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#154731 - 09/16/11 10:56 AM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: skcreidc]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
One other thing I forgot to mention, kievalina: Your original post was oriented toward getting ready for a trip to the western mountains. In your last post, you mentioned putting that on a back burner and trying to do local trips.

Don't underestimate the pleasure of those local trips. Although I occasionally get to the mountains of West Virginia and the AT in western Virginia, the vast majority of my trips have been within 4 hours of home, in hill country and flatlands. I've never backpacked west of the Mississippi. And you know what? I've still had great times!

Backpacking is as much a state of mind as anything. The important thing, to me, is being out and away. Wherever I've been, there's been something that makes me go "Neat!" "Cool" or "Wow!" It might be spotting my first moose or watching a Lake Superior gale blow ashore at Isle Royale, or the views off Mt. Rogers in Virginia, or feeling the almost-physical presence of God one quiet solo evening in the Red River Gorge - or merely encountering 12 deer over an hour in silencce of the early hours of a crisp January morning at a state park 25 miles from my home in the corn belt.

Take those local trips; you won't be "settling" by doing so. As the author Harry Roberts (no relation) once said, "Backpacking exists everywhere - and it's good everywhere." If you end up deciding you're not up to the Big Trip West, that's fine. It is, quite literally, "all good."

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#154734 - 09/16/11 12:43 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: Glenn]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
The above comments are spot on. I one thing I have noticed doing SAR is that the single element common to victims was inexperience. Get experience and you will be fine. Start slow and easy, in your backyard is just fine. Work out from there. Read up - Colin Fletcher has written some good stuff. Study accident situations and learn what works and what does not. Carry the ten essentials. Learn first aid (take a course - it will be broadly useful in life, not just hiking). Learn how to use a map and compass. Figure out what meals and snacks are appealing and nutritious for you when outdoors. Gradually get into shape and harden your body.

Gradually extend your horizons and you will have a marvelous time.

Enjoy!

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#154738 - 09/16/11 02:19 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: oldranger]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6760
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Lots of great advice here! Gershon's is, IMHO, the simplest and the best!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#154747 - 09/16/11 05:14 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: skcreidc]
FredMT Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/11
Posts: 38
Thanks everyone for changing the attitude. All I am saying is that you can't find a better trail for testing your altitude ability. 8 days means way less than 1,000 ft per day. I suggested leaving the option open to camp at 7,000 the first night on the trail. It is almost a given that they have to camp at 6,000 the night before. They plan on 7,700 the first night which means they camp there 2 nights or move up to 8,000. Night three 8,700 maybe and night four would never be above 9,500. A 1/2 hour of actual walking takes them up to but not over 10,000 feet and back down to 9,500 .....etc. All way less than anything usually recommended. The scenery is so nice that rushing up the trail would be against human nature and ought to be a crime.

You cannot know how you will do at altitudes until you get there. I have had a dozen or so people swear they had AMS but didn't. It starts with anxiety and tight muscles from these stories. This causes them to work much harder going up the hill than necessary. This causes heavy breathing and headaches. Their stomachs are usually in a knot from the stories, and they haven't felt like eating. This causes low blood sugar and light headedness. They forget to drink enough water because their stomach is already upset. It usually takes an hour to calm them down and get them to eat and drink. I explain it is unlikely, but we will watch. After I get them talking, laughing, and enjoying the scenery, it all goes away. The next day at higher elevations they seem like they just finished boot camp comparatively.

I am not complaining about the warnings, just the lack of quantifying it and making it seem inevitable. The original poster seems to agree with me "put off" I believe was the term........ and then Lori did it again! I did not think the purpose of this forum was to run people off.

PS. Patients is appreciated if I am not explaining the correctly. All I am saying is a little bedside manner and consideration to the original poster and their specifics should/would be prudent. Discuss the rest in another thread or backtalk.


Edited by FredMT (09/16/11 05:27 PM)

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#154749 - 09/16/11 05:38 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: skcreidc]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By skcreidc

I will say this about when it occures from my own experience; 10,000 feet generally seems to be the magic number for some reason. But I have had to haul people out from 9000 ft as well.


As a volunteer SAR who goes on mutual aids in Yosemite and has the opportunity to talk to those fine folks, I can attest to a variety of rescues for altitude issues - down to 4-5,000 feet elevation. You're just not going to hear about them. Why would newspapers report successes? There would be three or four every day all season long, in Yosemite.

While not common as dehydration (which happens too easily and before people notice it), it's enough of a concern that I always warn hiking groups (from my larger hiking group, I don't organize all outings myself) to read up on symptoms and know what to do if they have them, from the perspective of someone who has a background in SAR and believes in preventive measures. I also provide info on dehydration, hypothermia (more common in summer than in winter), and the basic gear list essentials to decrease risk of serious outcomes.

It's also very clear to me, from some of the experiences people have had while hiking with the group, that very few people take that seriously.

Quote:


Tis better to get to a 6000 elevation early and give your self 2 to 3 days to acclimatize with day hikes to higher elevations of 7 or 8000 ft to see how you do. If everything is OK, go from there. Leave time in the schedule for stopping at unexpected spots, or dropping to lower elevation, should some nausea or headaches occur.

Disorientation is a bad sign; get that person out.

So that is how I approach the thing. Again there are people/articles out there with far more experience than me out there. This is what I have learned from personal experience and reading.

sK


A reasonable approach - trouble is, people have limited vacation time and frequently want to make the most of the time so don't stack on days to acclimate.

We've been trained in SAR to look for the umbles - stumbles, fumbles, mumbles.

_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#154751 - 09/16/11 06:13 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: lori]
FredMT Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/11
Posts: 38
I do understand your point. What really got me started was her own husband saying that people die at that altitude. I can't seem to find anything to back that up, and if you could find an example, it would have to be a combination of other factors as well. Gross negligence? I had to get a 75 year old man out of the south end of this trail a couple years ago. Only 4 or 5 miles. He had a mild heart attach. His son, his doctor, was there. Yes, things do happen in the wilderness, but his response was more like "couldn't be a better way to go". The 15 miles I did that morning with double heavy packs was more discerning to him than the heart attack. Long time backpacker don't flinch at much.

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#154754 - 09/16/11 08:21 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: FredMT]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Maybe he's reading accounts of Everest. Something like this (inconsistent, one measurement reads meters, the other in feet?) article - http://www.suite101.com/content/the-dangers-of-mount-everest-a244889

What taints things like accounts of HAPE deaths on Everest - no mention of the extreme amount of motivation people feel to complete the trip. Going to the top of Everest involves paying HUGE amounts of money to the government of Tibet, hiring sherpas, buying thousands of dollars worth of gear (including oxygen tanks), hiring guides - there is so much invested in the trip that people push forward no matter what. Unlike backpacking trips where one can rationalize, I'll come back next year and stay at mid elevation for two days, and acclimatize.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#154758 - 09/16/11 09:22 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: FredMT]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1109
Loc: Colorado
Warning: Long post.

When I was a pilot in the Air Force, I got a lot of training on altitude sickness. Before saying anything, I wanted to brush up on my knowledge.

Many people think there is only one cause of altitude sickness. Hypoxia. Which is a shortage of oxygen to the brain. This can be characterized by shortness of breath like a smoker, or just a discomfort in breathing. Like air is coming in and it's not doing any good. Headaches will likely occur with exposure of a few hours. And vomiting can occur. The solution to hypoxia is simply go to a lower altitude. If a person won't walk, it may help to have them lay with their head lower than their heart. Having them drink something may help as it can be confused with dehydration. Hot chocolate is said to reduce symptoms. I saw it work in just a few minutes. In Colorado, you can legally use pot for medicinal purposes with a license. A few puffs of that may help, too.

But hypoxia isn't likely to kill anyone at reasonable altitudes unless there are other medical problems. What will kill people is the OTHER kind of altitude sickness. It's commonly called the bends which is associated with diving.

The bends is caused by nitrogen coming out of the blood and other liquids in the body when we go up in altitude. Think taking the top off a soda bottle. Most hike too slowly to go up fast enough to cause a problem, or the hills aren't steep enough. But a person who drives to a high trailhead and starts hiking quickly uphill may have a problem.

Think of what happens to a potato chip bag when you bring it up in altitude. It expands a lot and that can happen in litte tissue pockets as nitrogen is released from solution. The problem is, if you get a little tear, the pressure is released and a lot more gas comes out. It's like taking the top off a soda bottle.

The bends has nothing to do with what shape a person is. It's simply their physiology. Backpackers have few problems simply because they move more slowly than a hiker without a pack.

Once a tissue tear occurs, going to a low altitude will not do anything to mend that tear. It will prevent further tears. Unfortunatly, having the person walk down will shake the soda bottle and cause more gas to be released.

It's likely a bad idea to drive from sea level to a trailhead above 4,000 feet and hike hard to 8,000 feet. (The pressure loss per 1,000 feet is higher at lower altitudes.) Simply taking more frequent breaks even if not tired can help. The greater the distance you climb in the car before hiking, the more likely it is you will get a pulminary or cerebral endema unless you take a day to acclimate to the higher altitude. Two days is safer.

How common is an endema? One in a hundred that goes above 3,500 meters will have one if they don't acclimate first. Source - table 25-1

Fred, the reason it's not a problem in planes is the pilots aren't hiking. They are generally sitting still, so the nitrogen doesn't come out of solution. But it CAN happen above 25,000 feet. That's the reason you can't fly above 25,000 feet without a pressurized cabin.

Now, back to hypoxia so an experienced person can tell the difference for themselves. We were taught the FIRST symptom of hypoxia never changes during our lifetime. For me it's a tingling in the fingers. The fancy term is "parethesia." Others have different symptoms. If the first symptom is something other than you personal first symptom, then there is a good chance it's an endema.

Lori, I'm guessing SAR carries oxygen bottles for these types of things as administering oxygen is the first treatment for both. If it's just the bends and no endemas have occurred, it will clear up in an hour or two of using oxygen.

Coughing blood or mental confusion approaching that of a drunk are both causes for extreme concern. Another cause for concern is shortness of breath that doesn't disappear when resting. If the heart rate remains elevated even when resting (above about 110) that is also cause for concern an endema is occuring. If fingers start to turn blue, it's time to panic.

This summer, my son had a pretty good case of hypoxia. He often hikes with a migraine so a headache isn't a good first symptom. But it is his first symptom of hypoxia. We were at about 11,000 feet still about 1/4 mile uphill to our campsite when we got hit with one of those sudden Colorado rainstorms. I saw it coming and called a halt to set up the tent quickly. That's when he had the urge to puke three times. He also had some mental confusion similar to having a couple drinks. He made a video of himself of all things, but I don't think he'd want me to share it.

I was glad I'd practiced setting up the tent myself in less than 5 minutes.

I had him lay down and made some hot chocolate. And he took a few puffs. (It's the only thing that touches his migraines and is a legal prescription.) Within a few minutes, he was fine and ready to eat. Going back down wasn't an option as it was getting close to dark and it was still raining.






Edited by Gershon (09/16/11 09:38 PM)
_________________________
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#154760 - 09/16/11 10:19 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: Gershon]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Gershon


It's likely a bad idea to drive from sea level to a trailhead above 4,000 feet and hike hard to 8,000 feet. (The pressure loss per 1,000 feet is higher at lower altitudes.) Simply taking more frequent breaks even if not tired can help. The greater the distance you climb in the car before hiking, the more likely it is you will get a pulminary or cerebral endema unless you take a day to acclimate to the higher altitude. Two days is safer.

<snip>

Lori, I'm guessing SAR carries oxygen bottles for these types of things as administering oxygen is the first treatment for both. If it's just the bends and no endemas have occurred, it will clear up in an hour or two of using oxygen.



I guess I do bad things a whole lot. I'm doing it again tomorrow, and doing it again the following day.

We don't carry oxygen. Pop in the car, drive at 70 mph (with escort) from 500 feet to 9,000 feet, hop in a helo that flies at 10-11,000 for a few minutes, get dropped off at 10k, hike around like crazy, get on the helo, go back to base, do it again the next day. If someone has a problem they go back and depart on the helo early.

I haven't had symptoms worse than a little shortness of breath and loss of appetite the first day out. My headaches have a lot more to do with water intake - proper hydration eliminates them 9 times out of 10.

Which is not to say I won't ever have bad symptoms... but I'll probably turn around and head back down if I do, before they get much worse. Not really one to suffer for the hike. I turned around on a Whitney backpack due to inclement conditions, I'd certainly do it if I became ill.

_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#154763 - 09/16/11 11:46 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: lori]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6760
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Proper hydration is a big key to preventing a lot of problems, only one of which is altitude sickness.
Here is an excellent writeup on altitude illness from NOLS Wilderness First Aid.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#154764 - 09/16/11 11:57 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: OregonMouse]
FredMT Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/11
Posts: 38
So to apply this to the O. P. A day to get to Billings, two if by Amtrak. Another day shutting vehicles and sight seeing at 6,000 to 10,000. That pretty much covers the safety factor. And camping at the trail head the first night since it will be too late to get started anyway.

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#154768 - 09/17/11 12:48 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: FredMT]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2087
Loc: Napa, CA
On note about airplanes, since Gershon raised the issue.

Most airlines tell you that they pressurize the cabin to 5,000 feet (which is a lot better than the 30,000 feet they're flying!)

But since I got a watch with an altimeter in it, I often check that while i am flying. I have NEVER been on a plane that was pressurized to 5,000 feet, and I fly well over 100,000 miles a year. The average seems to be about 6500 feet...and I've been on planes that were around 7800 feet.

so If you feel lousy after a flight, that might be one of the reasons. It's a great idea to stay hydrated on those flights (as well as in the mountains!)

_________________________
balzaccom

check out our website and blog: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/home

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#154862 - 09/19/11 08:47 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: kievalina]
kievalina Offline
member

Registered: 09/01/11
Posts: 38
Loc: metro detroit, mi
Waded through everything...

To clarify a few things...

The friend whose husband camps/hikes says her husband doesn't do that often (last time was several years ago) and doesn't do it around here (last one was in Scotland, I think?) so that's a bust.

Joined a few of the meetup groups, just missed a newbie/intermediate hike that only happens in the Spring and Fall, so kind of out of luck on that until the Spring. (Spots filled fast, long waiting list, etc.) It would have been nearly perfect, like an hour or so from my house, etc. But it's full.

Tried hitting up another acquaintance who I believe hikes/backpacks, but he's crazy busy and who knows what will come out of that... We haven't been terribly close, either.

I have done day hikes... 6 miles or so in recent years is probably our max. So, not like sidewalk or mall walking, but not mountains, either. We've done some parks near Traverse City (thinking that won't mean anything to anyone here, actually) and Sleeping Bear Dunes. I live near several parks which are rather large for being in the middle of a city, actually. They have nature trails-- paved, unpaved, uphill, downhill.

My plan for now is to take the train, and so yes, the estimate one poster made that it'd be 2 days on train/bus is about correct.

My stepmother would be dropping us off at one trail head and picking us up at the other. We would walk 8 miles the first day to Rainbow Lake, I think it was. When they went, they arrived at Rainbow Lake to camp at 3 or 4 p.m, having started around 8:30 a.m. that day.

Trail starts at 6200 ft. and goes up to about 10000 at peak elevation and then ends at around 8200 ft. (I can see the specter of the dead horse now... laugh )

I was warned it rains a lot, but the rain never seems to last long, warned there was no shade, mosquitoes are terrible, there are lovely 300-400 foot drop offs next to the 18 inch wide trail (and, yes, that is going to scare the crap out of me) and the hike is hard and not much fun.

They had talked about tacking on an extra day at fossil lake, which I may have concerns over since that's at the highest elevation (dead horse, stay dead!). I was told that in terms of terrain, that's the easiest 5 to 6 mile stretch (that the rest is switchbacks-- up and down, and up and down, rinse and repeat).

I'll keep looking for trips to do here locally.

Oh, also I have slept in the backyard in a tent a few times (and peed in the woods a few times as well-- bonus points, perhaps?), but that's about where my experience "roughing it" ends. I have gotten caught while hiking in driving rain with a nice 10 or 20 degree temperature drop thrown in for good measure (Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes) and also gotten caught canoeing in some nice rain/wind (good times-- not). I'm told I went backpacking and camping... as a baby. Not surprisingly, however, I didn't take notes at the time.

Maybe what I really need is to re-visit Cedar Point (reference for the Ohio folk on the board). I remember walking an incredible number of miles in a day there and not even noticing. Ah to be a kid again.


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#154863 - 09/19/11 10:16 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: kievalina]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
kievalina, keep checking the meetup groups. I bet they will have additional trips in the future. You might even bring that topic up with them. You could just find a friend or 2 and do the same hike as the meetup group...

Just keep picking away at it. Each trip starts with a single step and if you keep putting one foot in front of the other, next thing you know you are there.

Let them tack on that extra day at "fossil lake". Use it if and when you need it though.


Edited by skcreidc (09/19/11 10:18 PM)

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#154870 - 09/20/11 02:10 AM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: skcreidc]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
I think you are overly concerned about the altitudes involved. While it is true that altitude sickness has been known to occur at altitudes below 10,000 feet, such cases are rare.. People in the west typically live at low altitudes, drive into the high mountains, and do quite well. Your trip west will get you started on acclimatization. Just take it easy the first few days.

Try working some running into your fitness routine. Cycling is another good cross over activity.

Is there some reason you absolutely have to do this particular trail? There are thousands of alternatives availa...

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#154871 - 09/20/11 02:47 AM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: kievalina]
FredMT Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/11
Posts: 38
You say hard, I say fun. Let's work on that. The first thing that makes a climb hard is not knowing what is around the next corner or when you are going to be there yet. The advantage is that the people you are going with have been on that trail recently. Most people tend to push through difficult stretches when they don,t know what to expect next. A lot of times those are the best views (behind them that they miss). I would bet they will pace things differently this time. One mile/hour isn't hard unless you are carrying a lot of weight. Try walking 1/4 mile by your house and making it take 15 minutes. It is hard to go that slow in that situation. You can also take 4 more hours the first day and still get there way before dark. Try taking more breaks. Walk at a normal pace, and when you feel yourself slowing down, sit for a minute, enjoy the scenery. The "good" walking you do will be soooooo much more productive and enjoyable.

Shoes (you will get a lot of diff. opinions on this). Take these http://m.thenorthface.com/mt/www.thenort...variationId=JS1 for example. This is the MOST you will need. Hiking boots (the heavy leather, hard sole, two months to break in) are out. Picture walking down an 8" deep tire rut with big clunky boots. You need a thick, comfortable, flexible sole for walking on jagged granite. The waterproof is good for rain and shallow stream crossings.

Rain gear. A lot of people here like ponchos because they are multi-use. You will need your arms and hands free on this trip. This is just for piece of mind. It is amazing how clostrophobic it gets when you think you may have to be ready to grab something while wearing a ponchos. Rain jacket and pants should have armpit zippers, full front zip, and 3/4+ leg zips so they go off and on quick. The hood on a rain coat is no good when hiking ion skinny ledge with backpack. When you turn your head to look at things, you see inside of hood. When you turn body to look at things because of hood, backpack hits cliff and causes heart to go fast. Bring separate rain hat. If brim all the way around, make sure pack does not get in the way (mostly just annoying).

Backpack. I strongly suggest NO external frame. You need your arms to move freely, and external frames are too wide. I tend to hit my funny bone on the aluminum bar every time I use one. Internal frames are more like climbing packs, making your agility better and the trip more fun. A Go-Lite style pack is about right for this trip. The pack doesn't need to be too abrasive resistant. Probably repeating this, but get the other gear first, then get the pack to fit.

Using your arms while walking helps a lot. Keeping in mind why I suggest these types of items when at the store will improve your fun factor. Nimble and agile are a lot less work than trudging up a hill.

Mosquitoes. Sprays and lotions are no fun when you are sweating. Look into clothing with repellent in them.

Sun. Lightweight clothing with spf.

Heat/shade. Probably your biggest challenge. So, do you carry more stuff for this (heavier pack, more sweating) or carry less so travel is easier? Most clothing is layered at night. Just make sure to include your hot weather clothes as part of your cold weather system too. The rain hat/ sun hat seems to be my setback, but I don't have a burn issue and don't like wearing hats, so I leave the sun hat home. Those bandanas with beads in them that soak up water are really good for keeping you cool.

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#154872 - 09/20/11 07:06 AM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: kievalina]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Yes, you get bonus points.

"I was warned...the hike is hard and not much fun."

I hope this only refers to the one climb, and not the whole trip. If it's the whole trip, seriously re-think things. The idea of backpacking is that it's a hobby. It should be fun - maybe not every minute, but the overall memory you take away from a trip should be, "I really enjoyed that."

I've only been to the Traverse City - Petoskey area once, but it looked like there was some great hiking country there (as I recall, there were a few wineries out one the peninsulas - what a great place for a trail to end?!)

Keep at it. You're just getting started; it will all click one of these days.

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#154873 - 09/20/11 07:26 AM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: kievalina]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By kievalina


Joined a few of the meetup groups, just missed a newbie/intermediate hike that only happens in the Spring and Fall, so kind of out of luck on that until the Spring. (Spots filled fast, long waiting list, etc.) It would have been nearly perfect, like an hour or so from my house, etc. But it's full.


It's not the only hike you'll find on the calendar. There will be others. I run two meetup groups and am a member of five, there are last minute hikes all the time. And don't forget, you can always suggest an encore of the hike you wanted to do!

Don't let the people who think you can't read or think for yourself get you down. You're doing fine. You'll figure it out. One of the things I discovered, after getting into forums like this after I started trying to backpack, is that you can ask two backpackers a question and get ten opinions. I've been told my gear won't work at least a hundred times, yet it does work.

I wouldn't go on the not-fun trip until you've gone on some fun trips and gotten the gear figured out - trips with challenges are fun, you just gotta prepare yourself right.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#154875 - 09/20/11 09:40 AM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: kievalina]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Originally Posted By kievalina
Trail starts at 6200 ft. and goes up to about 10000 at peak elevation and then ends at around 8200 ft. (I can see the specter of the dead horse now... laugh )

I was warned it rains a lot, but the rain never seems to last long, warned there was no shade, mosquitoes are terrible, there are lovely 300-400 foot drop offs next to the 18 inch wide trail (and, yes, that is going to scare the crap out of me) and the hike is hard and not much fun.


I am no expert in family dynamics and I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express. BUT, I am the father of a 26 year old daughter. I took her on a difficult 4 night Grand Canyon trip when she was 14 (in and out Tanner) We did regular Dad & Daughter trips when she was in high school. She is a strong & experienced hiker. I would NOT take her on the trip that you describe.

oldranger is correct. There are many less difficult trails that are more suitable.


Edited by ringtail (09/20/11 09:41 AM)
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#154887 - 09/20/11 01:30 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: FredMT]
ohiohiker Offline
member

Registered: 07/20/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Ohio
One thing I often do with new gear is run it through a reality test. This means a dark, windy, rainy or snowy night. Setup the shelter, unpack your pack, and cook on the stove. Everything is more challenging. If you have nice weather on your actual trip, everything will then be so easy. If not, things will go more smoothly because you've done it all before.

I always hope for bad weather on my trips though. smile

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#154907 - 09/20/11 09:32 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: ohiohiker]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Since we hike in the same neighborhood, please let me know when you're going to be out and about, so I can choose the other weekends! smile

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#154915 - 09/21/11 09:05 AM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: Glenn]
JPete Offline
member

Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 304
Loc: Eastern Ontario
This goes back to the altitude sickness part of the thread.

I've had it just once, and then rather mildly. But the circumstances may be instructive.

I was visiting my parents who lived in Loveland, Colorado. I had spent several days there and in Estes Park. Two days before, I had climbed a local high point that I think is about 7800 feet.

I went for Long's Peak and made it to the scree pile where the rock shelter is located. Stopped for lunch and realized I could not face food without throwing up. I recognized it as altitude sickness and broke out a Kendall's Mint Bar (remember those? Just sugar laced with mint oil). I managed to get down about a quarter of a bar.

Tried to go on along the very narrow and scary trail on the backside of the mountain and realized I was a little too unstable to be out there alone and turned back. I think that elevation is about 10,000 feet.

I was frustrated because I felt I should have been acclimated by that time. Incidentally, even though I did not make it all the way, I found that trip very enjoyable and memorable. I'd love to do it again, even if I had to quit again. (but where can I get mint cake these days?)

Best, jcp

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#154987 - 09/22/11 04:44 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: FredMT]
FredMT Offline
member

Registered: 08/05/11
Posts: 38
Adding to last post. Was just reminded that many people generally (in town) wear shoes that may be too short for hiking downhill with a heavy pack. The shoes I wear for climbing would stub my toes walking downhill on a trail for example. When in doubt, get the next size bigger and wear heavier socks if necessary.

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#155401 - 10/04/11 02:18 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: Glenn]
ohiohiker Offline
member

Registered: 07/20/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By Glenn
Since we hike in the same neighborhood, please let me know when you're going to be out and about, so I can choose the other weekends! smile


laugh

Oh, you'll know which weekends! wink

(I tried really hard to make it to Roaring Plains WV this past weekend, but couldn't because of schedule. The forecast called for rain/snow mix, temps hovering in the 30's, no accumulation, and wind gusts to 30 mph. What resulted was 5-8 inches of snow and down trees above 4000 ft. I'm even more disappointed I didn't make it! mad )

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#155402 - 10/04/11 02:28 PM Re: Need LOTS of help [Re: ohiohiker]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I've been working in Toledo 5 days of the last 2 weeks. It rained every day, so I'm assuming you were in Toledo, too? smile

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