I'm looking into getting a new sleeping bag and I am on somewhat of a budget, like under $200. My trusty old slumberjack 30degree I've had since I was 9 needs to retire to the back-up position. I am looking for something lightweight, packs pretty small and in the 20 degree range.

I saw a few decent reviews for the Kelty Cosmic Down +20, and it seems like a great bag for the price. Any other suggestions would be much appreciated!

What is your priority? you get to pick two of three characteristics - light, warm, cheap.

For the lightest, most long lived, and most compressible bag for the rating you want - 800 or 900 fp down is the way to go. Unless you are hiking for weeks in 90-100% humidity.

For the compromise, a lower quality down bag will be heavier and pack not quite so small, but will be cheaper. There's a Campmor 0 degree that's probably 10-20 degrees warm - the 20 degree Campmor down bag is probably a 30 degree bag in practice. The Kelty Cosmic you mention is similar. 600 fp down has more feathers than the more expensive bags.

Synthetics will be bulkier for the rating, and wear out in a few years of frequent use. There are places and reasons to have a synthetic bag - folks often prefer them for winter.

I am ultra-cheap, so rather than replacing the bag every few years, I sprang for a 800 fp down quilt. It weighs less than a bag and has no chance of a zipper jam, and has been great down to the expected mid-20F range. For $250 it was a steal. I anticipate years of use out of it.

I just got a Kelty Cosmic 20 degree down bag. You can get them for between $80 - $100 online. They are an economic duck down bag. The reviews are really good. I have never had a down bag of any kind; when I got mine in, I took it out of the bag and seriously thought "this is a joke." I shook it a good bit for loft and let it sit for a few minutes. It lofted up good and I climbed in for a few minutes and came out nearly sweating. Weighs in at @ 2lbs, 10oz. depending upon size.

REI outlet doesn't have any down bags on sale right now - they probably will in the spring. I got an REI Mojave bag that way, and am somewhat satisfied with it.

Campmor has several bags in the under $200 range. The Marmot Sawtooth would be a top choice for me if I wanted a new bag in that price range based on its reviews - I have no personal experience with it.

If you are a more normal hight (fit into a regular bag) swing by Dicks and see if they still have the Marmot 15 degree down bags. I almost bought one, but I was 2 inches too tall for the bag - they were cheap, nice bags.

None of these suggestions are nearly as nice as what Lori is suggesting. You get what you pay for.

There's this thing when you get your first down bag/quilt ever that makes you look at them like, no way. Not enough fill in that to keep me warm at home.

You should have seen the 800 fp quilt when I pulled it out of the 7 x 7 box it arrived in, and the look on my face. Noooooo way is that keeping me warm to 20F. Yet I shook ice off it in November, after staying warm all night as ice formed on the lake.

You just don't go back to cheap down after that.

A really good down bag is one item worth digging down deep and spending for. It will last for years, with decent care and give you a fantastic return on investment with many comfortable nights. There are many ways to save money and cut corners on other key items in backpacking gear, but this doesn't apply to sleeping bags. Make your two choices light and warm, and the cash you shell out will be a good investment.

Thank you for all the help! I am also now looking into sewing my own down bag/quilt. I am no seamstress but I think I can pull it off. I have never used a quilt before though. Can anyone explain the differences/advantages of the two?

Making your own down item is an experience! I suggest googling for tips on working with down. It's not easy.

Quilts are like sleeping bags, minus the zipper and hood. Most will have a sewn in footbox, some allow you to open the quilt flat. I prefer the latter. Jacks R Better and many other cottage gear quiltmakers do quality work. LeighLo does hybrid down/synthetic quilts, others have synthetic models as well as down.

Thanks a lot.

I've been lurking here a while and always enjoy the wealth of information provided on this site. I also really like your blog lori, I've been checking it out for a while now.

Sierra Trading post got in the Vaude Ice Peak 150 35 degree rated 650 FP down bag that got a Backpacker Review Vaude Ice Peak 150 2010 Backpacker Magazine editor's choice.
http://www.backpacker.com/gear-guide-apr...-bag/gear/13913

Seeing the bag's wonderful 18 ounce weight, I almost pulled the trigger with a 40% off $150 coupon yesterday, but then noticed in reviews that it is a snug fig for bigger folks. At 225 lbs, I suspect it would be too snug for me.

This bag doesn't quite meet your 20 degree requirement, but if you are on STP's email list for their coupons, you can pick up the bag for around $100 or less and have a lot of money left from your budget to add a vapor barrier/liner for colder weather.

-Matt-

Vapor barriers aren't for above-zero temps, I think. Check out the Stephenson's Warmlite page and Mark Verber's page for some further info on vapor barriers.

I've always just kept a space blanket as back-up warmth but have rarely needed to use it. It worked just fine for me, and they are dirt cheap so you can always use it to fashion a bag or clothing of some sort if need be.

Vapor barriers for sleeping bags are a separate thing - in very cold temps, you don't want your own moisture (you give off about 12 - 14 oz of moisture from your skin, excluding sweat) to get into the insulation. I have an underquilt with a mylar liner for subzero temps.

Emergency bags are just that, for emergencies, because you will be anything but comfortable with them. You'll survive, but sleeping in one is ... well, I'd have to be completely exhausted to manage it.

I wouldn't want to sleep in one by itself, although I have on a few occasions. I would wrap myself in it and get in my bag. I tended to overheat and had to take most clothes off that that point to prevent sweating but it worked fine. I folded it back up twice and still haven't needed to get a new one.

I won the ice peak from STP and next week I'll be able to give a review of size, etc.

Nice Win! Will be watching for the review..

Thanks for the help everyone. After much debate I went with a Marmot Sawtooth 15F. It was marked down a good bit at REI to $159, making it a great choice for my price range.

Any criticism or feedback on the Sawtooth would be welcome though.

I've been researching sleeping bags for months now and have narrowed it down to one choice, I think. Here are my criteria:

1. Must be made in USA. (All new gear I get will be made in the USA if possible.)

2. Down

3. Lightweight

4. 20 degree rating

I've narrowed it down to the Western Mountaineering Ultra-light.

Any comments?

Why did you choose down over synthetic? I've been thinking about getting a new bag, but haven't done any research yet.

Down is warmer, compresses more and weighs less. To me a synthetic bag feels like my body warms it. Down feels like an electric blanket. I became convinced when I picked up a down comforter at the thrift store that is real warm.

(Choosing Western Mountaineering is mostly from what Lori has said.)

I sure can't fault your research! I have the Alpinlite (the wide version of the Ultralite), and have been delighted with it for two years now. I have two friends who got the Alpinlite on my recommendation, and after their first trip into 20 degree temps a couple of weeks ago, they're equally delighted. Another buddy has the Ultralight, and he has nothing but good to say about it.

The full down collar (front and back) is one of my favorite features. The two sets of cords (one controls the collar, the other controls the hood area) sometimes are confusing inside the bag in the dark, but one is flat cord and the other is round, so you figure it out pretty quick.

Synthetic is heavy, wears out in a few years of usage (compressing it breaks down the fibers over time), and doesn't compress as well. Down lasts for decades when cared for properly, compresses well, higher fill power compresses better than lower fp and is warmer (given the same weight of the fill). There are times a synthetic makes more sense but since wet synthetic is a miserable thing (it stays more dry only if you are thinking in terms of what will work better in a very humid environment, dunk both kinds in water and they will be wet and cold) despite the hype...

I am too cheap and go out too often to do anything but down. Spend once, live warm.

I've carried that exact bag (WM Ultralite) on a lot of trips and have slept a lot of nights in it, perhaps 200 nights overall, and it's a wonderful bag. I've just recently sent mine back to WM to get refilled, and overstuffed in fact a bit. Not that it isn't durable; I think that's a reasonable thing to have to do to any down bag after 4000 miles or so of use.

I've used it down into the teens with puffy clothes inside to beef up the overall temp rating. I've slept with it many a night fully unzipped in sort of "comforter" mode.

I'm not saying that it's the only good choice (!), but it certainly is a fine choice.

The one thing that I suggest w.r.t. down bags is to consider getting one of those "ultralight" dry bags, and size it up. I.e., get a light dry bag that's a bit bigger than needed for your sleeping bag (just look at the stated volume in cc or liters for the provided stuff sack and increase that some). Doing this allows me to compact the bag a bit less when my backpack isn't filled to the brim, yet with the dry bag approach I can just roll it further down to decrease the volume at need.

No matter what the insulation, you have to keep it dry! A soggy synthetic bag is no warmer than a soggy down bag (been there, done that, posted the story here several times, as those of you who've been around here longer know).

With a down bag you do have to be a bit more careful protecting the insulation from your body moisture and from condensation inside your shelter or bivy. Especially when it gets below freezing, your body moisture may condense or even freeze on the inside of the outer shell, which means the moisture will be in the down. That's where a vapor barrier comes in handy. Just don't wear anything more than a base layer inside the vapor barrier--your puffy jacket, etc., needs to be outside.

Re the Western Mountaineering Ultralite--I have one and love it! I especially love the draft collar, which I can snug up around my neck while leaving the hood a little more open for ventilation. However, the Ultralite is a pretty narrow bag. Check the girth measurements of the bag (on the WM website) against your own (measure shoulder girth over your arms and with your insulating jacket on). It may be that you'll need the wider version of the 20* bag, the Alpinelite. While you don't want a lot of dead air space to warm up inside the bag, you do want to be able to wear all your insulation inside the bag without compressing the down!

Well I admire you for your number 1 criteria.

I read up a lot on down bags over the past few weeks and it seems that the Western Mountaineering bags were consistently what everything else was compared to. The "Gold Standard" if you will.

If you can swing it, I don't see how you can do any better. I sure want to hear what you think about whatever you get though.

I am not a sleeping bag guru. This is not a challenge, but a genuine question .

I looked up the JRB and WM offerings and it seems that for a similar temperature rating they are of similar weights. For example:

JRB High Sierra Sniveller quilt
Temperature Rating: 5°-10°
Weight: 29 ounces

WM Versalite sleeping bag
10° F
1 lb 14 oz (30oz)

I would think that the ability to close it up could make a bag it warmer than a quilt should the need arise. When the temps are mild the bag could be used like a quilt. What am I missing?

I have similar bag criteria to the OP. I haven't seen anyone in the thread mention the Marmot Arroyo. Thoughts?

No specific thoughts on the Arroyo, but I have used the Marmot Hydrogen and Helium before "upgrading" ("sidegrading"?) to the WM equivalents, the Megalite and Alpinlite. The Marmot bags were the best I'd used until then (including a 1980s TNF Blue Kazoo, back when North Face was the Gold Standard), and I had no complaints.

The biggest difference I found between them and the WM bags, strictly based on perception and not objective measurement, was rating accuracy. The Marmot bags seemed to be pretty much dead on with their ratings - a 30-degree rating kept me warm at 30, but left me chilly at 25. The WM bags seemed to be good for another 5 degrees: at 25, I was still warm in a bag rated for 30. Also, the WM bags just seemed a bit more "deluxe" in the detailing, while the Marmot was just a fundamentally well-made bag. I can't point to any specifics for this; the WM bags just felt more luxurious when I climbed in them. As I recall, for similar ratings, there was no significant difference in weight or compressibility between a WM Extremelite series bag and a Marmot Element-series bag. In the end, I just like WM better, for no objective reasons.

Thanks for the replies. I may consider the Alpine for me and get the Ultra for my son.

Now to scrape together the money. Anyone in Colorado want to buy a car?

Actually, your body is the only source of heat, regardless of what you think is going on. Bag efficiency is based solely on creating dead air between you and the outside environment. We have had this argument over and over, but the physics of it haven't changed since the first animal hide was used as a blanket thousands of years ago.

I took my new (to me) down bag to A16 to get it cleaned and while I was talking to Peter, the salesperson who helped me, he wrapped the bag over his shoulders. After a couple of minutes he said, hey, I can feel how warm this thing is. That's what it is all about.

Gershon, I would start looking for a used bag. I used Craigslist Reader, a free search program made by CraigsPal. This program will search any and all Craigslist sites on the planet. I found my bag using it. I've seen a number of WM bags. The prices people ask on Craigslist are usually better than on eBay, but be patient, some amazing deals show up. The only catch is that Craigslist sellers aren't always willing to ship, which the usual on eBay, but if your email looks legit and you are willing to pay in advance (I use PayPal), some will. I've bought several things that way and sold a few as well.

A bag seems a really personal item, but you'd be surprised the number of high end bags for sale that people say they bought then rarely used. The Marmot I just bought looks virtually brand new. The seller had both sacks for it (cotton storage bag and stuff sack) and even still had the original hang tag for it.

Tom,

I understand bags don't create heat, I was just explaining how it felt to me. Thanks for the tip on Craigslist.

In my experience - not with the Sniveller, but with the 3 season Hudson River - if your quilt matches your body proportions you are able to tuck in down the sides and sleep warmly.

This is easier in a hammock, but I have been racking up a lot of ground nights with the quilt and done pretty well even when I roll and have to re-tuck. I never sleep well on the ground no matter how warm, and I sleep better not having the bag twisted up around me until I'm strangling. Sub freezing, I'm a quilt gal all the way. Subzero is going to be totally different.

I think what you are missing is the flat factor - the quilt truly opens flat, and can be used on a bed. Which I have done. JRB quilts don't have footboxes sewn in. Also, there is the customer loyalty factor, and... the quilt is cheaper.

Thanks for the input. I can get the Marmot for about $100 off of retail, so if it's a similar quality bag, I'll likely go for the more affordable option.

The Marmot Never Summer 0 degree (a 600 fp bag with EN comfort rating of 2F) is on Sierra Trading post - with the coupon ending today, it's $140. 3 lbs, 14 oz, as I recall.

NOT to argue or disagree with Lori here, just a somewhat different way of looking at the same question --- my immediate response was "you're not missing anything". I.e., when zipped up in mummy mode, I'm convinced that for many (most?) people you are going to get more overall warmth relative to weight carried with a zipped up bag. I, for one, don't remain perfectly still once I'm asleep.

My first down bag was a WM Summerlite, and then the Ultralite followed as a later purchase. The Summerlite was (at the time at least) the lightest (warmth for weight) option that had a full zipper --- so that indeed I can open it up fully to use in quilt mode. It's wonderful, I think, to have a light, warm, full-zip bag that can vary from fully open "quilt mode" to fully zipped mummy mode, where just your nose and mouth are exposed on the colder nights.

To be clear, I don't mean to knock quilts, I just prefer the flexibility of moving from one setup to the other as conditions warrant. At one point I seriously considered getting a JRB No Sniveler or similar on the theory that I might then leave my down jacket at home, but what stopped me was the realization of how often on colder nights I do all my camp chores with my lower body in the sleeping bag and my upper body out of the bag --- but wearing a down jacket or parka.

I still use a Marmot bag from the early 80s that unzips to form a flat quilt, along with a zip in sheet so that it can become a double bag. I bought it for its versatility, especially potential SAR applications. Most of the time I use it as a conventional bag, but the full zip capability indeed makes it extraordinarily versatile.

All the assumptions that you can't get coverage with a quilt are just that.

Like I said, I get into the 20s fine. And if I weren't comfortable you'd bet I'd be in a bag. I find that it's easier to wrap up in a quilt around camp - I don't care as much about my legs as I do about my torso, and if I had it to do over again I might have gotten a wearable quilt plus the JRB sleeves and had full range of my arms (I have to hold the regular quilt in place).

But, quilts aren't for everyone. There are still a lot of people who believe in what they know, they should stick with what's comfortable for them mentally as well as functionally. Lots of folks look at my gear and scratch their heads - some of them lecture me - I keep using it for many reasons, including claustrophobic tendencies. Regardless of all other considerations, for some the ability to kick off the quilt in a hurry is a plus. Currently, one of my quilts is on my bed. Mummy bags aren't good for that either....

Also, consider: JRB has been in business for some time now. Product line has changed as they go along, adding more quilts, more hammock specific quilts, more versatile quilts... and they still sell cold weather quilts rated down to 0. Do small business sell products that don't sell well? Why do I not see many for sale - used quilts on the forums most likely to reach buyers (backpackinglight, hammock forums)?

Which is not to say you should try one... I'm pointing out things that I observed that led me to try one despite being skeptical. My first quilt is a Ray Way - that worked, and it's about the same weight as one of my JRB despite the bulk of it. But it's just not as comfortable.

I was thinking about getting a RayWay quilt to try it out. The price is right and I figured I could deal with the bulk. If you decide to part with yours we can talk price. (ooh, an opportunity for you to get some cash right before Christmas (smile)) But you might like have a backup or loaner handy.

I have used an army poncho liner with and without the poncho. Similar idea to a quilt I guess. I also have a small rectangular summer sleeping bag that packs up almost as small as a Nalgene bottle. It unzips to a flat blanket and I like to have it for travel situations. I stayed in hostels and roadhouses in Alaska where it came in handy.

But like you said, we all have to do what is right for us.

Perry, the Ray Way I have is the warmer one, supposed to work to 20F. I use it as a loaner, mostly, but have thought it might be paired with one of the down quilts for colder weather - it's the same size as the JRB give or take an inch. Though the way it's made the corners are rounded and there's a five inch strip of nylon for assistance in tucking it around you.

Currently it is riding around in a storage bag in the trunk of my car with the cables and the stuck-in-a-snowbank survival gear. Otherwise I would consider selling it to you. I have to admit there is a good bit of sentimental value to it, as it was actually my first DIY project.

They are good quilts for the price and kind of fun to make. The heavier version packs to about the size of a basketball, if you don't over-compress it (Jardine is a bit insistent about not over compression, his stuff sack design for the quilts gives them plenty of breathing room).

To loop back around to comment...

I have been shopping the Marmot line pretty heavily over the past few weeks, looking for a bag for SAR - in 3 seasons I use my quilts, I don't winter camp, but SAR is not necessarily about that. Base camp or wilderness bivouac, I am anticipating needing warmer gear without piling all three quilts in the backpack.

The Sawtooth you have is rated 15F but the comfort rating on the EN posted for the bag is 26F. (That's the comfort rating for women, the number for men is a bit lower.)

For my needs I surveyed the 0 degree offerings - of the 0 degree bags they list, I find variation in the EN ratings ranging from 17 to 0 - meaning not all bags are created equal. Rather than picking up the Marmot Teton 0 degree EN rated to 17F for comfort, I got the deal mentioned above on the Never Summer 0 degree, EN rated to 2F for comfort. I am anticipating that with layers and the bag I might get to -10 comfortably, and survive -20.

While the Never Summer I ordered is only 600 fp... it's not my preference to go out in winter at all, or use a bag. But the price and the rating are what they are, and at a later time if I find winter camping agrees with me and my economics improve, I may donate the bag to another SAR volunteer and upgrade.

You should post back and let us know how the Sawtooth does for you - I bet you will be happy with it. Marmot's higher end bags get great reviews.

The Western Mountaineering bags can't be beat. I used my Megalite in 24 degrees and was warm, it's a 30 or 35 degree bag.
Santa brought me a WM Versalite 10 degree bag for Christmas.
I looked but could not find a sale on WM bags. They sell so good I was told they never have a sale. EVERY sales person I have talked to at a high dollar outdoor store or online store has a WM bag, usually two.
Go ahead, pull the trigger!

I forgot. I sold a car a few months ago and the next payment is in January. (It was to a friend and I don't get to into keeping track of money.)

So Tuesday, I order the bags.

Oh, I read Chinese gear is likely to go up a lot next year due to increasing salaries in China. Made in USA will be more competitive.

Second on the Western Mountaineering. Once you go top of the line you never go back. Outside of moving to quilts, I have pushed my WM Caribou 35* to 18* inside a light bivy and with a good Montbell Thermawrap set w/ fleece socks and beanie. It is a lot of money, but they hold their resale value very well and will literally last you a lifetime with proper care.

I'm a fan of high-quality down bags or quilts. I really like the Jacks R Better quilts and Western Mountaineering bags. Save your money and get a good one or two and they will last you a very long time. I bought a WM MegaLite bag on eBay for 1/3 off and sold it on eBay two years later after ~30 nights' careful use, still in great shape, for more than I paid for it.

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but Enlightned Equipment makes great quilts for a reasonable price!