so hi everyone im starcruzzer glad to be here. i am not a novice backpacker but im no pro either. i put together this backpacking checklist for a light 4 season pack (with a bit of help from REI). critique please! it does look like alot but if you look at the gear its actually mostly small things, and of course you would but light versions of the bigger stuff. like tent (i use a hammock though) and sleeping bag. just read and you'll notice that its a bunch of small light stuff!

Clothing
Outerwear
• _Waterproof jacket
• _Waterproof pants
• _Insulated parka (winter)
• _Fleece /synthetic jacket
• _Waterproof gaiters (winter)
• _Synthetic hiking pants
• _Synthetic shorts
• _Fleece pants (winter)
Base Layer
• _Expedition weight long john bottoms (winter)
• _Expedition weight long john top (winter)
• _Mid-weight long john top
• _Mid-weight long john bottoms (winter)
• _Long sleeve T-Shirt
• _Synthetic T-Shirt
• _Synthetic briefs
Accessories
• _Wool or fleece hat
• _Balaclava (winter)
• _Mid-weight wool or fleece gloves
• _Heavyweight wool or fleece mittens (winter)
• _Synthetic liner gloves (winter)
• _Waterproof over-mitts (winter)
Footwear
• _Waterproof hiking boots
• _Wool or synthetic socks (3)
• _Liner socks (2)
• _Insulated camp booties (winter)
• _Snow Shoes (winter)
Extras
• _Sun Hat
• _Bandanna
Gear
• _Internal or External frame Backpack
• _4 Season Sleeping Bag
• _4 Season Hammock or Tent
• _Sleeping Pad
• _White Gas Stove and Fuel
• _Lighter and starter matches
• _Cook-set
• _Spork, bowl, and insulated mug
• _Headlamp with extra batteries
• _32 oz water bottles (filter, tablets, or drops) (2)
• _Knife (Cold Steel)
• _Water bottle parkas (winter)
• _Compass (and map)
• _Sunglasses
• _First aid kit with personal medications
• _Personal locator beacon (optional)
• _Chemical heat packs (winter)
• _Stuff sacks
• _Sunscreen (SPF 15+)
• _Lip balm (SPF 15+)
• _Bear-bagging rope and bag (if necessary)
• _Toilet paper and trowel
• _Pee bottle (optional)
• _Snow Shovel (winter)
• _Ice axe (winter)
• _Carabineer (as many as needed)
• _Fire Strike
• _Para-cord (15 ft. plus)
• _Toothbrush
• _Whistle
• _Signaling Mirror
• _Emergency tent or shelter
• _Permits
• _Camera
• _Small amount of cash ($30+)
• _Trip Itinerary
• _Bear spray
• _Repair Kit
Food
• Breakfast
• _Hot chocolate
• _Coffee, tea
• _Instant Hot Cider
• _Instant oatmeal
• _ Granola
• _ Nature Valley Granola Bars
• _ Dried Fruit
• Lunch
• _Gorp
• _Bagels
• _String cheese
• _Hard cheese (lasts longer)
• _Jerky
• _Cookies
• _Crackers
• Dinner
• _Instant soup
• _Mountain House dinners (take what you need according to length)
• _Mountain House desserts (take what you need according to length)
• Other Snack Items
• _Energy bars
• _Drink Mix
• _Chewing Gum

Lots of small light stuff, still makes for a heavy pack. Besides this list is pretty much useless to critique without weights for these items, your location, planned trip length and expected temps.

For three-season only (I am ignoring winter gear)

-Nix either the pants or shorts-- or purchase a pair of convertibles.
-There is a world of different between a fleece and a synthetic jacket. Nix the the former, take the latter.
-Nix one T-shirt. One T-shirt and mid-weight top is enough for most 3-season use.

-Nix the heavy waterproof boots-- look into non-waterproof or trail runners. They are lighter and dry quicker. Your feet WILL get wet regardless. I would rather my shoes dry in overnight, than in 3-4 days.

- Nix one pair of socks. Two pair is fine (wear one, sleep in one).
- Liner socks, one pair is enough and depending on your location may not be necessary for three-season use.

-Go with an internal frame pack

-4 season sleeping bag is going to be heavy and too warm in the summer. Consider purchasing another bag for summer and warmer conditions.

- Same applies to your tent.

- Which sleeping pad. The is a world of difference between a Z-rest and winter pad.

- White gas is overkill in three-seasons
-Cook set-- what does this include?
-Spork, bowl etc-- isn't this part of your cookset?

-Nix the extra batteries for headlamp. Use fresh ones at start of trip.

-PBL, nix
-TP nix
-Trowel nix-- use a rock or stick.
-Pee bottle, serious, nix
-Cariberner-- what do you use these for? Nix if possible.
-Firestrike, lighter and matches? Nix one.

-What is the extra paracord for? Nix if possible.

-FAK, what is in here?

-Nix signal mirror
-Nix emergency tent/shelter
-Nix intinery-- memorize it-- it is YOUR trip. you should know it by heart.

-Bear spray-- not need IMHO
-Repair kit, what does this consist of?


I don't see:
- Hand/Clothes soap
- DEET

Since the lack of specifics-- something tells me that you do not actually have your gear yet.

Most i have and some i don't have headlamp, my tent broke last trip so new tent and i need some new clothing. and what specifics would you like. ill try to go through my gear and get some weigh ins. there's just a few things i need to get ut for the most part it's complete. thanks for those tips i looked back at em and didn't even know why i had it. like the trowel just why? thanks man.

I must concure that without weights or trip target it is difficult to give alot of feed back.

If you are going to Griz country then take the bear spray. Going to Alaska or northern Canada then you might need some of the winter stuff, but I need more specifics.

"lightweight 4 season"

Aside from the obvious things that others will comment on, I'll state right there is your biggest impediment.

Trying to do "four season" where winter is anything like serious will mean it's a heavy load the rest of the year, and/or dangerously light in winter.

Me - I keep two seperate lists.

Ditto. In fact, I even have a separate "summer" list since my spring and fall gear can still be too much at times, even here in the Colorado Rockies.

Starcruzzer, welcome to the site! If you haven't already found them, there are lots of excellent articles on gear selection and those wanting a lightweight pack listed in the left-hand column of http://www.backpacking.net/, the home page of this site. If you want a lightweight pack, please read through these articles before you do any more gear shopping! The gear lists there are especially helpful. After that reading, your next purchase should be a postage or kitchen scale that weighs to the nearest 0.1 ounce. Then weigh each gear item and set up a spreadsheet so you can see what the total weighs. (The spreadsheet is also a great checklist--I print mine off every time I go out!)

We really can't give you much advice about your gear unless you provide more detail in your profile--that's what it's for! Where do you live, where will you be backpacking, are you solo or part of a group, what weather conditions do you expect? The other information we need is the weight of each of your gear items (which is why you need the scale).

As stated above, unless your winters are really mild and your summers are cool, you do not want to try for a single set of "four season" gear. Clothing, most of it, is OK--just add more layers in winter. Sleeping bag, probably not. Tent, probably not. I have only one set of gear (with a few items added for "shoulder season" and for trips to the high Rockies where it can snow any time), but (1) I live in a mild climate (western Oregon) and (2) I don't go out overnight from mid-October through March.

Just one note on the "expedition" and "midweight" long underwear (known as "baselayer" these days). The purpose of the layer next to your skin is primarily to wick away moisture from your skin. A lightweight baselayer is actually far better for this purpose, regardless of weather. Other materials, such as synthetic fill or fleece, do a better job of insulating. I've gone the heavy baselayer route and it did not keep me any warmer, just made it harder to keep dry!

Please do the reading I suggested, give us the information we requested and add the weights (to save time, just edit your original post and make another post in this thread that you have added the weights). Then come back and we can give you specific advice! We'd love to help you, but we need more information!

ok let me make this clear when i say 4 season i meant that during spring fall and summer you take everything except the ones that say winter in parentheses. when i pack for winter i will just add all the gear that says winter in parentheses. i thought the layout of the list made that clear.

again for a 3 season pack i am going to take everything except the items that say winter.

when it is winter i will add the items that say winter.

You are missing point:

-Spring/Fall/Summer-- where? Summer in Socal is different than summer in MN.
-In fact, summer in Colorado is different than spring in Az.
Winter-- where? Winter in Colorado is different that AK.

Not evetybodies 3-season or winter gear list is the same!

How long for-- 3/4 days trips are different than 7+ trips.

Weights-- you still do not have any.

My FAK weighs 3oz for 2people plus one dog. For solo use it weighs around 1oz. What does your weigh-- how can we tell you things to look at?

We can all read the (winter) brackets-- but your list is still useless to us without weights, location, trip length and expected temps.

My suggestion-- first thing tomorrow you go out and purchase a scale and then weigh all of your gear individually, then respond back here so that we can help you.

also i want to point out that gear list on that website has almost everything i have and some unnecessary gear. can someone be specific on what i should drop and what i should add, like the first post.

You first need to be specific in order to get specific answers.

i understand, what i want to make clear is that if it's summer im obviously not going to be taking and ice axe or snow shovel.

and when i say summer i mean hot, when i say spring i mean mild, when i say fall i mean brisk, when i say winter i mean cold.

im not completely retarded about the states obviously summer in MN will be different in MN which btw i lived in minnesota summers aren't that bad.

sure i'll be specific. if you tell me what specific means to you.

tell me what you want. and oh sorry i wasn't able to put up weight. cause uh i do have stuff to do and can't drop everything and weigh my pack. but when i know ill send you a pm.

Fine--Generic three-season response:

-Nix WP pants. Not needed unless you live in a cold state.
-Waterproof jacket, make sure it weighs less than 10oz. Anything else is considered heavy
-nix the fleece/synthetic jacket-- just take the down insulated parka, period.
-Nix hiking pants-- shorts are fine.
-Nix fleece pants, they are heavy, look into Cap 1 or Cap 2.

-Keep the heavy weight top and bottoms for winter.
-Nix the mid-weights for winter, no need for both.
-Nix one T-shirt for 3-seasons.

-Go with a microfleece hat
-Keep the baly in winter

-Glove setup is fine

-Nix the heavy boots, switch to non-waterproof trail runners.
-Boots in winter

-Nix one pair of socks
-Nix both liner socks in three-seasons

-Internal frame pack
-Nix the four-season bag in three-season conditions. Look into a +20 and a +40 degree bag.
-Nix four season tent in three-season conditions. Look at a Tarp+bivy or Tarpent setup.
-Nix Gas stove in three-season condition-- go with an alcohol set-up.
-Nix your entire cookset, bowl and mug. Just purchase a small Ti mug for boiling water, combined with a spork and you will be fine.
-Nix knife-- take a razor blade
-FAK, pair down to 3oz or less.
-Nix PBL
-Nix stuff sacks, get a pack liner and be good.
-Sunscreen repackage into 1oz bottles or less.
-Nix firestrike-- take matches and lighter
-Nix signal mirror
-Nix carabeners-- can't think why you need them except for the PCT method, even then, only one is needed.
-Nix the cash, not need unless thru-hiking.
-Nix itinerary.
-Nix bear spray
-Nix repair kit-- just take duct-tape.

Starcruiser
what we are saying is that there IS NO generic list for 4 season or even 3. You have to plan for for each trip. For instance, say you are going to the Everglades in June, or going to the Tetons in September, or going to the grand Canyon in May. With your generic list your pack will weigh too much to enjoy yourself. It would be nice if it were as simple as you think, it isn't. Many of us fine tune our gear for each and every trip, AND we have the experience to know what we will need. Rather than collecting a huge amount of new gear that you will feel compelled to take along, concentrate on basics that will get you through your intended first trips. Then you will gain the experience to know what not to take. Indeed learning what not to take is the crux of camping. Some extremely experienced people can go into areas that they know with almost nothing at all.
Jim S and welcome, please write more.

i wanted to keep the WP pants, this is just for 3 season, so now im here:
Clothing
Outerwear
• _Waterproof jacket (less than 10 oz)
• _Waterproof pants
• _Fleece jacket
• _Synthetic hiking convertible
Base Layer
• _Mid-weight long john top
• _Mid weight long john bottoms
• _Synthetic T-Shirt
• _Synthetic briefs
Accessories
• _micro fleece hat
• _Mid-weight wool or fleece gloves
Footwear
• _Waterproof hiking boots
• _Wool or synthetic socks (2)
• _Liner socks (1) (winter)
Extras
• _Sun Hat
• _Bandanna
Gear
• _Internal frame Backpack
• _Sleeping Bag
• _Hammock or Tent
• _alcohol stove
• _Sleeping Pad
• _Lighter and starter matches
• _Spork, small TI mug
• _Headlamp
• _32 oz water bottles (filter, tablets, or drops) (2)
• _Knife (Cold Steel)
• _Compass (and map)
• _Sunglasses
• _First aid kit with personal medications (3oz or less)
• _Sunscreen (SPF 15+)
• _Lip balm (SPF 15+)
• _Bear-bagging rope and bag (if necessary)
• _Toilet paper
• _1 Carabineer
• _Fire Strike
• _Toothbrush
• _Whistle
• _Permits
• _Camera
• _Small amount of cash ($30+)
• _Few strips of duck tape
• _ Soap
• _Insect repellant
• _Rain cover

- Personally I don't like convertible pants. I take either shorts "or" pants. But YMMV.

-Fleece jacket, I would look for a down jacket. I use Montbell's Inner, but it is pricey.

-I would go with fleece over wool gloves.

-Still look into trail runners

-Hammock, tent *or* tarp.

-No Ti mug. Just a Ti pot and spork. Eat and drink out of the pot.

-Nix heavy knife-- look into something like a Gerber Evo JNR, or even lighter.
-Headlamp-- do you plan to hike at night? If not then something like an BD Ion is fine.
-Nix TP
-Nix Firestrike. Matches and lighter is fine.
-Nix rain cover-- get a pack liner. Hefty Trash COMPACTOR bag.

-- Take a look at my three-season Colorado Rockies gear list for an idea of what I take.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtPFXdtIdI3pdHdQRTlsdHdkUk1qNFJuRlRJLXNramc&hl=en

mine is very much like yours. some of the things like the cold steel knife yes its a big knife but you know what i can boton the hell out of wood with it, it's all about compromises and personal preferance. the last trip i went on in the colorado rockies, i actually took a machete (very heavy i know) and it actually turned out that it was the most used tool. now i realize a knife can do just a good job as chopping.

Your generic list is much like my real list now

Chopping what?

All I ever "chop" is salami, cheese and clean the occasional fish.

Most places don't permit fires, so chopping wood is unnecessary except at actual campsites; and even then, there is much "dead" wood to use.

Geeze, a machete-- that reminds me of my younger days when my father used to bring a long an axe for chopping fire wood [b][/b]

is there anything im forgetting?

[quote]is there anything im forgetting?/quote]

What you still have left out are the answers to the basic questions we asked, without which we really can't give you any useful information:

Where will you do most of your backpacking? Maine? Western Oregon? Florida? Wyoming? Eastern Texas? Another country? The gear needed for each of these will be quite different. I can't believe that you're planning to backpack every region of the US in the next year!

Will you be hiking solo or will there normally be others in your party? In other words, is some of your gear shared with others?

What weather conditions do you expect to encounter? Again, your gear list will be quite different depending on those conditions. There are no "generic" weather conditions that cover the entire USA.

What are the weights of your individual items? Again, without this information we really can't judge whether an item is suitable or to advise you that there are lighter items that are just as good.

You seem to be buying everything that you might possibly need for all possible conditions. That is going to result in first, an unnecessarily heavy pack, and second, wasting a lot of your money on gear that you very probably will never use! Plan for what you'll actually be doing close to home, in the next few months. Wait until you have gained experience to buy more. If you plan a once-in-a-lifetime trip to somewhere outside your home area, buy or rent whatever you will need for that specific trip at that time.

did you see the other guys post he has a 3 season gear list and it's basically the same as mine now. i don't know what your income is like but i for one cannot go out and buy new gear everytime i go out backpacking, that super impratical. i know a "generic" 3 season backpack can be made, i have compared mine to like 4 other sites and to that other guys post, and it seems to me that i have all the gear down with no useless gear. i realize that for each trip there are going to be a few items that would need to be dropped and a few items that might need to be added. but for the most part i am confident that i could take this pack out in any 3 season condition and be comfortable.

It seems to me for someone with "experience" you are asking too much about gear, particularly if you have already asked on three other forums! Make a detailed list on each trip you do, weigh everything, write down what you do not use each time. Repeat. Again, Again. Delete things that never get used. Try leaving something out on one trip - for example, leave home the bowl and eat directly out of the cook pot. Is this really that difficult? Hey, for short trips, forget cooking altogether and do trail food. Is this a horrible experience for you or OK? Experience will reveal your "generic list". Once you are happy with your gear, then as you have extra cash, gradually replace heavier gear with lighter. You can also learn a lot simply by going out with other people and observing their gear and how it performs. I think you lack confidence, not gear ideas.

everyone tried to help, by asking for further details. You did not provide any of those details, nor any specifics on the gear you were taking, so no advice could be given. If this vagueness on your parts means that other people are "assholes" you truly have a convoluted handle on reality.

You asked for help, but ignored the questions directed back to you, then complained that people aren't helpful...do you recognize the folly in this?

As a new member myself I have to completely disagree with you starcruzzer. You should have spent a little time reading other posts and articles from the site. Not only are they very helpful and could have answered many of your questions you would have seen how gear lists are critiqued. You posted in "light Gear Talk" yet did not have any wieghts...these guys and girls live for weights. When you say 'i have a tent' that could mean anything...the weights can vary by several POUNDS. Which in the light gear world is huge! Some people 'nix' toilet paper and cut the corners off their maps:)
You also never really answered any specifics that you could answer to help people give you a better idea of what you would need (e.g. Where you were camping and for how long). Instead your responses seemed (at least to me) very argumentative and somewhat condescending.
I have asked a couple questions here so far and everyone has been more than helpful! I plan on eventually putting up my gear list...but it will be after much more research and knowing that I will be taking my toilet paper with me (which I will be told to nix). I will leave the rocks and leaves to the more hardcore:)
PS Look at the the post by Will King a couple below this one "New to Forum - solo gear list" (or something like that). Read the responses...especially balzaccom's and then look at Will's response. That is how gear list posts typically work.