Hi all. I'm looking at going on a first backpacking trip and I am totally clueless. I have done short day hikes (like, 6 miles and under), but have never camped or used a pack before.

Other concerns: I live in Michigan. Which is flat. MT is apparently not flat. Peak elevation on the trail will be about 10k feet. I have no perspective whatsoever on what that means for me, physically. All I know is it's somewhere between flat and Mt. Everest. Not all that helpful.

I am so clueless I don't even know what I don't know at this point. I have almost a year before this trip, but am starting to think about it now, mostly because I'm geeked already.

The tentative plan is: 26 miles, east rosebud trail (aka the beaten path) in MT, done sometime late July to mid-August. I'd be going with 2 people who have done the hike once already. 2 of us will be newbies in every sense. I'm a 29 yo female, not overweight, but just slightly out of shape from inactivity (stay at home parent to a 5 yo).

Instead of rambling on any more, can someone tell me what other info would be relevant in order for you all to provide some guidance?

Also, I'm sure there are other threads that can provide some helpful, somewhat generic info to me so you don't have to re-write entire threads. I have been reading articles, etc. online, but being such a novice, most of them are way over my head. I need a Backpacking for Idiots type book and/or discussion!

TIA!

The good news is, you have a year to prepare. Usually people start to do things a few weeks before the planned trip - it's sort of beyond anyone's help by then.

I'd find a buddy and plan a single night trip somewhere, at mid-elevation - somewhere between 6,000 - 8,000 feet. Rent some backpacking gear (you can do that, get a sleeping bag and pad, tent, backpack and stove) and take some simple food - doesn't even have to be freeze dried special meals, don't bother with worrying about that yet. Sandwiches and snacks will get you through two days of hiking fine. See how you do with something 5-7 miles out and back to the car.

My concerns with someone like you would be 1) are you really going to like backpacking? and 2) how are you going to do with elevation? Because if you haven't hiked up to 9-10k before, that could be really hard, and potentially dangerous (there is a thing called altitude sickness, and sometimes people have symptoms as low as 5,000 feet). Especially if you haven't built up some endurance for the trail.

Keep dayhiking as much as you can, look at the gear lists and articles in the left column here at backpacking.net (did you see those already?) and read up on the threads here in the Beginners subforum. There's a lot of info here already.

Welcome! lori has already given you much excellent advice.

It is probably too early to address this, but here goes... when the time comes that you are putting together your pack, choosing clothes and gear for this hike, fight as hard as you can against the urge to put things into your pack because you 'might need them'.

This is common for beginners, who feel uneasy about facing the unknown and end up taking many items they don't need just for the psychological comfort they provide. They throw in too many clothes, too much food, and gear that never gets used even once, on theory that 'this sweater isn't very heavy, so why not'.

There is just one drawback to this approach: you're going to be lugging that stuff up and down mountainsides, in thin air, and every part of your body and mind will know how many pounds you are carrying. Be kind to yourself and keep your pack as light as you know how to. When you are on the trail the wisdom of this will become utterly clear to you.

Happy hiking!

First you should get some experience backpacking. Short 1-2 nighters over the weekend. Heck your 5 y.o. could even come along if the trail is short (check the subsection on backpacking with kids!). This experience will get you used to the equipment and (as noted above) used to knowing what to leave behind.

In terms of elevation change, living in the LP is no excuse. It is the net sum of the amount of time hiking uphill that matters. It is just as hard walking up and down many small hills as it is walking up and down one big hill. The sand dunes along Lake Michigan would give you a cardio work-out that you would be hard press to match even at elevation. Heck cross the bridge, there are plenty of hills in the UP (where I grew up).

Knowing how you are going to acclimate to elevation is a more difficult problem. I think the Porcupine Mountains is the highest point in Michigan. Its probably pretty far from you and its not the high (2000 Ft). If you can't get to elevation before you trip, get to your destination a few days before the hike so you can see how your body acclimates. Also read up on what to do to prevent altitude sickness.

I've read up on the trail. It looks quite interesting (which means HILLY. If you go south to north 2/3 will be downhill.

The review I saw said most people take 5 days which is a long time for a first backpacking trip. There can still be freezing weather there at that time of year, and possibly some snow.

Have the ones who invited you research the trail and see if there is a way to get off it everyday.

Ok, that's the bad news. You CAN do it.

Backpacking for idiots:

Break it down into modules and solve it one problem at a time.

1. Sleeping
2. Shelter
3. Clothes
4. Eating
5. Warmth
6. Staying dry
7. Hydration
8. Packing
9. Hiking.

Let's pick sleeping. You will have a sleeping bag. For that weather probably rated to 20 degrees. It can't be too expensive unless you are rich. But it should be a quality brand. Which one? I'll leave that to the experts here.

Too keep it simple, I'd suggest shopping at REI. If you become a member ($20 for life) everything is super easy to return even without the receipt. They say you can return it for life. But don't just go and see what they have in stock as this time of year, their camping supplies are a little short.

I'll start it off with an example. Others will have better choices.

sleeping bag

Weight will become a big factor. Try to keep the bag below 3 pounds. Around 2 pounds would be even better.

Yes, it's expensive, but cheaper than 3 nights in a motel.

Once you have the bag, sleep in it. At home on the floor. In the backyard on a tarp. Then you will be familiar with one aspect and can come back for the next chapter.

Gram Cracker

Start with the easy things. Make a reservation for dinner at the Grizzly Bar in Rosco. They are pretty famous around here. 26 miles doesn't tell me much. Is that 13 miles in and 13 miles back out the same way? What lake is your destination? How many days? Is the middle day a day hike up to 10,000 ft. or do you plan on camping up there on the rocks? If you come to Billings (3200) for a day, then go to Rosco for dinner and camp at the trail head (6200) the night before the hike, it would help with altitude problems. Hills at home (or long stairs) should help with the rest. It has snowed on me above 9,000 ft. up there in mid summer, but it blows through pretty fast. A 30 degree bag is good for me, but that means the rating has to be accurate. For most bags off the shelf, I would go with a 20 degree bag. Are You fishing or just hiking? Are you sharing a tent etc, or trying to pack solo? Bring bear spray. Get it in Billings. Are you good with sleeping on hard ground, or do you need practice sleeping on a skinny slippery mat? Water is the most important thing you will need. Fortunately, you should not need to carry much. A cheap squeeze bottle with a .1 Micron filter is all you need if you pick your refill spots carefully. That means away from the trail on the uphill side. Give us more details for more good advice.
Good luck!

You've got time to do three things-get yourself in shape for hiking, buy appropriate gear and clothes and learn what to do. For getting in shape, you can do walks around your neighborhood wearing your boots or shoes you plan on using and a pack loaded to the approximate weight you will be carrying. Water jugs will work for the weight. Start slow with short walks and work up to longer walks.

Read-The Complete Walker by Colin Fletcher, often found at your local library or available from Amazon and other booksellers. This is the "bible" of backpacking. There are other good books, but this one has all the basics in it. Fletcher died a few years ago, but the book carries on with a co-author.

As other members have said, don't buy gear at random, buy your pack last (you buy a pack to hold your gear, not to fill up with gear you bought and consider each part of your gear selection as part of a system, like building a house. You don't buy construction materials just because they are on sale, you buy what you need. Same idea.

Altitude-this could be a problem. They only real way to adjust to altitude is to be there. I know this from living at 12K for a year or so. Not everyone acclimatizes the same way. Getting as fit as you can will help.

As a fellow Michigander I can tell you that the elevation is going to be your biggest problem. Try to team up with some locals and do a couple of trips with others. I live in Grand Rapids and there are quite a few backpackers in this area as well as some folks who organize trips for beginners. Take a look at the local North Country Trail chapter. Some of them do trips and you will meet like minded folks.

As far as buying equipment, stay away from the big places. There is a small outdoor store here where you could spend some time with some very knowledgeable folks.

Wow. Lots of replies. Thanks all!

I'll try to address some things you brought up.

One thing is that I'll have very little control over the itinerery because I won't have a car. I'll probably either be riding in with my (other) stepbrother or I'll be taking Amtrak and then catching a ride with my dad/stepbrother a few hours to the trailhead. This means that I don't have any idea (at least, not yet) of how early I will arive, what kind of training I can get in there before we go, etc. I do know it won't be more than a day or two since my husband will have to take off work that whole time to be home with our daughter.

I have no way to get to any "real" elevation here in my state. Realistically, I also won't be able to get up to the UP before then, either. I have done Sleeping Bear Dunes. (In fact, my daughter did it at age 3, not quite 4. She is one tough kid; I don't know how many miles it was to Lake Michigan and back, but she walked the whole way there, wind blowing in our faces, sand in our eyes/noses/mouths; then when we GOT to Lake Mich. the sky turned dark and a nice, cold rain blew in... it was a long, cold, wet, windy walk back. We did carry her for much of the way back because the poor kid's lips were blue with cold. We are lucky our daughter still loves us after THAT one.)

Anyway, I saw that the recommendation for the trail in MT was something like 3 days. We are going to take 6 to 8 days to do the hike. I believe the first day will be 8 miles to Rainbow Lake and may be the most difficult stretch of the hike. So, this is not a hike halfway in and hike back out; it's a hike through.

I haven't yet figured out if I'm sharing a tent with anyone or not. I'd kind of like to just for comfort (not to be alone), but we'll see. Right now, the plan is to do this particular hike and to have 4 of us going, but it may only be 3 and it's even possible that this won't be the exact hike we do. It's far away yet and so there's a lot I just can't know for sure yet. (I'm really probably posting this all too soon, but like I said, I'm kind of geeked.)

My dad and stepbrother physically prepped for this for about 4 months before the trip, both being in pretty good shape to start with.

As far as fishing, my dad said the fishing wasn't as good as he was hoping it'd be and he wasn't going to bother taking his fishing gear next time.

It will be difficult for me to take practice mini-trips because I don't want to take my daughter camping until I know what I'm doing (both my husband and my daughter would be whining and would never, ever camp with me again if I messed it up) and I don't have any close friends who camp. However, I have a friend whose husband camps and hikes. We are not terribly close (just re-connecting for the first time since high school, really) and I may see if they can humor me and take me with them some time when they go.

Also the rest of this camping season is pretty much over for me (I am not going to start trying to camp in the winter, that's for sure!) because my mom just passed away in July and I'm dealing with a LOT right now.

One specific question I had, and someone answered it a bit: What is a reasonable weight to expect for, say, a pack, or a bag, or boots or clothes? I'd really like to have as little weight as possible since I think the weight of the pack is goig to be one of my biggest hurdles on this trip. And I am slightly freaked out about the possibility of snow and cold weather. I have seen pics of people hiking in places with some snow on the ground in shorts. How warm do my clothes really need to be for this area? I imagine I need to make sure I've got either a warm bag or warm clothes at night, but if I'm working hard hiking... I just really don't want to overpack, but freezing doesn't sound too fun, either. I guess another thing is that the amount of hiking each days sounds like it will be moderate, having us rolling into camp each day around 3 or 4 p.m. So that would mean sitting around camp for a few hours and I suppose those few hours would be mighty unpleasant if I had no warm clothes. How do I calculate what clothes I will need and how much? I'm all for multi-purposing things, layering, etc. and keeping the weight down.

Also I burn so this may affect my clothing choices as well? I'm worried I'm doomed to be hot and miserable so I don't burn.

Thanks again.

Hi, kievalina:

I sent you a private mail (PM) regarding gear, so I won't repeat that here (if you're not sure how to access it, just click on the little flashing icon up by "My Stuff."

Anyhow, to make a very long story short: if you are not sharing gear, and are willing to use lightweight (not necessarily ultralight, but light) gear, it's pretty easy to get a pack weight, before you add fuel, water, food, and clothing, of about 15 pounds. To that, add 2 pounds for each iter of water (I plan to carry only 1 liter, which gets me from stream to stream easily here in the east - talk to others for how much to carry where you're going.) Add 1 or 2 pounds of food per day (I'm older, and eat very simply, so I'm down around 1 pound; I have a friend who likes to cook, and he carries about two pounds a day - plus an extra pound of kitchen gear for preparing his feasts.) If you're using down clothing, figure 2 - 3 pounds of cold-weather clothing, and for more than a weekend, add a pound for spare hiking clothes. If you're using sythetic insulation instead of down, add another pound. Then add any non-essential gear, like fishing poles, books, iPods, cameras, chair kits, etc. Given those very rough rules of thumb, and minimizing non-essentials, you should be able to stay at or under 30 pounds without much problem. Sharing gear (which it sounds like you're going to do) will make it even easier, and may mean you'll be carrying 25 pounds or less.

Please understand, I'm not guaranteeing anything - the type of gear you choose (which will be driven by price as well as weight consideration) will be the main determinant of whether you can hit these goals. But, "30 pounds" gives you a budget to work with. You can make trade-offs within that budget: if you want to save money by using a synthetic sleeping bag and jacket, you can offset the weight gain by deciding to carry only a single small mug/pot and stove, which will move you toward 1 pound of food a day because you'll have to eat more simply (start by tossing all the cocoa mix and such - my son and I did that before heading to Isle Royale one year, and found that we saved nearly a pound each.) You might have to decide to leave the fishing gear and iPod behind, too. You get the idea. If you decide you can sleep comfortably on a closed-cell foam pad instead of the self-inflating pad I included in the 15 pound starting load, you can spend the half pound of weight you save on something else.

Your first goal should be to come up with a fairly complete gear list. Post it here, without weight, and ask us to review it and eliminate the stuff that isn't necessary. Then you can start picking out specific brands and models of gear and assigning weights to each item - and then give us a whack at that list before you start spending money!

See, the problem is, you won't know how to do it til you do it. I posted what I wish someone had told me before I went out for the first time in decades (used to go as a kid, but kids experience far less misery than middle aged adults under same conditions!).

The problem is that making your first backpacking trip a multi-day outing will mean increasing (by probably quite a lot) the risk that you will not have a great time. My first backpack was a miserable painful experience. And I had been dayhiking a lot, and done quite a lot of research on gear. Yet the backpack didn't work out for me, the shoes were not right, and there were some miserable miles with tears streaming down my face. Had I been on a multi day with other people, I would have had the problem of suffering on for the remainder of the trip and keeping my mouth shut, or suffering back to the car with the disappointed friends going with me, because it is just not right to leave a miserable backpacker and go have a good time while they limp back out of the wilderness.

If you can't manage at least a car camping outing with the gear - fill up the backpack like you're going overnight, take it dayhiking, come home, set up camp in the back yard and play backpacker. Seriously, it sounds dumb - people think I am nuts for taking stoves and such on dayhikes all the time. You test the gear before you rely on it. It's not about what works for other people, it's about what works for you. More people take more gear back to REI because some sales guy sold them THEIR favorite stove, boots, whatever, and it just was not what that hiker needed. A newbie backpacker on one of our hiking group's easy overnight trips stopped half a mile short of the lake we were heading for and camped right next to the trail because she could not take another step. The next day she and another hiker packed back out again because she was throwing up - could not climb higher than 7,000 feet in elevation. She had brought a white gas stove the salesman talked her into and could not get it to reliably light without overpriming it and nearly torched her shirt with it. And of course, she isn't listening to the rest of us when we tell her it's probably better to start shorter and slower. She did it TWICE. And got lost into the bargain because she absolutely would not consider NOT going back by herself, because she didn't want to inconvenience anyone. The first backpack was six miles out without a lot of elevation gain. The second was about the same. Same results. She spent the entire second day sleeping, on the first trip. She had been dayhiking, kayacking, riding her horse, going to the gym, and thought she was going to be ok.

My suggestions still stand... I respect that scheduling and priorities are there, but I'm not just talking about something I haven't tried to help people with over and over and over. I have a hiking group of 1300+ people, and at any given time five or six of them are trying to figure out this backpacking thing - between my own learning curve and theirs, it's a pretty sure thing that you don't know until you go. You may very well do it and do very well - you might not. Gear testing and trying some miles with the full backpack only help you determine ahead of time the likelihood of successful, enjoyable backpacking.

I made no suggestions about gear because you are getting started very early, and you seem to be thinking through and dayhiking... so I think you will be able to figure out things like that without my help. I'm not hiking in places you're going, so others will have better suggestions than me.

Good luck on your planning, and hope all goes well.

I don't think it's dumb at all.

Monday, I'm taking the shortest backpacking trip of the year. I'm going to hike about 2 blocks and practice setting up the hammock in the local park. I'll try to set it up in a few different places.

I'll bring a full pack with me and cook a meal while I'm there.

I'm going to try to get out next weekend for the real thing with the hammock and see how it goes. It might be a disaster because my hammock is crude, but it will tell me more about what I need.

I also agree - get the camping stuff worked out before you commit to 6 days. If you can't get away for a whole weekend, take your gear to a nearby state park and camp in the car-camping campground. Leave on Friday, after work; you might even get to hike for an hour or so with your pack after you get your site. Take only your backpack with your food and gear, and then pretend that the car isn't there. (Some parks have "overflow" parking lots a few hundred yards from the campsite area; you can even park there, and carry your pack to your site. Live out of your pack overnight, then pack up and hike for another hour or so Saturday morning, then drive home.

Do that once or twice, at least, before you commit to a long trip. Heck, I still do it every spring as a shakedown for my gear to make sure everything still works.

If you get a twenty degree bag, and are expecting temperatures around 50 or 60 during the day, and 30 at night, camp in those conditions around home - that might extend your opportunities into late October or early November, and let you start again next April. (Here in southern Ohio, that covers pretty much March 1 through Thanksgiving.)

Your idea about getting friends to let you tag along is also good.

Fall and Spring are also really nice times to go camping.

I don't remember not camping when I was growing up, but I introduced my kids to camping by going in the backyard with a tent and basic sleeping gear - it is a really smart way to lower the cost of failure.

The older two are now going backpacking with me - even while I'm learning to do it better. They don't know the difference, so long as I keep them safe, warm, and fed.

Do take their advice to heart, but don't let it scare you. Chances are that keeping up with a 5 year old and carrying her around has gotten you some good training. The trails are usually well groomed. Yellowstone park is mostly all above 7500. If altitude sickness were that common you would see people dropping all over the place. You will go over the Beartooth pass while shutling vehicles. It's elevation is just as high as your pack trip will be. Get out and take a half hour walk up there to get the feel of it. I wear North Face mid hiking shoes (waterproof). If I remember correctly, you will not NEED to cross any water deeper than that. I wear "nylon" pants with zip-off legs and bring a silk base layer, mid-weight middle layer (Hot Chilies or cotton sweats with hoody if I plan on playing in the fire), rain suit, rain hat, North Face Redpoint jacket, light gloves (again cotton if I feel like a pyro) and waterproof over gloves. I wear an Ex-officio long sleeve shirt with bug repellent built in. It has an spf30 and tabs to hold the sleeves up when rolled and breathable mesh panel and light-weight. Make sure you can wear all layers at once without restriction. The storms roll through quick, and the mornings warm up fast so the pretty much covers my clothing for that time of year.

Lots of good advice above. Do look at the articles on the home page of this site, left-hand column if you haven't already! Lots of good info on gear selection, gear lists, etc.

Best place to start is in your back yard at home or car-camping close to home. Get thoroughly used to your gear before you take it out. Those are also the best places to learn to cope with inclement weather and to keep your gear dry!

I agree too. I just did an overnight in the woods/pasture about a quarter mile from our house and found out about a big problem with my tent and learned alot of other little things too. Even if you're not that far from "civilization" (or still in it for that matter) you can still learn a LOT from just taking your gear out and actually trying it out.

Perhaps a person who has a bad experience on a first backpacking trip (unless they go solo) isn't at fault. Perhaps it's the fault of the one who invites them.

If I were the organizer for a Meetup group or something like that and someone said they were new, I'd arrange a time for the following skills practice session. I'd do it at the same time as the one doing the practice. To really make it instructional, each one would video what they do for review later. (The learner can review their own and the coach's.)

It's fun to take a newbie backpacking. But it's no fun for anyone if they have a bad time. Many might never go backpacking again. If there is time, have a new person walk along with the coach doing the practice before they buy their gear. Then they will know what is expected.

This can be done in a park, on a nearby trail, in the city with stops in a person's yard, or most anyplace else.

Hike at least 1 mile with full pack

Eat snacks containing at least 200 calories while walking
Set up shelter in 10 minutes or less
Filter a bottle of water (Just take it from prepositioned coffee can)
Cook meal containing at least 300 calories
Clean up dishes or pack them in plastic bags if no water is available
Simulate Marine bath in shelter
Hang food bag
Dress for coldest temperature expected
Sleep or read in shelter for 1 hour
Simulate night relief in woods, carry flashlight. Discuss and demonstrate positions for taking a crap. (My favorite is the downhill skier tucked position with feet shoulder width apart)
Cook breakfast containing at least 300 calories
Take down shelter and repack in 15 minutes or less
Walk at least 1 mile with full pack
Eat snacks containing at least 200 calories while walking
Stop to protect the pack from rain and put on rain gear

Stop for pizza on the way home (The treat is on the coach)

After they get home
Unpack tent and hang to dry
unpack sleeping bag and hang to dry
Do laundry

To make a real backpacking trip out of this, simply sleep the night instead of an hour and cook a few more times.

This doesn't work.

I've tried it. No one signs up. They think it's stupid. They sign up for backpacking trips.

Seriously, they have kids, work overtime, blah blah blah - they have no time for this nonsense - who prepares to go backpacking? You just stuff it all in a pack and go. Everyone does it that way!

My hiking group's website is crazy with links to all kinds of gear lists, helpful articles, tips and websites (this one included!). Every single description of every single hike has all the information you could want and links to all kinds of 10 essentials, be safe, LNT, blah blah blah. I get emails asking where they will park for carpooling (first item at the top of the hike description), can I bring my dog (always mentioned in the description of the hike), how hard is the hike (I am told by people WHO CAN READ that I do a very good and accurate job with hike descriptions) and still, we have trouble. They don't slow down long enough to read five paragraphs. It's just backpacking. Who cares? My schedule is more important. I can do it - I did it before when I was in scouts.

No one can predict how someone else will react or interpret or make decisions - ten "It's not that heavy" items added together overload the optimist with bad knees, and the next thing you know they are stumbling up the trail determined to NOT GO BACK DAMMIT LEAVE ME ALONE.

No, it's not the organizer's fault when people have reality testing problems. We have far fewer problems than we did before, but about twice a year, we have crazy determination hikers who rise up from the couch after 20 years of inactivity. I clearly label the easy outings and plan hikes such that the miles can be done in daylight even if someone is only capable of .5 miles per hour.

Lori,

I'm not surprised it doesn't work. Realistically, the list is just for myself.

Oh, but you have no idea how much I wish it worked....

It would be so much easier for them to enjoy backpacking if they would buy into it. It's made it so much easier for me.

And how sad it is when volunteers sign up for SAR and we can't convince them to leave all the heavy gear at home.... You can only try, and try to be an example.

Lori,

I used to be an organizer on a motorcycle meetup group. Well, people weren't coming anymore. We ride through the winter in Colorado except when there is snow with no temperature limits.

It was too cold, the ride started to early, too late, was too short or too long. In November and December, it was just me and another guy riding.

In the beginning of January, we decided to take a 600 mile ride. I limited the ride to 4 qualified riders. It nearly started a riot. Everyone wanted to go. Finally we shortened the ride and had about 15 riders.

"Seating limited" is a magic phrase if you want people to come.

All the backpacking trips are limited by the permit system - it's 15 people, no ifs, ands or buts. Or 8 if it's cross country. (Not my rules! That's the national park and national forest limitation.)

30 people will sign up - there's a waiting list. People start to wail about it. Can they start a second permit?

I tell them to wait til a week before the trip. Trailhead quota doesn't support that many. People will have things come up. They always do.

The week before the trip, we're down to 25, then 20, then 15 - then the day arrives, we show up, and there are nine of us at the trailhead. Magic! Never fails. Ever.

I had 15 people signed up for one of the easy trips - I got 8 permits reserved. People fretted, it got down to... exactly 8 people.

The way it goes...

And now back to the originally posted topic? You 2 really know how to make new people feel at home here.

Let's see... she wanted to prepare for a backpacking trip and did not like the suggestions of trying out backpacking before a multi day trip.

I understand the problem. It's been a common theme for me - no time to really prepare the way the fanatic backpackers think she should. She says she can't do test trips.

How is it not beneficial to understand that this is not just her problem, it's a common problem with somewhat predictable results, and going on multi day trips without doing shorter trips can mean a less enjoyable trip?

I sure wish someone had taken the time to attempt to get me to understand that before I jumped back into the game and suffered my way back to the car. No one did.

Kids do much better camping than adults. Just make sure she has enough food and is warm enough and she will have a good time. If you are nervous make the first trip in a campground. I have never met a kid who wasn't happy roasting hot dogs and marshmallows over a campfire. If something doesn't work out, drive home.


Don't go now. Go next spring

I would say most people who don't do research on lightweight backpacking and try to re-purpose car camping gear end up with packs around 50 lbs. The first stab at lightweight backpacking people end up around 30 - 40 lbs. It takes real effort to get a fully loaded pack below 20 lbs. Just my humble opinion.



Well, if you have clothes in layers and enough layers to keep you warm at night you can take off layers until you are comfortable during the day. The standard recommendation is to bring enough clothes such that if you put all of them on you are fine in your worst case conditions. The key is not to bring anymore clothes than that.

I'm worried about all the excuses. You have lots of time yet you list all these excuses not to get prepared. If you really want to do the trip you need to change the attitude. Because something stressful will come up in the spring as well. Best thing is to book a flight now so you are committed and can't back out. Then the trip all the sudden becomes something important because you don't want to be out the cost of the airfare. Belief me, as rude as this sounds, excuses are the one think that will kill your trip.

People here have given great advice that I can just join. Hiking around the neighborhood and trying out your gear at home is an easy and great way to prepare.

Fall is a good time to try out your camping gear. Sleep with your tent and sleeping bag in your backyard. Don't be afraid if the temperature drops to 30 degrees F. You should still be able to handle this. At 10,000 feet it could easily be that cold or colder. Let your daughter and husband sleep in the house. They aren't going with you. No need to buy gear for them as well. Also you want the lightest tent possible so you don't want to lug around a 3/4 person tent.

A tent should be setup and torn down fairly quickly. So you should be able to sleep even weekdays in your back yard. I did that a few times to test my equipment. And a few times is all you need. Once you become comfortable doing so you can stop. A night in cold and rainy weather will prepare you for the worst. BTW, I suggest getting your own tent. That way you have your privacy and the comfort you like. You also won't depend on a specific person in case that person can't be at the hike.

Your husband and/or daughter can come along on your walks where you test your backpack with gear. They don't need to carry anything and could even ride a bike or in a stroller you push.

My condolences about your mother. You might use your test hikes and tenting as a time of reflection and relaxation of these stressful times.

The other thing is what I could have more directly addressed... that people frequently have scheduling changes.

Planning a trip like that a full year in advance, in my case, has been a kiss of death - I have to wait until about five months in advance or the trip dies of a million schedule changes, itinerary issues, weather issues, and ... the rest of the group bails out. One by one. That's so far out you can't reserve a wilderness permit. I have a bucket list of long hikes that I can't get to - I had a permit for a 60 mile loop that had to be given away because my own situation changed!

The preliminary trip(s)/activities should probably be planned out a few months from now, after researching and deciding on some gear/clothing. That way you haven't wasted money and time on the nebulous long trip - and if the planned trip doesn't happen, you can decide whether the preliminary stuff panned out such that you have motivation to plan another multi day trip for family/friends to take the place of the first.

Just back from a trip and catching up on all the posts. And I just want to say one thing:

Lori, you rock!

Or suck. Depends on who you ask.

Well, Lori, you are versatile...good for you!

So sadly the friends I was hoping I could tag along with aren't actually going anywhere. :-( He likes to hike; she does not. So, I guess he goes out of state/out of the country with friends when he goes? So that's out. So now I guess in my spare time (HA!) I make new friends who are local and who backpack.

To add to the fun, my husband said he was "very concerned" about altitude sickness and "people die from that". Way to scare the bejeezus out of me, dude. :-p

I am thinking of getting my cousin to do some small, local trips with me, but that's going to have to wait until spring at the earliest, because he's in college and doesn't have time (apparently, college marching band sucks up a LOT of time); he doesn't have experience, either, but at least he's interested, unlike anyone else I know.

Just wanted to say I'm still reading this thread.

But... I was sort of put off by the fact that some of you apparently saw my situation as full of "excuses". Those excuses are just my life right now, unfortunately.

I despair of having any time whatsoever this fall to attempt much of anything other than maybe a backyard camp. By myself. Husband absolutely refuses to sleep in a tent. Period. I asked all summer long; never happened. Not sure when I will be able to go buy stuff, either, so I can practice as was suggested.

Do any of the REI or similar stores have classes or something? Or, anyone on this board live in the metro Detroit area??

Thanks again.

No, you rock. You're giving really good advice, and illustrating points I'd wish I'd understood when I joined this forum 2 years ago... which, after all, was the point of joining this forum.

See if this launches: http://www.rei.com/stores/18?s_kwcid=TC|13030|REI%20denver||S|p|6928717453&cm_mmc=ps_google_reibrand-_-REI_Brand-_-REI_brand_denver-_-REI%20denver&gclid=CN3B3_mWnqsCFYXb4Aod-UCxgQ

If not, google "REI Denver" and you'll find it. Class list is at the bottom - so are their guided trips.

Trust me, many of us share your restraints towards getting out and hiking. I don't get nearly the trail time that lori, balzacom, or numerous others get - price of keeping up a marriage, and having small kids. While escaping for a week is hard, getting a weekend every three months has proved to be much easier.

Hoping you get out...

This is where I recommend hiking groups - there are lots, from the Sierra Club to meetup hiking groups to local groups that maybe have a website, maybe don't. Dayhiking with groups is a good place to start, you meet people to go do other stuff with as friends.

Don't be discouraged by people who see reasons as excuses. What you have is priorities - but I also know that there are many different kinds of backpackers, from the occasional social backpacker talked into it by friends, to the other end of the spectrum - people like me who suffered their first trip out and stuck with it and figured it out, and hey, wow, I seem to hike all the time now, when I'm not training for search and rescue.

If you want to do this, not in a passing sort of "wouldn't it be nice" kind of way, you'll find a way to do it. No one can make you do something you don't want to do, conversely, no one can set your priorities for you.

REI rents gear, and so does lowergear.com.

This looks like a pretty active group in your area. They mostly are into hiking, but it's a good way to get started and meet some people.

At 10,000 ft, it isn't THAT much of a concern. You will have to take precautions to mitigate the risk, but you aren't at 20,000. On my recent trip to 10000 for a week, it was definitely noticeable, and much less oxygen. But by drinking more water, and walking slower, I was able to cope, never got sick. Anyways, it definitely isn't a show stopper, just something to prepare for.

Don't get discouraged. You asked for advice and people gave it. You are the one who has to take that advice and decide what you want to do. Also, don't get overly freaked out by altitude sickness. Read up about it, learn what you can do to prevent it and symptoms for it. Outside of that there is not much you can do. If you have severe problems with it, you may have to cut your trip short.

My first trip, I got in a car at midnight at sea level, drove all night, got to the trail head at 6 AM (at 10,000 ft) and spent all day hiking farther up the mountain. Oh, and I am also pretty out of shape. It wasn't the best practice... but it worked and I had a great time.

At this point in time, you should be trying to get in shape (shouldn't we all?) and start thinking about the gear you want. Do you want to buy gear or rent gear? Start putting together a gear list and check in with us before you buy anything.

This should be the final word on all that uneducated fear mongering. I know lots of pilots. Small planes are not even required to have oxygen until 11,500- 12,000 ft. I have flown over granite peak several times and never had an issue. If the FAA doesn't require any precautions in a plane that you can't just pull over and park at 1800 feet higher than you will be on the third day, than who do you think is just plain ignorant. Yes, YOU WILL HAVE TO stop and catch your breath more often the first day or so. But if you come all this way to charge up the hill and miss the scenery, then what is the point? Less than 1 mph will get you through your longest leg in plenty of time. I do not like through hikes, because you miss half the views if you don't take it real slow. I also prefer to camp before tent city the first night at the bottom of the step part. This is not a bad thing if you run out of gas at 6 or 7 miles and choose to camp out of the crowds. I have taken smokers that rarely and never just go for a walk up these trails. After the first day they go twice as fast. So just don't push it the first day. Take what you can do and be happy with it. A little pre training does make it more enjoyable.

I'm about 3.5 hrs south of you in Columbus, Ohio. I often backpack solo, with a group, and 1-2 times a year with my wife and 4 kids (ages 1-8) along. I typically go on trips in Ohio and the wilderness areas of West Virginia, where the mountains are as high as 4800 ft. These areas are probably about as far for you as some areas of the UP. I've backpacked with a few meetup.com groups 3 times per year, organizing one of those winter trips.

I'd be cautious about attending a course at a gear store. Be sure to bring your skepticism. You're likely to be taught that you need gear which isn't necessary, or is too heavy. Reading books and online forums and articles is a great way to learn, but that depends on your learning style too. I purchase most of my gear online, sometimes from REI.

I've had at least six people have difficulty (not just shortness of breath) at elevations 5,000 - 8,000 feet on day hikes. That's with 20 people per hike, about 1-2 dayhikes per month, all year long.

It's not fear mongering to warn about something that's completely unpredictable but a serious issue - people have been carried out of the wilderness with HAPE, the more serious form of high altitude sickness. Not many people, but I have to wonder if they had a clue about the symptoms before they went, cause why wouldn't you turn around and descend before it got to that point?

I know that at any point, despite my long history of driving from 500 feet to 10,000 feet and hiking higher without incident, I could become the next case. But I don't live in fear because I know what the symptoms are and how to address it sooner rather than when it's too late. That's the point of education and skill building - the more you know about wilderness survival, the less likely you are to panic when the unexpected happens and make things worse.

6 people in how many years? 3 years would be .005%. How many of them under 30? That would put the odds so low that it is hardly worth this much ink. That is why I suggested a walk on the top of beartooth pass before backpacking. Other than being educated that is all you can do. You won't know until you try. I am beginning to smell the stench of a dead horse being flogged on this thread. If she actually gets altitude sickness I will go buy a lottery ticket. She actually has a better chance getting struck be lightening up there.

Maybe you could actually educate her on the symptoms and tell her how rare it is rather than condemning her of it in the first place. That would show that you are interested in her safety, rather than grandstanding your vast knowledge and experience without actually passing any useful information along.

FredMT......what Lori said. With emphasis on this quote;



Interestingly, my wife now gets the predictable headaches and nausea at around 7000ft. We can work around this by acclimatization. Like Lori I have been blessed or lucky but have personally witnessed more than 20 cases of altitude sickness probably brought on by too rapid an ascent. Just in case you poo-poo this, there was a documented case of high altitude cerebral edema that occurred in late March 2010 on Mt. Shasta (just under 14,200ft). Altitude Sickness Leads to Mt. Shasta Cl... Sierra Journal This was confirmed by an autopsy. Bottom line is that you need to be aware of these things, not scared of them.

The trail the OP is planning to go on tops out at 10,000 feet. So regular altitude sickness IS a concern; knowing what the symptoms are, what to do about it, and how to avoid it are just things people in the backcountry should know for their own good and if they run into people who need assistance. THAT is education, not fear mongering.

..kettle?

Perhaps I don't write thesis papers on subjects there is plenty of information on elsewhere (such as the very helpful Outdoor Action Guide ) because I think that sounds like grandstanding vast knowledge.

I kind of have faith in people to be able to use google.

The article says it is odd and that people don't usually start worrying about it until 1500. The guy was over 14,000 the trail we are talking about is 9,800. There is no shame in turning back if needed. I do start warning people above 11,500 but you would be climbing a peak to do that in the beartooths. There is a reason it is called the beaten path, it is a popular tourist destination. Everyone seems to come out fine (unless they come here first). The sky is not falling. She came here to learn these symptoms and other thing. Not to be told to go look it up somewhere else (all we do here is tell horror stories).

Yes Fred, that is a rare case of an experienced mountaineer dying at 14000 ft. But, the point is that things like this do happen.

OK, when I was doing the last post waiting for a phone call I received said call. By the time I finished, FredMT had posted again so.....oh well....

I will say this about when it occures from my own experience; 10,000 feet generally seems to be the magic number for some reason. But I have had to haul people out from 9000 ft as well. I know a number of people who climb very regularly and live at 5000ft. They can get headaches driving up to the base of Mt. Evans in Colorado to climb in Black Canyon. And these people are lean and mean fit. I am 54 years old; the last couple I took up into the Sierra Nevada (summer 2010) were in their 30's and did triathlons. Right around 10,000 ft, the started to exhibit signs of altitude sickness (minor headaches and some nausea).

OK. I do not claim to be an expert, but here is what I do. If the symptoms are minor, I tend to stop and monitor the symptoms. The only quick cure is decent. If symptoms persist that is what you will have to do. For the couple in 2010, one was fatigued and had very slight headaches at just over 10,000 ft. The symptoms didn't seem too bad and we still had a 800ft rise over a pass before we dropped down so we stopped and monitored. Next morning we were a go and went over the pass, but stopped shortly after at just above 10,000 ft again to spend another whole day acclimatizing as both the couple had slight headaches. They were both fine the rest day, but we stayed put anyway. So basically it was over 2 days acclimatizing at over 10,000 ft. From here we went to over 11,000 the next day, and to over 12,000 the day after.

In general, it is better to go over the passes and sleep lower than your max elevation. (What is that rule...go high, sleep low?) If someone has a persistent headache and is throwing up, I get them down 1000 to 1500 feet as soon as I can and continue monitoring symptoms. UN-fortunately, I have lots of experience with this and my wife who gets sick at 7000 ft if we move too fast. But she is not the only one...

Tis better to get to a 6000 elevation early and give your self 2 to 3 days to acclimatize with day hikes to higher elevations of 7 or 8000 ft to see how you do. If everything is OK, go from there. Leave time in the schedule for stopping at unexpected spots, or dropping to lower elevation, should some nausea or headaches occure.

Disorientation is a bad sign; get that person out.

So that is how I approach the thing. Again there are people/articles out there with far more experience than me out there. This is what I have learned from personal experience and reading.

sK

ps I think no one wants to act like a Doctor when they are not and so they are hesitant to put stuff down. Maybe you haven't seen things go wrong, but I have and I believe Lori has as well (along with other people who frequent this site). It is ok to hear it here first maybe...but "you" need to look it up on your own to verify as well. Cancer patients tend to do an amazing amount of research on their own. I think people need to learn from this habit without being threatened with death to start doing it.

I think the broader issue for the new backpacker is "There are things out there that can be dangerous." That was our concern for a rather ambitious first experience. There really is less danger in the wilderness, once a person has understanding, than there is in the city. But for a person without understanding, it can be very uncomfortable and sometimes dangerous.

As long as a person probes the limits of their experience gently, there is not likely to be a serious problem.

Kievalina, my understanding is you have never slept outside. Grab a bunch of blankets and sleep in your backyard if you can do that. If you get cold, come on in. You will have learned a little bit about sleeping outside.

If you have a warm winter coat, try layering instead for a walk around the block. A short sleeve shirt, a long sleeve shirt, a sweater and a jacket. You will have learned about layering clothes for warmth.

Go for a very short walk in the rain without a raincoat. Especially on a windy day. You will learn how important it can be to stay dry.

If you've never walked 5 miles, pick a nice day and walk 5 miles passing by your house or car every mile or so.

When you first go out in the woods, camp by the car so you can go home easily and take a little walk on an easy trail. Along the way, you will learn things and the answers to the harder questions will make more sense.

If you can do at least a couple of these things, it may show you are driven to backpack. If not, it may simply mean other things are more important now.

Whatever you do, have fun. If it isn't fun don't do it.

Hey, Gershon: That's one of the most insightful posts I've ever read, and stunning in its simplicity. I fully agree with everything you said.

There are risks in going on a backpack trip. The trick is to identify them, prepare reasonably for them, and weigh what's left against the rewards, which can be spectacular.

I think that's what many of us were trying to say, but it came out as, "DANGER, Will Robinson!!" What we were trying to get at was, "Ease into this so you understand the risks."

Sleeping outside is not inherently risky, but it can have risks attached to it: food in the tent in bear country is risky (food in the tent in varmint country can be highly annoying); rain and cool weather, in a leaky tent, can move you toward hypothermia as your bag and clothes get soaked, etc. A little study and the right gear pretty well handles those risks. The biggest thing, though, is that sleeping outside is Different, and just as you don't sleep well in an unfamiliar bed, you'll be somewhat restless and wakeful your first few nights in a tent and sleeping bag. So, you practice it in your backyard, and car-camping at a state park; it eventually becomes as welcoming as your bed at home, and you no longer have a problem.

Walking is also Different - you'll be walking farther than you're used to, and it won't be on nice, smooth sidewalks. Again, nothing overly tricky, but you need to practice it. You'll learn that you have to keep your eyes on the trail more when it's tricky footing. You'll want to get a feel for some narrow spots, with drops on both sides (not necessarily thousands of feet, but those 10 or 15 foot drops), just to get past that first-time panic when you happen on such a spot. That addresses the risk of sprained ankles because of rough footing - and helps you realize that, if you don't try to be a speed demon and pay attention, you'll probably never sprain an ankle, let alone break a leg.

Walking in the rain - great advice there, except that I'd add to wear a raincoat only. One really good way to ease into this is to remove the umbrella from your car. When it's raining, and you're parked halfway across the lot from the store, just get out and walk to the store with the hood up on your coat. It helps you realize that yes, you'll get a little wet, but really no wetter than when you use the umbrella (and you won't melt.) It also helps you realize that, if you're out backpacking and get into one of those all-day soakers, sometimes the only thing to do is make camp midday and wait it out in your tent.

And, above all, it should be fun. If it isn't, tinker with your technique, goals, and preconceptions and arrange things so it is fun. You don't have to measure success or fun by anyone else's standards, only your own.

Give it a try. If you can't find a group around Detroit, and don't mind driving a few hours, my local backpacking store sponsors beginner trips in southern Ohio; I'd be glad to let you know when the next one is. They go out of their way to make sure its enjoyable for everyone, and the skill level of their leaders ensures that you won't have to worry about what could go wrong.

Hmmm...I mention this a little hesitantly, but here goes: How good is your relationship with the friends? Depending on the dynamics, perhaps you (or you and your cousin) could go hiking and backpacking with him, since your husband and his wife have no interest in it?

I realize that suggestion has all sorts of relationship landmines buried in it. However, with the right spousal realtionships, it can work quite well. Over the years, I have backpacked with several women friends, and my wife was very much all right with it. In all those cases, they were mutual friends (that is, we both knew them separately from before we were married), and we'd been married more than 20 years when I started backpacking with them, so all the trust issues had been worked out long ago. It helped a lot that the one woman I backpack with most is not interested in men, and that we all grew up together (same school, same church, same small town.)

The two of us went alone only a few times; mostly, we went with one or two other friends. The most interesting thing is that those potential relationship issues never materialized on the trail. For one thing, we were all too dirty, smelly, and tired for any attraction to occur. But, most importantly, we had all long ago reached a level of maturity that removed such things from the realm of possibility.

Like I said, I realize there are potential problems with the suggestion, but I thought I'd mention it just in case it might work for you.

kievalina, Glenn and others are right (and yes, even FredMT) about possibly overemphasizing the dangers. But in my mind, knowledge is power.

If you want to get out there, don't let anyone stop you. There are lots of women backpackers; GOOD ones.

The best thing I have seen Gershon write in this thread was the "This" (a link to a meetup group near your area). If you were planning a bike trip from where you live to Montana, you would want to know how to ride a bike wouldn't you? Same thing. You need to practice; preferably with some people with experience. The "meetup" group in San Diego does short weekend trips and I would bet the group near you will do beginner trips as well. And if you start doing trips in Michigan now, you will certainly understand how to dress (both shoes and clothing) yourself in Montana next summer.

kievalina, whatever you decide, have fun with it. After all, it is all about the journey.

One other thing I forgot to mention, kievalina: Your original post was oriented toward getting ready for a trip to the western mountains. In your last post, you mentioned putting that on a back burner and trying to do local trips.

Don't underestimate the pleasure of those local trips. Although I occasionally get to the mountains of West Virginia and the AT in western Virginia, the vast majority of my trips have been within 4 hours of home, in hill country and flatlands. I've never backpacked west of the Mississippi. And you know what? I've still had great times!

Backpacking is as much a state of mind as anything. The important thing, to me, is being out and away. Wherever I've been, there's been something that makes me go "Neat!" "Cool" or "Wow!" It might be spotting my first moose or watching a Lake Superior gale blow ashore at Isle Royale, or the views off Mt. Rogers in Virginia, or feeling the almost-physical presence of God one quiet solo evening in the Red River Gorge - or merely encountering 12 deer over an hour in silencce of the early hours of a crisp January morning at a state park 25 miles from my home in the corn belt.

Take those local trips; you won't be "settling" by doing so. As the author Harry Roberts (no relation) once said, "Backpacking exists everywhere - and it's good everywhere." If you end up deciding you're not up to the Big Trip West, that's fine. It is, quite literally, "all good."

The above comments are spot on. I one thing I have noticed doing SAR is that the single element common to victims was inexperience. Get experience and you will be fine. Start slow and easy, in your backyard is just fine. Work out from there. Read up - Colin Fletcher has written some good stuff. Study accident situations and learn what works and what does not. Carry the ten essentials. Learn first aid (take a course - it will be broadly useful in life, not just hiking). Learn how to use a map and compass. Figure out what meals and snacks are appealing and nutritious for you when outdoors. Gradually get into shape and harden your body.

Gradually extend your horizons and you will have a marvelous time.

Enjoy!

Lots of great advice here! Gershon's is, IMHO, the simplest and the best!

Thanks everyone for changing the attitude. All I am saying is that you can't find a better trail for testing your altitude ability. 8 days means way less than 1,000 ft per day. I suggested leaving the option open to camp at 7,000 the first night on the trail. It is almost a given that they have to camp at 6,000 the night before. They plan on 7,700 the first night which means they camp there 2 nights or move up to 8,000. Night three 8,700 maybe and night four would never be above 9,500. A 1/2 hour of actual walking takes them up to but not over 10,000 feet and back down to 9,500 .....etc. All way less than anything usually recommended. The scenery is so nice that rushing up the trail would be against human nature and ought to be a crime.

You cannot know how you will do at altitudes until you get there. I have had a dozen or so people swear they had AMS but didn't. It starts with anxiety and tight muscles from these stories. This causes them to work much harder going up the hill than necessary. This causes heavy breathing and headaches. Their stomachs are usually in a knot from the stories, and they haven't felt like eating. This causes low blood sugar and light headedness. They forget to drink enough water because their stomach is already upset. It usually takes an hour to calm them down and get them to eat and drink. I explain it is unlikely, but we will watch. After I get them talking, laughing, and enjoying the scenery, it all goes away. The next day at higher elevations they seem like they just finished boot camp comparatively.

I am not complaining about the warnings, just the lack of quantifying it and making it seem inevitable. The original poster seems to agree with me "put off" I believe was the term........ and then Lori did it again! I did not think the purpose of this forum was to run people off.

PS. Patients is appreciated if I am not explaining the correctly. All I am saying is a little bedside manner and consideration to the original poster and their specifics should/would be prudent. Discuss the rest in another thread or backtalk.

As a volunteer SAR who goes on mutual aids in Yosemite and has the opportunity to talk to those fine folks, I can attest to a variety of rescues for altitude issues - down to 4-5,000 feet elevation. You're just not going to hear about them. Why would newspapers report successes? There would be three or four every day all season long, in Yosemite.

While not common as dehydration (which happens too easily and before people notice it), it's enough of a concern that I always warn hiking groups (from my larger hiking group, I don't organize all outings myself) to read up on symptoms and know what to do if they have them, from the perspective of someone who has a background in SAR and believes in preventive measures. I also provide info on dehydration, hypothermia (more common in summer than in winter), and the basic gear list essentials to decrease risk of serious outcomes.

It's also very clear to me, from some of the experiences people have had while hiking with the group, that very few people take that seriously.



A reasonable approach - trouble is, people have limited vacation time and frequently want to make the most of the time so don't stack on days to acclimate.

We've been trained in SAR to look for the umbles - stumbles, fumbles, mumbles.

I do understand your point. What really got me started was her own husband saying that people die at that altitude. I can't seem to find anything to back that up, and if you could find an example, it would have to be a combination of other factors as well. Gross negligence? I had to get a 75 year old man out of the south end of this trail a couple years ago. Only 4 or 5 miles. He had a mild heart attach. His son, his doctor, was there. Yes, things do happen in the wilderness, but his response was more like "couldn't be a better way to go". The 15 miles I did that morning with double heavy packs was more discerning to him than the heart attack. Long time backpacker don't flinch at much.

Maybe he's reading accounts of Everest. Something like this (inconsistent, one measurement reads meters, the other in feet?) article - http://www.suite101.com/content/the-dangers-of-mount-everest-a244889

What taints things like accounts of HAPE deaths on Everest - no mention of the extreme amount of motivation people feel to complete the trip. Going to the top of Everest involves paying HUGE amounts of money to the government of Tibet, hiring sherpas, buying thousands of dollars worth of gear (including oxygen tanks), hiring guides - there is so much invested in the trip that people push forward no matter what. Unlike backpacking trips where one can rationalize, I'll come back next year and stay at mid elevation for two days, and acclimatize.

Warning: Long post.

When I was a pilot in the Air Force, I got a lot of training on altitude sickness. Before saying anything, I wanted to brush up on my knowledge.

Many people think there is only one cause of altitude sickness. Hypoxia. Which is a shortage of oxygen to the brain. This can be characterized by shortness of breath like a smoker, or just a discomfort in breathing. Like air is coming in and it's not doing any good. Headaches will likely occur with exposure of a few hours. And vomiting can occur. The solution to hypoxia is simply go to a lower altitude. If a person won't walk, it may help to have them lay with their head lower than their heart. Having them drink something may help as it can be confused with dehydration. Hot chocolate is said to reduce symptoms. I saw it work in just a few minutes. In Colorado, you can legally use pot for medicinal purposes with a license. A few puffs of that may help, too.

But hypoxia isn't likely to kill anyone at reasonable altitudes unless there are other medical problems. What will kill people is the OTHER kind of altitude sickness. It's commonly called the bends which is associated with diving.

The bends is caused by nitrogen coming out of the blood and other liquids in the body when we go up in altitude. Think taking the top off a soda bottle. Most hike too slowly to go up fast enough to cause a problem, or the hills aren't steep enough. But a person who drives to a high trailhead and starts hiking quickly uphill may have a problem.

Think of what happens to a potato chip bag when you bring it up in altitude. It expands a lot and that can happen in litte tissue pockets as nitrogen is released from solution. The problem is, if you get a little tear, the pressure is released and a lot more gas comes out. It's like taking the top off a soda bottle.

The bends has nothing to do with what shape a person is. It's simply their physiology. Backpackers have few problems simply because they move more slowly than a hiker without a pack.

Once a tissue tear occurs, going to a low altitude will not do anything to mend that tear. It will prevent further tears. Unfortunatly, having the person walk down will shake the soda bottle and cause more gas to be released.

It's likely a bad idea to drive from sea level to a trailhead above 4,000 feet and hike hard to 8,000 feet. (The pressure loss per 1,000 feet is higher at lower altitudes.) Simply taking more frequent breaks even if not tired can help. The greater the distance you climb in the car before hiking, the more likely it is you will get a pulminary or cerebral endema unless you take a day to acclimate to the higher altitude. Two days is safer.

How common is an endema? One in a hundred that goes above 3,500 meters will have one if they don't acclimate first. Source - table 25-1

Fred, the reason it's not a problem in planes is the pilots aren't hiking. They are generally sitting still, so the nitrogen doesn't come out of solution. But it CAN happen above 25,000 feet. That's the reason you can't fly above 25,000 feet without a pressurized cabin.

Now, back to hypoxia so an experienced person can tell the difference for themselves. We were taught the FIRST symptom of hypoxia never changes during our lifetime. For me it's a tingling in the fingers. The fancy term is "parethesia." Others have different symptoms. If the first symptom is something other than you personal first symptom, then there is a good chance it's an endema.

Lori, I'm guessing SAR carries oxygen bottles for these types of things as administering oxygen is the first treatment for both. If it's just the bends and no endemas have occurred, it will clear up in an hour or two of using oxygen.

Coughing blood or mental confusion approaching that of a drunk are both causes for extreme concern. Another cause for concern is shortness of breath that doesn't disappear when resting. If the heart rate remains elevated even when resting (above about 110) that is also cause for concern an endema is occuring. If fingers start to turn blue, it's time to panic.

This summer, my son had a pretty good case of hypoxia. He often hikes with a migraine so a headache isn't a good first symptom. But it is his first symptom of hypoxia. We were at about 11,000 feet still about 1/4 mile uphill to our campsite when we got hit with one of those sudden Colorado rainstorms. I saw it coming and called a halt to set up the tent quickly. That's when he had the urge to puke three times. He also had some mental confusion similar to having a couple drinks. He made a video of himself of all things, but I don't think he'd want me to share it.

I was glad I'd practiced setting up the tent myself in less than 5 minutes.

I had him lay down and made some hot chocolate. And he took a few puffs. (It's the only thing that touches his migraines and is a legal prescription.) Within a few minutes, he was fine and ready to eat. Going back down wasn't an option as it was getting close to dark and it was still raining.

I guess I do bad things a whole lot. I'm doing it again tomorrow, and doing it again the following day.

We don't carry oxygen. Pop in the car, drive at 70 mph (with escort) from 500 feet to 9,000 feet, hop in a helo that flies at 10-11,000 for a few minutes, get dropped off at 10k, hike around like crazy, get on the helo, go back to base, do it again the next day. If someone has a problem they go back and depart on the helo early.

I haven't had symptoms worse than a little shortness of breath and loss of appetite the first day out. My headaches have a lot more to do with water intake - proper hydration eliminates them 9 times out of 10.

Which is not to say I won't ever have bad symptoms... but I'll probably turn around and head back down if I do, before they get much worse. Not really one to suffer for the hike. I turned around on a Whitney backpack due to inclement conditions, I'd certainly do it if I became ill.

Proper hydration is a big key to preventing a lot of problems, only one of which is altitude sickness.
Here is an excellent writeup on altitude illness from NOLS Wilderness First Aid.

So to apply this to the O. P. A day to get to Billings, two if by Amtrak. Another day shutting vehicles and sight seeing at 6,000 to 10,000. That pretty much covers the safety factor. And camping at the trail head the first night since it will be too late to get started anyway.

On note about airplanes, since Gershon raised the issue.

Most airlines tell you that they pressurize the cabin to 5,000 feet (which is a lot better than the 30,000 feet they're flying!)

But since I got a watch with an altimeter in it, I often check that while i am flying. I have NEVER been on a plane that was pressurized to 5,000 feet, and I fly well over 100,000 miles a year. The average seems to be about 6500 feet...and I've been on planes that were around 7800 feet.

so If you feel lousy after a flight, that might be one of the reasons. It's a great idea to stay hydrated on those flights (as well as in the mountains!)

Waded through everything...

To clarify a few things...

The friend whose husband camps/hikes says her husband doesn't do that often (last time was several years ago) and doesn't do it around here (last one was in Scotland, I think?) so that's a bust.

Joined a few of the meetup groups, just missed a newbie/intermediate hike that only happens in the Spring and Fall, so kind of out of luck on that until the Spring. (Spots filled fast, long waiting list, etc.) It would have been nearly perfect, like an hour or so from my house, etc. But it's full.

Tried hitting up another acquaintance who I believe hikes/backpacks, but he's crazy busy and who knows what will come out of that... We haven't been terribly close, either.

I have done day hikes... 6 miles or so in recent years is probably our max. So, not like sidewalk or mall walking, but not mountains, either. We've done some parks near Traverse City (thinking that won't mean anything to anyone here, actually) and Sleeping Bear Dunes. I live near several parks which are rather large for being in the middle of a city, actually. They have nature trails-- paved, unpaved, uphill, downhill.

My plan for now is to take the train, and so yes, the estimate one poster made that it'd be 2 days on train/bus is about correct.

My stepmother would be dropping us off at one trail head and picking us up at the other. We would walk 8 miles the first day to Rainbow Lake, I think it was. When they went, they arrived at Rainbow Lake to camp at 3 or 4 p.m, having started around 8:30 a.m. that day.

Trail starts at 6200 ft. and goes up to about 10000 at peak elevation and then ends at around 8200 ft. (I can see the specter of the dead horse now... )

I was warned it rains a lot, but the rain never seems to last long, warned there was no shade, mosquitoes are terrible, there are lovely 300-400 foot drop offs next to the 18 inch wide trail (and, yes, that is going to scare the crap out of me) and the hike is hard and not much fun.

They had talked about tacking on an extra day at fossil lake, which I may have concerns over since that's at the highest elevation (dead horse, stay dead!). I was told that in terms of terrain, that's the easiest 5 to 6 mile stretch (that the rest is switchbacks-- up and down, and up and down, rinse and repeat).

I'll keep looking for trips to do here locally.

Oh, also I have slept in the backyard in a tent a few times (and peed in the woods a few times as well-- bonus points, perhaps?), but that's about where my experience "roughing it" ends. I have gotten caught while hiking in driving rain with a nice 10 or 20 degree temperature drop thrown in for good measure (Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes) and also gotten caught canoeing in some nice rain/wind (good times-- not). I'm told I went backpacking and camping... as a baby. Not surprisingly, however, I didn't take notes at the time.

Maybe what I really need is to re-visit Cedar Point (reference for the Ohio folk on the board). I remember walking an incredible number of miles in a day there and not even noticing. Ah to be a kid again.

kievalina, keep checking the meetup groups. I bet they will have additional trips in the future. You might even bring that topic up with them. You could just find a friend or 2 and do the same hike as the meetup group...

Just keep picking away at it. Each trip starts with a single step and if you keep putting one foot in front of the other, next thing you know you are there.

Let them tack on that extra day at "fossil lake". Use it if and when you need it though.

I think you are overly concerned about the altitudes involved. While it is true that altitude sickness has been known to occur at altitudes below 10,000 feet, such cases are rare.. People in the west typically live at low altitudes, drive into the high mountains, and do quite well. Your trip west will get you started on acclimatization. Just take it easy the first few days.

Try working some running into your fitness routine. Cycling is another good cross over activity.

Is there some reason you absolutely have to do this particular trail? There are thousands of alternatives availa...

You say hard, I say fun. Let's work on that. The first thing that makes a climb hard is not knowing what is around the next corner or when you are going to be there yet. The advantage is that the people you are going with have been on that trail recently. Most people tend to push through difficult stretches when they don,t know what to expect next. A lot of times those are the best views (behind them that they miss). I would bet they will pace things differently this time. One mile/hour isn't hard unless you are carrying a lot of weight. Try walking 1/4 mile by your house and making it take 15 minutes. It is hard to go that slow in that situation. You can also take 4 more hours the first day and still get there way before dark. Try taking more breaks. Walk at a normal pace, and when you feel yourself slowing down, sit for a minute, enjoy the scenery. The "good" walking you do will be soooooo much more productive and enjoyable.

Shoes (you will get a lot of diff. opinions on this). Take these http://m.thenorthface.com/mt/www.thenort...variationId=JS1 for example. This is the MOST you will need. Hiking boots (the heavy leather, hard sole, two months to break in) are out. Picture walking down an 8" deep tire rut with big clunky boots. You need a thick, comfortable, flexible sole for walking on jagged granite. The waterproof is good for rain and shallow stream crossings.

Rain gear. A lot of people here like ponchos because they are multi-use. You will need your arms and hands free on this trip. This is just for piece of mind. It is amazing how clostrophobic it gets when you think you may have to be ready to grab something while wearing a ponchos. Rain jacket and pants should have armpit zippers, full front zip, and 3/4+ leg zips so they go off and on quick. The hood on a rain coat is no good when hiking ion skinny ledge with backpack. When you turn your head to look at things, you see inside of hood. When you turn body to look at things because of hood, backpack hits cliff and causes heart to go fast. Bring separate rain hat. If brim all the way around, make sure pack does not get in the way (mostly just annoying).

Backpack. I strongly suggest NO external frame. You need your arms to move freely, and external frames are too wide. I tend to hit my funny bone on the aluminum bar every time I use one. Internal frames are more like climbing packs, making your agility better and the trip more fun. A Go-Lite style pack is about right for this trip. The pack doesn't need to be too abrasive resistant. Probably repeating this, but get the other gear first, then get the pack to fit.

Using your arms while walking helps a lot. Keeping in mind why I suggest these types of items when at the store will improve your fun factor. Nimble and agile are a lot less work than trudging up a hill.

Mosquitoes. Sprays and lotions are no fun when you are sweating. Look into clothing with repellent in them.

Sun. Lightweight clothing with spf.

Heat/shade. Probably your biggest challenge. So, do you carry more stuff for this (heavier pack, more sweating) or carry less so travel is easier? Most clothing is layered at night. Just make sure to include your hot weather clothes as part of your cold weather system too. The rain hat/ sun hat seems to be my setback, but I don't have a burn issue and don't like wearing hats, so I leave the sun hat home. Those bandanas with beads in them that soak up water are really good for keeping you cool.

Yes, you get bonus points.

"I was warned...the hike is hard and not much fun."

I hope this only refers to the one climb, and not the whole trip. If it's the whole trip, seriously re-think things. The idea of backpacking is that it's a hobby. It should be fun - maybe not every minute, but the overall memory you take away from a trip should be, "I really enjoyed that."

I've only been to the Traverse City - Petoskey area once, but it looked like there was some great hiking country there (as I recall, there were a few wineries out one the peninsulas - what a great place for a trail to end?!)

Keep at it. You're just getting started; it will all click one of these days.

It's not the only hike you'll find on the calendar. There will be others. I run two meetup groups and am a member of five, there are last minute hikes all the time. And don't forget, you can always suggest an encore of the hike you wanted to do!

Don't let the people who think you can't read or think for yourself get you down. You're doing fine. You'll figure it out. One of the things I discovered, after getting into forums like this after I started trying to backpack, is that you can ask two backpackers a question and get ten opinions. I've been told my gear won't work at least a hundred times, yet it does work.

I wouldn't go on the not-fun trip until you've gone on some fun trips and gotten the gear figured out - trips with challenges are fun, you just gotta prepare yourself right.

I am no expert in family dynamics and I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express. BUT, I am the father of a 26 year old daughter. I took her on a difficult 4 night Grand Canyon trip when she was 14 (in and out Tanner) We did regular Dad & Daughter trips when she was in high school. She is a strong & experienced hiker. I would NOT take her on the trip that you describe.

oldranger is correct. There are many less difficult trails that are more suitable.

One thing I often do with new gear is run it through a reality test. This means a dark, windy, rainy or snowy night. Setup the shelter, unpack your pack, and cook on the stove. Everything is more challenging. If you have nice weather on your actual trip, everything will then be so easy. If not, things will go more smoothly because you've done it all before.

I always hope for bad weather on my trips though.

Since we hike in the same neighborhood, please let me know when you're going to be out and about, so I can choose the other weekends!

This goes back to the altitude sickness part of the thread.

I've had it just once, and then rather mildly. But the circumstances may be instructive.

I was visiting my parents who lived in Loveland, Colorado. I had spent several days there and in Estes Park. Two days before, I had climbed a local high point that I think is about 7800 feet.

I went for Long's Peak and made it to the scree pile where the rock shelter is located. Stopped for lunch and realized I could not face food without throwing up. I recognized it as altitude sickness and broke out a Kendall's Mint Bar (remember those? Just sugar laced with mint oil). I managed to get down about a quarter of a bar.

Tried to go on along the very narrow and scary trail on the backside of the mountain and realized I was a little too unstable to be out there alone and turned back. I think that elevation is about 10,000 feet.

I was frustrated because I felt I should have been acclimated by that time. Incidentally, even though I did not make it all the way, I found that trip very enjoyable and memorable. I'd love to do it again, even if I had to quit again. (but where can I get mint cake these days?)

Best, jcp

Adding to last post. Was just reminded that many people generally (in town) wear shoes that may be too short for hiking downhill with a heavy pack. The shoes I wear for climbing would stub my toes walking downhill on a trail for example. When in doubt, get the next size bigger and wear heavier socks if necessary.

Oh, you'll know which weekends!

(I tried really hard to make it to Roaring Plains WV this past weekend, but couldn't because of schedule. The forecast called for rain/snow mix, temps hovering in the 30's, no accumulation, and wind gusts to 30 mph. What resulted was 5-8 inches of snow and down trees above 4000 ft. I'm even more disappointed I didn't make it! )

I've been working in Toledo 5 days of the last 2 weeks. It rained every day, so I'm assuming you were in Toledo, too?

Nope, just a little rain is beneath me.

Back again.

I did the overnight backpacking trip that my local meetup offered. Enjoyed myself, froze my a** off at night. :-p

My next question is regarding some specific tents, so maybe this isn't the right thread for it, but I won't rule out that the conversation might meander back to generic newbie-type discussion, so I'm leaving it here.

I found these two tents so far that I'm interested in:

MSR hubba hubba

Mountainsmith Morrison 3 person

I wouldn't say I'm done looking. So far just cruising Amazon. I want to see them in person, but thought I'd throw it out here as another pre-trip-to-the-store data point to consider. So, anyone own either of those tents and have opinions to share?

Also, I ended up needing to buy some gear for that weekend trip and went with someone who's BTDT and ended up with a Gregory pack (Deva 65, I think?) and Lowa boots and a Black Diamond head lamp. I hadn't really had time to pre-research those things. (Oops.) If they fall apart, I will take them back. I found that in terms of the pack, I was worried about my hip bones and developing sores on my skin there (I've got very prominent hip bones with no "padding" of my own there) but found out on the short hike we did that the place I had more trouble was my shoulders. The front part, not the top of my shoulders-- I discovered I have no natural "padding" there either. The Deva has pretty thickly padded straps. Anyone else have this issue of being bony in those places and if so, is there a particular pack that's great for that or is it just something to get used to? The fit of that pack seems pretty good to me, and I wasn't in any serious amount of pain or anything like that.

I've got more, but let's go with this for now. TIA! :-)

I have little direct experience with the Hubba Hubba, but fairly long experience with the one-person version, the Hubba. I like that tent a lot - an awful lot. It's fairly light weight (and their "UL" clones, the Carbon Reflex 1 and 2, are even lighter, if weight is an issue and money is no object.)

The side opening is the most convenient I've found in any tent. Also, the symmetrical shape of the tent and the fact that the vestibule is split exactly in half (and can be left fully open, or half open on either side you choose) makes it easy to ventilate, even in the rain. It also means that, if you're like me and don't always get the foot end on the low end of the tent, you can simply flip you pad and bag. With other tents, like the Big Agnes Copper Spur or Fly Creek, your only option is to unstake the tent, reverse the pitch, and re-stake it.

The symmetrical shape also means that you can pitch it with the door facing whatever direction you want (to take advantage of a view, or avoid having to exit into the sticker bushes, for example.) In a tent with a distinct head and foot end, in order to get the head on the higher end of the slope, you might end up with an awkward exit. (When I talk about "slope," I don't mean severe slope - just that minor difference that always seems to be there, even on the most level-appearing sites.)

I did use a Hubba Hubba a couple of times, car camping with my wife, and found it to be a very comfortable tent. Two doors is nice, so you don't have to climb over your roommate to get out. It also means you can have the fly on (for privacy, in a public campground) but leave both vestibules at least half open to get some nice cross-ventilation going. I recently bought a CR2 (which has only one door, to save weight - not a problem, since I don't plan to share it with anyone) with the intention of using it as a winter tent, when the extra room is nice to hold all the extra clothing I bring, or to have someone in to play cards on those longer evenings. I'm anxious to see how it does.

I'd highly recommend the Hubba/CR1 and, by extension, the Hubba Hubba/CR2.

Glenn,

Nice review on the Hubba. It's probably what I'll get if my tarp doesn't work out.

What drove my initial purchase of the Hubba was:

1) It weighed about the same as the tarp and bivy setup (8x10 ID Siltarp and ID Salathe bivy) I was using, and

2) It offered the same bug protection as, but better ventilation (without the fly) than, the Salathe bivy, even with the bivy's bug netting fully uncovered.

Kievalina,

A 65 liter pack is pretty big. There is a good possibility your shoulder soreness was because your pack was too heavy.

Glad you had a good time.

Don't give up on the pack just yet. Sometimes, it just takes a couple of trips for the pack to adjust to you, and you to adjust to the pack. Gregory has a very good reputation for packs, and I think the Deva series is supposed to be designed specifically for women.

However, you might want to review how you were using the pack. A few things to consider:

1) How did you have the pack loaded? If you had the weight riding too low, it might have pulled the shoulder straps downward against your shoulders. If you had the weight high, but too far away from your back, it might have pulled the straps back against your shoulders.

2) How tight did you have the load lifters (those little straps that run from the back to the upper part of the shoulder straps)? Too loose, and they let the load pull backward. Too tight, and they might let the straps have too much play in the shoulders (and they then rub.) Also, some packs allow you to adjust the point where the load lifter attaches to the shoulder strap. Usually, I find them most comfortable if the attachment point is just forward of the top of my shoulders, but not on my collarbone.

3) How tight did you keep the shoulder straps? I usually try to keep them loose enough that I can just slip my little finger between the strap and my shoulder. It keeps the weight just off my shoulders, but the straps aren't so loose they move around. It also means that I have successfully transferred nearly all the weight to my hips, which means the shoulders won't get as tired.

4) In connection with the shoulder straps, play with the sternum strap. Move it up and down from the pre-set position, and play with the tightness. I find the strap is most comfortable just above the widest part of my chest, and pulled snug but not tight - it pulls the shoulder straps just a tiny bit more toward each other than they are with the sternum strap undone. If everything else is set up right, you'll actually feel the change in how the shoulder straps contact your shoulders. It shouldn't be so tight that it restricts your breathing.

5) Is the torso length properly adjusted? Too long, and the shoulder straps and load lifters won't wrap over your shoulders - and you'll end up pulling them too tight in order to compensate for the poor fit. Too short, and there won't be any way to get the load off your shoulders. Your pack should have come with instructions on adjusting the suspension length; if not, try looking on the Gregory website or go back to the store where you bought it and see if they can help you tweak the fit. I'm assuming that the Deva has an adjustable suspension; if it doesn't, you may need to get a different pack if torso length is a problem.

Playing with the load lifters, sternum strap, and shoulder straps for tightness is mostly trial-and-error; there's no way to tell you what will be the sweet spot for you. Just remember: you're allowed to tinker with those straps to your heart's content while you walk - except for adjusting the torso length, you don't even have to stop to do it.

Keivalina, it sounds like you are on your way in getting this worked out for yourself. Good Job! This thing called backpacking is always a work in progress anyway as people are refining what and how they do things.

Glenn's advice is very complete as always. The pack fit sounds like you may need to spend some time learning how to adjust the load carrying of the pack. For myself when I carry heavier loads, I often switch back and forth between more or less load on the shoulders as I hike along. But after a certain weight I will still have sore shoulders no matter what I do.

Wishing you continued good luck! sK

As counterintuitive as it sounds, you may not have had the straps tight enough. They are supposed to pull the load forward and down onto the hip belt. If they are too loose the load will be pulling backward against your shoulders and the soreness you describe will happen.

Next time you use it, make sure you balance the load inside the pack bag - heavy items close to the frame, lighter items stuffed in around them. I usually put the sleeping quilts in the very bottom of the pack, then load in my clothing sack, then start putting in food (usually in a bear can, vertically) and pack other things in the sides like my jacket, tarp, etc. On top of the load I put the stove/pot, rain gear, fishing gear if I have it, and my lunch. The water in a hydration bladder will either go in the pocket against the frame, or laying across the top of the load under the lid.

Then loosen all the straps and belt and put on the pack. Tighten the belt tighter than is comfortable (it will loosen some when you start moving). Then tighten the shoulder straps until you feel the load shift up and down onto the hips. The straps should be loose but no air space between your shoulder and the strap. Adjust the load lifters last, they should cause a perceptible movement of the weight forward and balance the pack on your hips.

I know this is a forum heavily weighted towards 'light-packing' but I would like to offer an alternate view regarding tents. My thinking is that a tent needs to be big enough for two people who 'don't like each other (at the moment)', plus their gear. On the trail, when you make camp you're tired and sore, it's rainy and buggy and neither of you has had a bath in days. The psychic space a larger tent gives is, to my mind, worth every extra pound of nylon. It's probably heretical to say that I have a North Face VE-25. Sure, it is a pig at over ten pounds, but split up it's not that bad. Sure, it's overkill for a quick weekender or for car camping. But, I don't have money for three tents, so I chose bulletproof. This is my third NF tent in 35 years (VE-23, 24, 25). They all have the same footprint, are all super easy to set up, all have a ton of room inside, and most important to me is that these tents have taken everything I have thrown at them without breathing hard. Deluge, tons of snow, gigantic windstorms or ice, I never once worried about this tent. I do clearly recall a week-long trip out to Polychrome Pass in Denali where one of the other couples' tent literally blew apart in the wind one night. Every time I 'try out' a smaller, lightweight tent in some showroom, I can't quite wrap my mind around sitting out a few days of bad weather in it, not even with someone I really like.

An observation: as tents got progressively smaller, there came a 'need' for a vestibule. The designers and marketers have concluded that this is a great selling point and it is now all but impossible to buy a reasonably sized shelter without one. The VE25 has a vestibule. I do not find it an improvement. It added a pound as well as an extra pole to the VE24. The tent was quite tidy and snug without the vestibule and had plenty of room inside for everyone and their stuff (this interior footprint has not changed.) My own personal take is that a vestibule is of marginal use, especially on an already generously-spaced tent. For smaller shelters, it seems to me that I would rather have more room inside and do without the vestibule. It's not big enough for your gear and I would never cook in it, so what's the point?

Did you figure out why you got cold at night? It wasn't necessarily the sleeping bag. (Of course, if you took a 40 degree bag into 20 degree temperatures, it probably was the bag.)

Assuming the temperature rating of the bag was appropriate for the temperatures you encountered, you might consider the following:

1. What kind of pad were you using? If it was an uninsulated air mattress, the bag wouldn't matter - you'd get cold by about 35 or 40 degrees, since the air would allow heat to transfer away from you into the colder ground (or, if you prefer, the cold would "seep into" the bag.) An insulated pad, like the Big Agnes Insulated Air Core or the NeoAir, would help - but the amount of insulation they have is insufficient below about 30 or 35 degrees. (You can supplement them with a closed-cell foam pad underneath, but a more effective solution is to get a pad with a higher "R" value, like the Thermarest Prolite Plus or the NeoAir All Season. There are other equally good pads out there; I'm just more familiar with the Thermarest line.)

2) Had you eaten enough, and were you sufficiently hydrated? You are the only heat source you have, and if you don't keep the fires stoked, you'll get cold.

3) Were you sleeping out of the wind? That is, did you have the doors and vestibules closed up on your tent, and does the fly come down the sides sufficiently to act as a wind break? Having the wind blowing across you, unblocked, speeds heat loss.

4) Were you using the sleeping bag properly? I'm assuming it was a hooded mummy bag with a draft collar and draft tube along the zipper. Did you have the hood snugged down, and the draft collar tightened? Was the draft tube flipped away from the zipper instead of covering it like it should? Is the bag too large for you? If so, you end up trying to keep a bunch of air space warm, which is very hard to do.

If none of these were the problem, then make sure that the bag is really deserving of its temperature rating - not all bags are. Some "30 degree" bags merely mean you won't actually freeze to death at that temperature if you're wearing all the clothing you brought; others mean that you'll be toasty warm in your skivvies. (A standardized rating system, the EN rating, is starting to make its way into the market; these ratings are comparable from bag to bag.) As an example, I've used the lightest bags in both the Marmot and Western Mountaineering lines. I've found that the Marmot ratings are dead on, and the WM ratings are conservative - which means that a Marmot 30-degree bag will keep me warm in my T-shirt, shorts, and socks at 30; in the WM 30 degree bag, similarly clothed, I'll be warm at 25 degrees.

Sounds like you're getting the hang of things pretty well - keep in touch as you continue your adventures.

Here is a perfect example of the exact opposite of what I do.

I am never so tired and sore that I am cranky. I do not plan trips to suffer - I want to enjoy the trip. So I carry the lightest load possible for the location and weather.

I have never been cold, wet or had any of my gear soaked. My tents all weigh under 3 lbs. For three season camping in the Sierra Nevada heavy and bombproof is completely unnecessary and ridiculous - anyone with a few hours' practice can do very well in whatever weather comes with a tarp of sufficient size.

If you are not rinsing off in lakes and streams, planning your miles and doing some dayhikes and walks to get into shape before the big trip, perhaps some of these things plus looking at some inexpensive (tarptents are quite reasonably priced) alternatives to lugging more weight than you need, might make a huge difference in your comfort level, and your attitude, at the end of the day.

I read with great interest the responses and have come to appreciate and respect the aggregate and individual experience on this board. That said, after many week-long trips, a month long trip, and once a six month trip sleeping with someone every night in the same tent, I'll stand by my preference for a more roomier tent. I have oodles of experience using only a tarp, or even just a poncho, even in black-fly season in Maine. I come to my decisions based on my experiences. I probably could have better worded the quoted post; I like the comfortableness of the slightly larger tent. I don't usually get to the end of the day completely beat up, nor cranky, but it happens to the best of us, and especially at those times I like the extra space. I don't carry a solar latte machine, but I do prefer to smooth it than rough it, even when humping over mountains way out in the boonies.

Having taken my share of baths in 40º water, I prefer to space them out...

To each their own

"I come to my decisions based on my experiences..."

And that is always the best way to come to decisions. Your decisions won't be the same as mine, because I don't have the same experiences as you - and that's exactly the point. Your decisions have to fit your needs, not mine. Fortunately, there's plenty of room, even on the same trip, for a multitude of techniques and preferences. No way will I intentionally criticize your decisions, though I will offer thoughts for you consideration - which you are free to ignore. You're not wrong, we're just different.

Good post.

There are many ways to bathe, including wet wipes, or a little extra water heated in the pot and your bandanna.

And I'll just go right back around to the stance that if you're choosing to suffer, that's totally up to you - I'll just be doing my own comfortable thing and let you do that!

There are too many ways to do things differently and without pain for me to do otherwise.

As always, lots of info.

As far as the pack goes, I had many of the straps as tight as they would go. I did play around with it when hiking to alternately put the weight in my hips and in my shoulders as well as playing with the sternum strap to move the shoulder straps in and out to ease sore spots, but I had very little weight at all. About 15 pounds, I think. Nothing was very heavy. I was so determined to not carry weight that I even left my little point and shoot at home. :-p I shared a cookset with someone else; she carried it. My sleeping bag and pad went in a car and not with me. I really had very little stuff.

I will play with the pack as I go and see what happens. I have a hard time with all the straps (keeping them all straight as well as what they can do for me; I will get there). I guess my initial question does remain, though: Is there a paricular pack that's known to be great for bony figures?

As far as sleeping, I totally goofed and slept the wrong way in the tent. It was a single person Big Agnes (not sure what style; I borrowed it for the night) and I slept the wrong way in it. Oops. Live and learn, I guess. I had 2 mummy bags, one rated 20 and another rated 0 (!), one inside the other, and every scrap of clothing I had brought with me. Hopefully this being cold thing was just due to sleeping the wrong way. I tried to sinch everything up but it was tough sleeping the wrong way in the tent (again, duh!) and with the sleeping bags one inside the other.

Thanks for the tent review. I do want to mention that I want to be able to fit 2 people inside either of those tents. My dad has offered to buy another tent (they have an XPG ultralight from cabelas, were happy with it and would get a second of those), but I do want to get my own at some point anyway. If I get one to take to Montana, there'll be two of us in it and I want enough space so that neither of us would get in trouble with our respective spouses. ;-) (Sharing a tent with my stepbrother, so it's not a huge thing, but in all seriousness, we want to have a *little* space.)

I'm sure I've missed a lot, but I wanted to throw out yet another thing: water filtration. When they went, they boiled water until it became clear it was costing too much fuel and then they used iodine tablets. I have a hard time trusting the iodine tablets, but understand about the fuel. Does anyone have a filtration system that they like? I looked at one from MSR that looked kind of nice. (Just looked on Amazon so far.) I realize I might be being overly anal. Iodine might be fine, but I just can't shake the worry and I don't want to find myself not drinking as much or often as I should because I'm worried about the water. (Spoiled at home with a reverse osmosis system that I LOVE. The water tastes SO good with the RO.)

Thanks again!

MTA: Oh and my seeping pad was pretty crappy. I'm going to want to get a much, much better one. (I had just borrowed this one.) So I know that wasn't helping keep me warm at night.

I like my katadyn hiker pro, but Lori's advocacy for gravity systems (Sawyer?) should make you think about her position (Lori, swat me if I got this wrong :)).

All the filters are about the same in terms of what they do - filter out microscopic pests down to about .02 - .03 microns - except for the cheap ones like the Frontier Pro. What is different from one filter to the next (ceramic or glass fiber) is the life of the cartridge and whether you can maintain them or not. Glass fiber aka the hiker pro, MSR/Platypus Cleanstream (the gravity filters of these brands are exactly the same with different color cartridge and different "dirty" bag setup), are not field maintainable. The Hiker Pro will eventually clog and needs replacing. The gravity filters are backflushable and I would guess they have longer lifespan than the Hiker Pro. Ceramic filters clog but then you scrub off a layer to clean them, until all the ceramic is gone. All of them are susceptible to breakage on a microscopic level if frozen, so when the temps start to dip below 32F put the filter in your foot box.

Gravity filters can double as a water bucket, a shower, or water storage at base camp, and the simplicity of it appeals to me as well as the multi-use aspect. I like a nice shower about every third day and you can hang the bag in the sun to warm up the water. The Cleanstream is about as fast as the pump filters and no trouble at all - and no pumping necessary.

I've noticed gravity filters appearing in greater numbers on my hiking group's annual fourth of July backpack trip - think people notice that I am doing more fishing and less filtering than they do.

ah yes and in the category of different strokes, I threw away my ceramic gravity filter. It was too fussy, took too long to get water, (My PUR hiker pump is MUCH faster). If you're sitting around camp maybe a gravity filter is fast enough, but if stop for a quick cuppa and some hot soup along a lake, I can have water on in a couple minutes. AND if the ceramic freezes its probably ruined.

As for sleeping pads. Many people carry multiple pads to layer. Either go with pads that can be punctured and still work, or go inflateable - two layers of nylon filled (lofted - puffed?)with air and insulation is the lightest for of insulation you can sleep on.
Jim

Some people are just cold sleepers too! I use a NorthFace Snowshoe sleeping bag as my summer bag - which is a 0-32 degree bag and was perfectly toasty (not too warm or cold) in Yosemite this year. It got no where near 32 degrees... (June) I just sleep really cold.

Hydration and a bit of dark chocolate (or cheese etc) is very important for me staying warm at night. Oh, and socks and a hat too. For everything but the desert. =)

How can you sleep the wrong way in a tent?

As i have noted previously, I use the gravity filter on the trail and am done before the pump filter people. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't classify it as a camp only device.

All filters need to be kept from freezing, including PUR/Katadyn glass fiber ones.

You can fiddle with your pack, or lighten your load.

I carry a hammock and tarp or single man tent- or sometimes just a tarp. The hammock is more comfortable but heavier.

I bathe every few days (or more frequently) by either taking a dip, or a washdown in my little pot using a liner sock like a sponge bath. - I often take a wet wipe per day on shorter trips.

I hate filters, and nasty tasting chemicals. I use chlorine dioxide drops - doesn't break, doesn't taste, and a lot lighter than a filter.

If I'm using the little bitty tent, and 3/4 length pad, all my gear without water and food and fuel weighs about 10 pounds (for normal season backpacking, not winter). If I take the hammock and tarp instead I often end up around 13 to 15, depending on the hammock (ok I have a few of them)

My shoulders aren't sore, because I'm carrying somwhere between 15 to 20 pounds total for a weekender, typically. my starting weight for a week on the trail is about 28 pounds.

my backpack weighs a little over a pound

The point is, if your shoulders are sore, lighten up. if you're cold, get a better pad and bag. both those will lighten you up considerably. (and your wallet, esp. the sleeping bag)

It's been awhile since I've checked in here.

I've got most of my stuff now. Still need to get a water filter and a few other little things, but feeling pretty good about it. Pretty broke, too, I guess. :-p

I've been sick a LOT since my daughter started school last fall. I was sick pretty much from Sept. through Dec. (thank goodness for the holiday break at the end of the month!) and I just didn't really train at all. I kept waiting to not be sick with something, thinking surely it would be soon, but it just kept coming. Come Jan. I was only well for a week or so before coming down with something again. Finally, I started trying to train in earnest in Feb. and started with a goal of at least 5 miles of something 5 days or more a week (walking or stationary bike), which was frighteningly difficult at first, but by the end of the month I was putting in 10 miles a day, then 15 a day, on the stationary bike. I found that I only had time to do about 5 miles hiking while my daughter was at school, so the bike made it possible for me to do a longer distance each day. My concern is that I can't seem to manage running at ALL. I figured that running would be a good training method since I didn't have time to hike more than 5 miles a day and while the bike is good, it's not all that similar to hiking; I thought if I ran, I could get a workout similar to hiking and do it faster to boot. I figured running 5 miles might be kind of like hiking 10. Anyway, I was never any good at running (made the track team as a kid because I could make it a whole mile, but that was years ago and I was never very fast and a mile was my limit), but I am confused that I can do so much on the bike, but can't do the running thing. (I just put in 26 miles on the bike tonight, new record for me; but I bet you I could not run a quarter mile.) I just don't seem to be able to breath well enough to run. I've built quite a bit of muscle in my legs the last few months, so it's not that part that's the problem, it's definitely my lungs. Considering that I'm going to be climbing at elevation, this has me freaked out. Anyone else experience anything like this? What's the deal and should I be worried? I was diagnosed with asthma as a kid after "failing" (not sure what the criteria were?) a spirometry test, but have never really had any issues with it; my diagnosis always felt more like a technicality than a reality.

I will probably keep trying to work up to running, just because I feel I shouldn't just rely on biking and I don't feel like walking 5 miles a day is going to cut it, but I'm just kind of wondering if it's possible to be in good enough shape to do a serious backpacking trip at moderate elevation, but not be able to run, or if this is a major red flag.

Thanks.

Modified to add: I've got my stationary bike set at 11 as far as the resistance goes. What that means, I'm not sure. It goes up to 15, which is the "you can barely move the pedals" setting.

Kievalina,

Working out for backpacking does not need to be painful or too tiring. Five miles a day at a strolling pace is plenty to get ready. Your definition of a stroll will be faster as you put on the miles. It comes naturally. The miles don't have to be done all at once. They can be spread out over the day. When it feels comfortable, you can do more.

Using an exercise bike at high tension can cause knee issues and back issues. The back problems can be serious. I'd suggest using a pressure where you can comfortably spin at least 70 RPM. A little higher would be better with time.

Unless you enjoy running and using the exercise bike, there is no need for them. Simply walking is good enough. As long as you have a reasonable aerobic capacity, you will be fine. Walking will get you there. A high aerobic capacity does not mean you won't breath a little harder at altitude. But unless you are one of the few who have real altitude problems, you can just hike a little slower. Most people do.

It may be your frequency of illness is tied to over exercising. My philosophy is that if I feel the need for a lot more sleep, I'm exercising too much. Also, if any residual soreness from the previous day doesn't disappear in the first few minutes, I'm exercising too much.

Keep in mind, most people you will see on the trail have done nothing to get in shape. Whatever you do will be an improvement. It's more about keeping the feet moving for a reasonable time than going fast. It's also about not trying to beat the trail. Move at a comfortable pace without heavy breathing and you will get there as quickly as most.

Don't forget to spend some time getting real comfortable with gear. That can be done at home. Sometimes the simple things can cause a lot of frustration.

One more note:

Cycling works quite well at getting you fit. I ride a lot, and at 60 I am always in good shape on the trail. If you prefer cycling over walking or running, then do it. Whatever gives you the best chance of getting a workout.

And you will find running a lot easier once you find your pace. Most people start out running too fast, and then get out of breath very quickly. Start slow, and find a pace that you can keep up for a long time. It won't seem a lot faster than walking...but if your goal is five miles a day, it will make a difference if you run in instead of walk it.

If you want to hike and not suffer, you should be hiking. I may have mentioned somewhere else, or in this thread, that all the runners and bikers and gym-goers who just pop up in our hiking group and take on the longer day hikes find that this is what happens to them - they don't understand, because they think biking 100 miles daily equates to being in shape for hiking. It is a different sort of effort and it will feel different.

All I do is hike - I do none of the stuff you are talking about. I've passed the physical fitness test for SAR annually - 8 miles in three hours with 25 lb backpack, with at least 1200 feet of gain on the hike. i usually have to add weight to the backpack to get it there. I can do 15 mile days. We are required to be able to hike 3-4 mph for 8 miles and THEN start searching. Backpacking is endurance, not aerobics. Biking doesn't simulate it at all, running isn't the same effort. Running is putting more stress on the body than the biking, which is aerobic - all your weight is going on the bike seat, not your legs. And you've noticed your breathing isn't the same - yep, you're working the lungs harder when your body works harder. This is also the difference between walking down the street and hiking. The body works harder hiking. Especially if your backpacking trip is 1,000-5,000 feet higher elevation than the daily exercise you're doing.

Not to say it doesn't help, but it's just not adequate on its own. The five mile hikes are what you need to do, with the shoes and socks you'll use, plus about a 15 lb pack.

"It's also about not trying to beat the trail."

Repeat that to yourself at least twice an hour - it's one of the most important, if not THE most important - rules of backpacking!

Hrm. Thanks.

I guess I thought that running would be the closest thing I could get to trying to hike at altitude as far as my lungs were concerned. Do you think that's a faulty assumption? I'm less concerned about my legs giving out than I am about my lungs not being efficient enough.

Also, while 5 miles a day might be good, I'm trying to factor in that these 5 miles aren't at elevation and I'm going to be doing more like 8 a day (or, in the case of the first day, 9). I kind of figured that maybe 9 miles there was more like 18 here, factoring in the terrain (difficult) and the elevation (a whole lot higher than I'm used to). Given that, I figured I needed to do more than walk 5 miles a day. I don't have time (wish I did) to do 18 mile hikes in a day, though. So, that's how I came to running and biking... to try to fill that "gap" I perceived.

I have a lot of my stuff now, but still not everything, so I don't have my full pack weight yet, but I will probably try to start walking with that soon, too.

I found some exercises online for strengthening one's back muscles. I may add those exercises to my day, too. Any particular exercises anyone likes/recommends for that area?

Any other thoughts/suggestions?

Stadium steps with a pack on.

I tend to believe running is over-rated as an exercise. It is useful if you are being chased or chasing someone... other than that I think it tends to be too jarring on the joints. Backpacking is a "slow and steady wins the race" kind of activity (at least in my book). I think you are doing the right things for building up you aerobic capacity. The one thing I would add is climbing to build up your muscles. Go to a stadium, or tall building and walk up and down the stairs. You don't need to do it fast, you just want to build up the muscles. Add in your pack and see how you are doing.

For strengthening your back there is nothing like walking and crunches. My father (a doctor) once told me walking a mile a day has been shown to be one of the most effective treatments for people with back problems.

kievalina,

I also wanted to add how impressed I am with what you have done so far. I will admit that when you first started posting a while back I didn't think there was much chance you would actually take the advice people on here gave you. Your update has shown how determined you are to do this trip. If you keep this up I think you are going to have a wonderful time. Well done so far and kudos to you!

Studies have shown that people who are in less good shape actually do better at altitude. The reason is pacing. Hot shots start out too fast, because they are in shape and can. Less physically fit people start slow because they have to!

Running 5 miles is NOT like walking 10 miles at altitude. Pacing, learning the rest-step (and other breathing techniques), and getting some days at altitude are what make you do well at altitude. The key at altitude is to set a comfortable breathing rate/heart rate, then walk as slow or fast as necessary to keep that breathing rate. The worst thing you can do at high altitude is try to keep up with someone else! Slow steady rythmic breathing works better than stop and go, gasp and rest. Hiking up hills is the best thing to learn how to rythmatically breath and do the "rest step". You need to practice until you can climb up hills for an hour without getting out of breath or gasping. First do it without a pack, then add a pack.

PS - I sympathize with the illness. I have grandkids and every time I care for them they have colds and I get sick. Once they get into preschool or school it takes a few years to gain some resistance so they bring everything home!

I just went over this thread kind of fast, and while I don't want to stir things up, oldranger and ringtail both expressed some concerns about the trip you described...



I didn't see you respond to their concerns...





Maybe I missed it?

I agree that there is nothing like hiking with a pack to get in shape for hiking with a pack. I don't agree that running, cycling and other sorts of aerobic activities don't help. Sure, the specific muscles that you use to hike don't get the optimum sort of exercise if you are running or cycling. But, running, cycling or brisk walking are all endurance exercises and go a long way towards building an aerobic base that will serve you regardless of the sort of endurance exercise in which you are engaged. I would also add that resistance exercises such as free weights or weight machines will add a lot to one's uphill horsepower. Both aerobic and strength exercise are especially important in the off-season if you wish to get a fairly painless start when hiking weather rolls around (I'm no longer a winter backpacker). And, being in my mid-70's, I feel that I need to stay fit all the time or it will go away never to return.

My year-around regimen is: weight work twice a week; cycle 2-3 times a week to a total of about 40-50 miles per week; and walk briskly every day about 1.5-2 miles. I also hike one of several trails in the local mountains once a week. This is typically an eight-ten mile round trip with an elevation gain of 1600 to 1800 feet; I do it in about four hours including a 30 minute lunch break at the top. The high point of the hike is about 7500'. The hike alone will not serve me for my desired level of fitness nor will just the aerobic and strength training. I think that they all go together as part of a sensible fitness plan.

Bill,

Yes, there's a reason we're doing this trail. I wasn't the one that choose it; it's one my dad and stepbrother did last year. They have good experience with the trail.

No, I am definitely NOT taking my 5 year old. ;-)

Hiking with not too heavy a pack is the best exercise to prepare for backpacking. You don't have to use full pack weight; just a day pack is fine. Hiking with a heavy pack (especially on hard surfaces) or running can easily lead to stress injuries (been there, done that!) which could spoil your whole summer. In fact, I'm just getting over a bout of plantar fascitis (fortunately minor) from overtraining. I haven't been able to run at all since a knee injury (skiing) in the late 1980s. I don't miss it, either. IMHO, running is overrated. Some folks can run and run with no problems. More of them end up with stress injuries over time. Walking is better!

I've found that the best conditioning program for me is to alternate forms of exercise from day to day. Doing the same thing every day causes bone, joint, tendon and muscle problems from repetitive stress. I do a 1/2 hour really fast walk (about 3 mph, fast enough that my dog has to trot) plus 20 minutes on the exercise bike one day, a 1 1/2 to 2 hour slower walk the next. I have to walk my dog every day (I haven't been able to teach him to cycle :D), or I'd do a non-weight-bearing exercise, such as cycling or swimming, instead of walking on those short walk days. I find it really important to have at least one rest day per week. Two rest days (not in a row) are better if I haven't been exercising or have had to cut back due to illness or injury. I work up gradually to a faster walking pace, using interval training rather than a steady fast pace. I try to do a longer walk (but at a slower pace) one day a week--a day hike, if I can (go out on a dayhike with the meetup folks), 2-3 hours if I can't. Hills are excellent, and there are a lot of them where I live, but don't try to push speed on the downhill to avoid stress injury. Stairs will work (although dull) if no hills. You mentioned Sleeping Bear--hiking on sand is twice as hard as hiking on normal ground! If you can work up to 4-5 miles on the dunes, you'll probably leave everyone in your dust on 10 mile days when you get into the mountains! Even hiking flat beach is good! I often do it barefoot, although I try not to do it a lot because the sand scours off needed calluses. Using trekking poles (get the rubber tips for them to use on sidewalks), called Nordic walking, turns walking into a whole body exercise that exercises the core (abdominal) muscles, not just the lower body. Interval training, rather than keeping a constant speed, is much better (and less boring) for working up speed.

Strength training, with light weights and more repetitions rather than straining with heavy weights, is good, too. So are all core muscle exercises. Just start slow, work up gradually, and go 2-3 days between workouts. With weights, as with the tension on the exercise bike, don't overdo them!

I've been working a lot on balance exercises. I've been walking lines on the floor and have progressed to walking a 2 x 4 laid down on the floor. Pretty soon I'm going to get some bricks and elevate it. I'm already a lot more confidant on log crossings when I hike!

Here's a good article on conditioning for hiking.

Most of the studies done on acclimatization (I listed a link to an excellent NOLS article much earlier in this thread) to high altitude show that physical conditioning actually has very little to do with acclimatization--it seems to be more a genetic thing. Of course if you're completely unfit, hiking will be a lot harder whether or not at altitude!

Proper diet and enough sleep (hard for a mom to accomplish!) are just as important as exercise. Unfortunately, other than that there's nothing you can do about the illnesses the kids bring home from school! Unless you're completely laid up, don't eliminate your exercise program when you have a cold. Just reduce the length and intensity of your exercise. Once you start to recover, getting out in the fresh air helps! Eventually you build up some immunity. I do find that I get less sick and recover faster around my grandchildren than I did around my own children, for whatever that's worth.

I didn't say otherwise.

I did say that all I do is hike and that is true. And it works very well for me. I don't do special diets, don't work out, can't afford the gym. When I have enough in the bank the yoga studio is the first place I will go - back into 2-3x week yoga to build the core muscles and develop better balance and muscle tone. People think yoga isn't exercise - it's the best kind, no torture of the joints or feet, plenty of muscle activity. Perfect to balance all the pounding of the feet on a hike.

I have a pedometer app on my phone. It shows more than 24,000 steps at the end of two days of backpacking - that's a lot of pounding on those poor flat feet of mine wearing a pack!

Altitude sickness is something that you need to know about and avoid. The good news is that at the altitudes you are talking about, most people will slow down, lose thier appatite and get a mild headache but not get seriously altitude sick. The key is to go slow and breath steadily. Do not let the other members of the party push you to the point of getting totally out of breath. If they want the group to go fast, they can carry some of your gear. It would be a good idea to spend a day and night in the 4000-6000 foot range before hiking up to 8,000. I regularly go from sea level to 8,000 feet in a day and do not have any issues, as long as I take it easy on the first day.

If you feel that your work-outs are not doing any good with respect to lung capacity there is a slight possibility that you have a heart problem. I friend of mine had a hole in her heart (from birth) and always just thought she was slow. She worked NOLS courses and then was a postal delivery person for 20+ years. In her 40's they finally discovered her heart problem. After easy surgery she was cured! And she was amazed at how effortlessly she now could hike. My husband has had off-and-on arythmia all his life. After a recent stress test he found out his heart was 40% efficient. He is now on some medication that really helps.

I guess the bottom line is that if you feel you can never get "in shape" aerobically at sea level, you may want to go to a cardiologist and get some tests just to rule out any underlying medical condition.

It does not always rain in the northern Rockies - statistically you get about 2 out of 3 days as good weather. There is a thunder storm season when you get daily afternoon storms (usually late July - end of August).

As for a trail that follows a ledge with a drop-off- do some reasearch - call the NP if needed, and get some good information on the trail. 18" wide trail and sheer dropoff sounds a bit exaggerated to me.

My lung capacity sucks. I haven't found a way to fix it either (so if you do, let me know!) Yoga has helped a bit. Though I'm not in the best athletic shape either...

My two cents (I learned this from WD) - just go your own pace. I go faster by going slower! (breaks are shorter and less often) And as much as I love my husband, he can go suck eggs on the whole hurry up thing You will be happier if you go your own speed or the speed of the slowest person in your group. If someone is slower than you, just take that time to take pictures or enjoy the view.

Yeah, it sounded a bit nuts to me, too. I think my dad might have played it up a bit just to make sure I took it seriously. ;-) That's okay; I'd rather work harder than I have to now and be more worried than I need to be, and show up and have it be much easier and less intimidating than I expected.

I have had some heart testing before and it all looked fine. (Had issues with passing out; still do to some extent, but not nearly as bad. I just have low blood pressure and need to make sure I drink a lot and eat more salt than the average person, but I ended up with an EKG, which I assume I passed because they never told me otherwise.) But come to think of it, I think my mom had some sort of genetic heart abnormality. I will have to ask my grandma about that and let my doctor know.

Heather, I'm glad to know someone else with crappy lung capacity can hike. That makes me feel a whole lot better.