A 15 year old can carry a lot more than you think.
The hardest thing for young scouts is fitting them to their pack. More often then not, their mom buys an internal frame with little adjustment capability, and it is almost always too big for them. Their mom also buys a cheap sleeping bag that is too big for the pack. I do have a small external (by Kelty) that fits my 9 year old. It also fits my small 12 year old scouts. Because it is external, it also fits whatever sleeping bag they have. Anyways, you didn't ask about a pack for your son, but I figured you might want to eventually.

Here are some interesting numbers

Teton Sport Fox 5200--> 5.5 lbs $80
Alps Cascade 5200 --> 5.5 lbs $140 ish
Kelty Trekker 65 --> 4.9 lbs $110
Jansport Carson --> 4.75 lbs $110
Outdoor Products Trailhead --> 5 lbs $40

You didn't mention it, but I've watched both Scouts and adults get owned by their packs because they packed it wrong, mostly by putting weight the balance of their weight low down in the packs. Proper weight distribution can make larger loads, especially proportional to body mass, much more tolerable.

I'd be wary of the supposed weight of the external frames. My Kelty Super Tioga weighs 7+ pounds (carries nicely, but a little too heavy). It is worth weighing them in the stores, or at least checking multiple sources on the weight.

You could always consider a large alice pack. Apparently they can be WAY overloaded if that's what you are into.

From what people say it will require a bit of modification to make it comfortable, but, from I have read, it isn't too difficult.

And as a plus, you can get one, with a frame, and an extra medium alice pack for your son all for 60 bucks shipped on ebay.

I usually do pack research, try some on at REI, then make a "short list" of which packs that would work, without regard to price. Then I keep an eye on sales for several months. This way I can quickly snatch up an internet sale when it appears. The "good deals" usually sell out quickly.

REI "garage sales" are great if you can manage to get to one. I bought a Kelty external pack at a sale for $20. I replaced the very heavy shoulder and waist straps with ligher ones and it works great and now weighs more than a pound less than originally. If I want to reduce the pack weight even more, I take off the original pack bag and simply strap on 3 large stuff sacks or zip-duffles to the frame. This is the old fashioned "poor man's" pack. The zip duffles make clothing easier to access, but a simple stuff sack is fine for your sleeping bag and ground pad.

Also look at Goodwill or other second hand shops. Seems like everyone in the 70's had external frame packs and many now end up at Goodwill. The pack and straps may heve to be replaced but the frame should be fine.

Oh yes, weigh them in the store for the correct weight. The Super Tioga (it looks like it is no longer made) is listed at 6 lbs 13 oz.

My external frame pack, The Mont Blanc, is only 3 lbs 10 oz. That big yellow beast even has a hinged L frame. So I concur, weigh the pack (no matter whether it is external or internal or frameless) to get an accurate weight.