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#156459 - 10/29/11 03:15 PM Don't give rude people power
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Backpackers as a group tend to value quiet, solitude, and nature. They can be sensitive when they encounter other people with less refined sensibilities. This forum has a common thread of instances when backpackers are incensed by what they perceive to be rude or illegal behavior.

There may be lots of rules and permits in place to regulate backcountry areas, but the reality is that enforcement is very difficult. Wild areas by their very nature attract people who do not care about rules.

My brother has travelled the world on the road to find out. He has been teaching me, not to give rude people the power to upset me. Just ignore them and live in the world as it is. People do not deliberately try to ruin your outing, they just have a different frame of reference.

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#156460 - 10/29/11 04:07 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: ppine]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1764
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Quote:
Wild areas by their very nature attract people who do not care about rules.


In my experience, those who don't care about the rules are usually confined to the first few miles of trail. The real slobs and jerks are generally too lazy to walk very far. They can, however, be horse packed into the wild where they can make a mess and break all the rules wherever they happen to be.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#156462 - 10/29/11 07:53 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: Pika]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 1785
Loc: Napa, CA
I am not sure about the threads here from people who are "incensed." I think the people here may notice these things, but often more amused than incensed.

You are right ppine...there is usually little point in getting worked up about it. Just lead by example, and walk away if possible.
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#156477 - 10/30/11 10:31 AM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: ppine]
Fiddleback Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 478
Loc: Northern Rockies
Originally Posted By ppine
...He has been teaching me, not to give rude people the power to upset me. Just ignore them and live in the world as it is. People do not deliberately try to ruin your outing, they just have a different frame of reference.


This may be dangerously close to 'ignore the rule breaking' or 'let the trash/damage remain.' If so, I'd refute the philosophy.

FB
_________________________
"...inalienable rights...include the right to a clean and healthful environment..." Montana Constitution

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#156489 - 10/30/11 10:56 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: Fiddleback]
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Fiddleback,

The reference is to frame of mind. To be upset by someone else's actions is to punish yourself. You can pick up the trash and overlook the transgressions. There is rarely anyone there to enforce "the rules".

I have always had trouble with the concept of "wilderness management". A man's true ethics are revealed by his behavior when no one is around.

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#156490 - 10/30/11 10:59 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: Pika]
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Pika,

I cannot see the logic in "horse packed" lazy people causing problems. Packing horses in some ways is more work than backpacking. Most nimrods can only go with an outfitter that should be able to keep them honest.

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#156492 - 10/30/11 11:28 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: ppine]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 1785
Loc: Napa, CA
Originally Posted By ppine
Fiddleback,

There is rarely anyone there to enforce "the rules".



I do regularly report backcountry transgressions to the nearest ranger station on my way out, and the rangers have consistently thanked me and followed up.

Does that mean they always find the people I am reporting? Nope. But I still report them...and the rangers still follow up.
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balzaccom

check out our website and blog: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/home

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#156507 - 10/31/11 09:18 AM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: ppine]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1764
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Ppine,
There are responsible horse packers and there are slobs as well. I have worked in areas in Washington, California, Utah, Colorado and Idaho where horse packers have left piles of cans, empty bottles, deer and elk heads and innards, feed sacks and sheet plastic behind for others to clean up. To be fair, I have also seen the same sort of thing done by backpackers but usually on a much smaller scale. The important difference, in my mind, is that horse packers can carry more stuff in to be left behind and they can carry it in further than do most slobby backpackers. And, during a 40 year career in resource management, I have seen far more damage done to fragile mountain areas by horses and their packers than by backpackers. Again, there are responsible packers and there are the slobs. I'm talking here about the slovenly, lazy 10% not the folks who do volunteer trail work and search and rescue support.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#156509 - 10/31/11 09:44 AM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: ppine]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
I refuse to give you the power to determine how I feel about anything.

Incensed is a pretty strong word. It usually applies to me when I'm dealing with someone who is intentionally abusive to other people. I'd say I get upset when I come across someone causing some sort of injury to something or someone I care about, say, being careless with food storage in habituated bear country, but I sure wouldn't say incensed.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#156517 - 10/31/11 02:08 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: Pika]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Perhaps we can say that there are slobs and considerate people. Both types backpack and both types use pack trains.

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#156554 - 11/01/11 12:05 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: oldranger]
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Oldranger,

You are the voice of the turtle. If we need a negotiator I want you to step forward.

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#156639 - 11/02/11 02:34 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: Pika]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3915
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By Pika
In my experience, those who don't care about the rules are usually confined to the first few miles of trail. The real slobs and jerks are generally too lazy to walk very far. They can, however, be horse packed into the wild where they can make a mess and break all the rules wherever they happen to be.


Pika, that's been my experience too.

Originally Posted By lori
I refuse to give you the power to determine how I feel about anything.


Lori, I think ppine's observation was made in general and not pointed at any one or more individuals here. His point is valid though, complaining or getting angry is seldom productive, and it seldom does a thing to solve a problem.

Sometimes being proactive is not always the best option either. Sometimes it's just wrong. A pretty good example of that can be found in a discussion I was recently involved in on a local hiker's forum. I was fairly well torched for pointing that out by a few members there who did seem to react much as ppine describes. They perhaps had good intentions, but their actions (or reactions) were not very well thought out. You can read it here.


_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#156642 - 11/02/11 04:04 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: billstephenson]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By billstephenson


Originally Posted By lori
I refuse to give you the power to determine how I feel about anything.


Lori, I think ppine's observation was made in general and not pointed at any one or more individuals here. His point is valid though, complaining or getting angry is seldom productive, and it seldom does a thing to solve a problem.




You misunderstand - that wasn't me responding in a personal way. That's a statement of fact - I have long since refused to allow anyone to tell me how to feel under any circumstance, and that is the right anyone and everyone has - your feelings are your own, and no one has any direct control over them, really. What you control is how you react to what you feel.

If ppine wants a "correct" response to his posts he needs to say what he means. I don't play guessing games. While I suspect he means behavior and not emotions, I don't know that so I respond to what he says. I have been inaccurate in guessing what his real intent is in other threads.

It is impossible, if you value the wilderness and its preservation, to not be angry at what you find out there sometimes. A measured and calm response is far more likely to be effective, however, so that's what I generally make with the end result in mind. From correcting someone throwing plastic and other trash in our campfire to reporting something to rangers, I see no reason to react out of anger with a kneejerk response - it's only going to create another problem.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#156647 - 11/02/11 04:50 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: lori]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2803
Loc: NorCal
Attitude and behavior are intertwined like strands of a rope--and the two are generally inseparable. I'd challenge anyone to read Wandering Daisy's Trinity Alps trip report and opine that she should have been sanguine about the behavior and attitude exhibited by the yahoos she encountered.

Louts often are harmless and merely annoying in their disregard for others, but my observation is those folks who inflict harm upon the backcountry, sometimes to the point of being an actual threat to others, are always from the cohort who act as louts.

Quoting Woodrow Call:

Quote:
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it.
_________________________
--Rick

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#156688 - 11/03/11 12:08 PM Re: Don't give rude people power [Re: lori]
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Lori,

To reiterate, do not let rude people (or those you perceive to be rude) have the power to upset you.

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