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#124910 - 12/08/09 12:19 PM rant about Black Diamond
bigwig Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 101
I owned, used extensively in all sorts of conditions, and then returned a Black Diamond Guiding Light [4 kids and two adults in that tent]. We loved that tent, except for the seam sealing, or lack thereof, on the floor of the tent. I understand that the Epic fabric on the top of the tent can't be seam sealed. There's no good reason that they can't seal the floor, however. And, the fabrics that they use and the way that they sew it together makes it very hard to seal at home. The fabric on the pole pockets is slick enough that it flakes off and has to be reapplied every 4 trips or so.

Anyway, I emailed them to ask if they were planning on seam sealing the tent floors in the future. This is how the conversation went:

Me -
Do you have any plans to start seam sealing the floor on the Guiding Light? I understand that you can't factory seal the Epic fabric on the top of the tent but you could do the floor and pole pockets.

Black Diamond -
Hi Justin, thanks for the email, unfortunately, the guiding light has actually been discontinued. We are coming out with a new fabric next spring called nano-shield that will be an improvement over the epic fabric, and the line will be super paired down (to like 4 tents). I believe the floors will still eb un-sealed though, and part of the reasoning is that to coat the whole floor and seam tape it would add a lot of weight to a super-light series. [I added the italics]

Me-
Weight that would have to be added to the tent anyway...only by an annoyed customer. Oh well, I guess I won't be buying another Black Diamond tent any time soon.

Black Diamond-
No problem, glad I could be of assistance.

So, Black Diamond's reason to not seam seal fabrics that can be seam sealed is to artificially lower the weight of their tents at the point of sale.

I actually don't mind seam sealing. It's usually not very hard. However, they are building tents where they leave a half of inch of fabric hanging out of the seam so that you have to seal both sides of every seam and make it so you have to seal the outside of the floor seam (which just collects sand - in dry silicon seam sealer), and they use fabrics that are sewn to silicone impregnated silicon, so that you have to use silicone seam sealer, which doesn't stick to the other fabrics well. When they are doing all of this, they are just building poor lightweight tents.

Really, are there any other big manufacturers that aren't seam sealing fabrics that can be factory seam sealed?


Edited by bigwig (12/08/09 12:25 PM)

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#124912 - 12/08/09 01:00 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: bigwig]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Yeah, that's interesting that you've got to seam seal a $469 to $629 (depending on the deal you got) tent right out of the box.

_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#124924 - 12/08/09 04:10 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: bigwig]
Tangohkr Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 57
Loc: Arizona
Thank you for the "review". I am in the hunt for a new tent and I won't be looking at Black Diamond, because for me customer service is at least as important as the product sold.
_________________________
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Helen Keller

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#124929 - 12/08/09 05:31 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Tangohkr]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
With both Epic and silnylon it isn't practical (cost effective...) to seam seal tents because it has to be done with the tent assembled and it takes up to 48 hours to dry. (visualise a tent run of 100 (US made) to 300-1000 (China made) tents all set up for a couple of days)
A way out with silnylon is to put a PU coating on the underside. Tape will stick to that. The problem with doing that is that at this point you will need to dry your tent because PU will attract mould. In the long term it will perish (see "sticky tent fly" threads)
Knowing this but still taking into account the advantages of silnylon over non impregnated versions, more manufacturers are using it. For example Macpac from NZ with the 2010 tent range. (yes, they are shipped with a tube of silicone)
Franco
BTW, I have been doing some experiments with wet tent fabric.
After several hours of steady rain a silnylon fly gained 25% in weight, a fully wetted out polyester ripstop 60% and a partially wetted out (shorter exposure) gained 31%.
With silnylon most of the extra weight was in the wetted out guylines and the rain drops that accumulated during the folding (all done in the rain).
Next time I will do Epic but knowing that it can completely wet out I wold expect a considerable difference between dry and wet storage.


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#124930 - 12/08/09 06:02 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Franco]
Kent W Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 607
Loc: IL.
Hmm, seems to me or seams to me. If you layout that kind of bucks for a tent it should be sealed? Most high end equipment buyers I think would expect it! If you have to go to the trouble of sealing a new tent yourself, you might as well build it yourself! That is exactlly what I am doing.
Happy Trails

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#124931 - 12/08/09 07:17 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Kent W]
Tangohkr Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 57
Loc: Arizona
At the very least the really tough areas should be done. Possibly when they put those tough pieces together, before the whole tent is assembled.

But what I take umbrage with is the dismissive attitude of the company rep. Very rude to say the least.
_________________________
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Helen Keller

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#124933 - 12/08/09 07:42 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Kent W]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
"Most high end equipment buyers I think would expect it! "

Maybe not. Most high end buyers understand the problems and limits of high end gear.
In fact with most things, the higher the standard the more maintenance is required. Ask anyone that has a Rolex , a Ferrari or a racing yacht...(the more expensive your spinnaker is , the more often you will need to replace it. People think that a $500 Cuben tent is expensive, yet Cuben spinnakers costing 100x that are replaced after a few races because they go out of shape or rip the first time in use)

But about tents, the high end Biblers, Integral Design,Stephensons,Lightwave (for example...) all need to be sealed.

But my point was simply to explain why that is so , not to justify it.
Franco

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#124941 - 12/08/09 08:40 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Franco]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
So am I the only one that is interested in finding out more about the Nano fabric? I wonder if it is the same used by Feathered Friends? Mmmmm.....

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#124944 - 12/08/09 08:54 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: bigwig]
Paul Offline
member

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 778
Loc: California
If the person you spoke to on the phone had made themselves clearer they would have been doing a better job. The silnylon fabric BD uses on their floors can't be seam sealed using tape like a PU coated fabric can (see Franco's post) So their two options are to use a coated fabric (which was what the person you talked to on the phone was trying and failing to get across, that they have to use a silnylon fabic that also has a coating of PU - making it heavier - before they can tape the seams)or to hand-seal the seams the same way you would do it at home. As has been pointed out, this is a deal-breaker for a big manufacturer. I think it's a reasonable choice for them to do it this way, but the guy on the phone did a poor job of explaining it.
So in other words, the weight he's talking about saving is not just the weight of the seam sealer like you would apply, but of the added coating on the fabric that would allow them to tape the seams. I have an MSR twin peaks made with silnylon fabric that has the added coating (and taped seams) and it weighs 4-5 ounces more than a Betalight (almost identical size and shape) that uses regular silnylon without the PU coating. so the weight differnce is meaningful.

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#124966 - 12/09/09 12:19 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Paul]
bigwig Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 101
The quotes above are copied and pasted emails sent back and forth.

I understand about the coating and seam sealing. However, I think that other large manufacturers are using the slightly heavier fabrics, sealing them, and producing tents that weigh as much or less. For instance, I bought a Copper Spur tent from Big Agnes. It has a higher space to weight ratio and is completely seam sealed. Several of the tent companies quoted above are small companies and I completely understand how they may lack the manufacturing capabilities of larger companies. If I bought one from Henry Shires or from Warmlite, or someone, I wouldn't expect that they seam seal the tents. However, I think that both of those companies at least make the seams on the tents easier to seal and use fabrics that can be sealed well, unlike Black Diamond.

Really, how much more would it make a Black Diamond tent weigh if they made the floor with the PU Coating and seam sealed it? Honestly, I don't know and I'm wondering.

I am willing to bet that it has little or nothing to do with the weight of the tent. How concerned about weight can they be when they leave almost an inch of excess fabric hanging out of the seams on all of the pole pockets? I think that, more than anything, they don't want to incur the additional cost. I understand that but I hope that, with that decision, they also incur less brand loyalty.


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#124973 - 12/09/09 03:00 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: bigwig]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
BigWig
My input here is not to argue with you nor to defend Black Diamond, it is simply because I have a keen interest in tent design and it is obvious that many feel the same as you do.
(mistakenly some had a go at me in a couple of other forums about this because they thought the "problem" was confined to Traptent and I was "defending" that brand)
I will try again..
For a small manufacturer it is possible to offer, as an option , to seam seal a non PU coated silnylon tent. The reason is very simple. If only a few customers ask for it the various cottage manufacturers (ie Ron,Henry and co) will themselves do it in their own spare time. So what they do is set up your tent, put a coat on, wait for 24-48 hours depending on the weather and pack your tent up .
Now if you had to pay someone else to do it, you may realise that $20-25 does not really cover the time and space that it takes.
Larger brands that have tents manufactured in China/Taiwan or Vietnam, have them made with a minimum run of about 300 at a time. As soon as that is done another model (not necessarily for the same brand) is in production.
Now , how do you think is possible to set up 300 tents , have them seam sealed by hand, let them rest for 2 days and then pack them pack them up for delivery ?
Production runs of 500-1000 tents are pretty common .
So it isn't as easy or cheap to do as some think.
Just before this I posted something about the new Macpac (NZ) 2010 tent line up. They too are now using silnylon and yes you need to seal them in spite of the $500 plus price range.
BTW, Bibler is owned by Black Diamond .
Of course using a fabric that can be seam taped in production is a way out but that reduce the choice of materials avaliable and each type of material has it's strengths and weaknesses.
One more thing. If you carefully read tent reviews you will find that there are many other shelters that owners had to seam seal because in spite of manufacturers claims they leaked.
Franco

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#124977 - 12/09/09 05:57 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: bigwig]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By bigwig
.....I think that, more than anything, they don't want to incur the additional cost. I understand that but I hope that, with that decision, they also incur less brand loyalty.



Hey, its pretty simple, don't buy tents that require seam sealing. No need to slag and wish misfortune on a company that requires the consumer to make an informed desicion as to whether they want to seam seal their products. Its not like you didn't know before you purchased the tent.

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#124978 - 12/09/09 06:47 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Franco]
bigwig Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 101
Franco,

You make some great points here. My wife read the chain and said that I probably came across as more argumentative than I meant to. I absolutely understand that they can't hand seam seal the tents. I appreciate you explaining all of this.

So, on the Guiding Light that I had purchased, I had to use almost three tubes of silicon seam sealer - about two tubes on the floor (and pole pockets) of the tent. How much weight, once those two tubes are added on to the weight of the tent, do you think I saved by having to do it myself as opposed to them using the coated and heavier fabric? I'm honestly asking; I have no clue. My guess would be, at most, a couple of ounces, if any.

The second part of my original complaint was just saying that they could have sewn the tent quite a bit differently to make seam sealing at home a lot easier. For instance, the pole pockets have two pieces of fabric hanging out of the seam. That means that you have to seal the right, middle, and left side of that seam - three separate beads of silicone for one seam. Or, flipping the seam along the bottom of the tent around so it can be sealed from the inside of the tent where the silicone will just keep my pad from sliding around as opposed to getting ground into and collecting sand.

I understand that you weren't defending them, I was just saying that it wasn't as simple as saying that they can't factory seal it.

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#124979 - 12/09/09 06:47 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: bigwig]
Paul Offline
member

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 778
Loc: California
I do not mean to be defending Bd's customer service reps or anything like that - I just think that their fabric choice is a reasonable one. No tent is perfect, and everybody has different features or design variations, including fabric choices, that appeal to them for the uses they put the tent to - which is good, since that gets us a variety of tents to choose from. The people at BD aren't saints or devils, they're just businesspeople, trying to make a buck like everybody else. Sure their choice is based on money in the end - they are making the choices they think will sell the most tents. If it costs more to make, they'll charge more for it - and maybe that will mean they sell less of them. Or mayboe not. Are they right or are they wrong? I don't know. I think they make it clear that those tents need to be seam-sealed, and as long as they do that it seems like a valid choice, as opposed to a basic quality issue.
As to weight, I did a little calculation:
First, I'm assuming that if they used a PU coating on their silnylon so they could tape it, they'd use a coating similar to what MSR uses on their fabrics. I have previously figured out pretty carefully the fabric area of my Twin Peaks (don't ask), and I know from research prior to buying it that it is very, very close in size and configuration to the BD betalight. Based on that info, the weight difference is just over .38 oz/sq yd, which would give a total difference of 2.5 oz for the coating - and some small additional amount for the tape.
To me that would be worth saving - I mean, I'd rather seal it myself and save a couple ounces and a few bucks. Now, some would say that they'd rather get the added water resistance of the PU coating, and the reduced slipperiness perhaps, and that might be worth the added weight to them, but I think that's a whole different discussion.
I guess what I'm really saying is that it seems harsh to rant on them for a valid design decision as if it was a deceptive practice. I think the two are very different, and deserve different treatment. That's all.

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#124981 - 12/09/09 07:00 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Rick]
bigwig Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 101
Originally Posted By Rick
Originally Posted By bigwig
.....I think that, more than anything, they don't want to incur the additional cost. I understand that but I hope that, with that decision, they also incur less brand loyalty.



Hey, its pretty simple, don't buy tents that require seam sealing. No need to slag and wish misfortune on a company that requires the consumer to make an informed desicion as to whether they want to seam seal their products. Its not like you didn't know before you purchased the tent.


I guess I feel that there is absolutely need to complain about poor products, and, even, the company that makes them. I would want to hear about it from other people, at least, before I buy a tent. As for the "it's not like you didn't know before you purchased the tent," I'm not exactly sure how I would have known that the tent seams would be sewn so poorly or that the fabric on the pole pockets that are sewn into the sil nylon floor won't take silicone seam sealer for long. These are all things that there's no way I would have known unless I heard about it from someone else or tried myself. I wish someone would have been specific in the reviews that I did read.

I think you took the whole "wishing misfortune on the company" thing a bit far. It's just a fact of marketing that dissatisfied customers talk to other people about their bad experiences. Complaining, boycotting, and encouraging others to not buy a particular product is the only thing that will encourage companies to make changes in their products and is a fundamental part of capitalism. Companies have to make cost/ benefit analysis all the time. The reason that my Toyota doesn't come with a full lifetime satisfaction guarantee is because it would be too expensive. They made the decision to make the tent the way that they did because they apparently feel that it is too expensive to do otherwise. They have to understand that they will lose customers by making that decision.

Anyway, good discussion.

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#124982 - 12/09/09 07:22 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Paul]
bigwig Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 101
Originally Posted By Paul

As to weight, I did a little calculation:
First, I'm assuming that if they used a PU coating on their silnylon so they could tape it, they'd use a coating similar to what MSR uses on their fabrics. I have previously figured out pretty carefully the fabric area of my Twin Peaks (don't ask), and I know from research prior to buying it that it is very, very close in size and configuration to the BD betalight. Based on that info, the weight difference is just over .38 oz/sq yd, which would give a total difference of 2.5 oz for the coating - and some small additional amount for the tape.
To me that would be worth saving - I mean, I'd rather seal it myself and save a couple ounces and a few bucks.


Thanks for figuring this out! My only response would be to say that don't you think that that 2.5 ounces will easily be added back by the seam sealer that you're putting on it? Keep in mind that some of the seams need three separate beads on them. Also, the snaps in the corner of the pole pockets that the poles rest in need a very large amount of seam sealer since the hole in the snap goes all the way through (the instructions say to fill them full of the seam sealer). I guess I think that the tent would actually be lighter if they used the heavier fabric and factory seam sealed it.


Originally Posted By Paul
I guess what I'm really saying is that it seems harsh to rant on them for a valid design decision as if it was a deceptive practice. I think the two are very different, and deserve different treatment. That's all.


No where did I say that it's a deceptive practice. And, yes, I think it's a valid design decision to use the lighter fabric, just as it is to sew the tent together cheaply or use fabrics that don't take the provided seam sealer well. I also think that it's valid to complain about it. I'm one of the people, as are many others, that they lose when they make a decision like this.

Originally Posted By Paul
Are they right or are they wrong? I don't know.


I guess I would say that, for me, they were wrong.

Originally Posted By Paul
I think they make it clear that those tents need to be seam-sealed, and as long as they do that it seems like a valid choice, as opposed to a basic quality issue.


I can see this point. I do, however, think that there are quality issues that I've specified. I also think that if you seam sealed and then used a Guiding Light as much as I have you would more than likely feel the same way. I've seam sealed dozens of tents in my life and I can honestly say that this was the worst.

Originally Posted By Paul
they're just businesspeople, trying to make a buck like everybody else


Absolutely. I'm also just a backpacker that doesn't have unlimited resources and wants more for the $600 that I paid.

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#124983 - 12/09/09 07:27 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: bigwig]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Seems (no pun intended) that someone should design a tent floor that has no seams. Clothing seams are now often "welded". Why cannot that also be done in a tent floor? I hate sealing seams. What appears simple to some may be difficult for others. How about stores that sell tents REI etc either offer group classes where you bring down your tent and have your work overlooked by an expert or offer sealing services.

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#124988 - 12/09/09 10:04 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: bigwig]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
Bigwig
I did not mean that you sounded argumentative, the comment was about my post...
(that because of my previous bad experiences on two other forums with the same explanation)
Having been in retail for 30 years ( I happen to be a consumer too...) I know that a bad experience for whatever reason does leave a sour taste, but eventually we get over.
As far as seam sealing , I am the worst guy to ask about because I am one of two people on this planet that actually enjoys doing it. Could be because I am playing with a new toy or more likely because I have an excuse to inhale some fumes from the mineral spirits I dilute my silicone with. (I have done some shelters for others but only to get the opportunity to play with a different tent)
Unfortunately I also do all of the seams inside and outside twice (no kidding) and the guyout points 3 or four times.
So I never talk about the weight of my shelters after I finish with them...
(I have a Bibler as well as a BD tent)
Franco
BTW, I have seen a GuidingLight but am not familiar enough with it to comment on how it is put toghether.
If it makes you feel any better there is another brand that uses silnylon and Epic and claim you do not need to seal them, trouble is if you experience real rain, you do...

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#124990 - 12/09/09 11:12 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Franco]
Howie Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 481
Loc: Canora, SK, Canada
It is funny. I always imagined Australia as a place that gets very little rain. No need to seam seal down there smile

Howie

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#124993 - 12/10/09 03:35 AM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Howie]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
We have had a long draught (but with huge floods in the North) for 5 years, however we have had here in Melbourne the wettest November for several years.
Often it is strong sustained rain and then nothing for weeks.
Tasmania is a different situation . Very wet on one side , very dry on the other.
At the moment it is about 55f here in Melbourne,82f in Broome , WA (where my wife is) and 46 in Hobart (Tasmania)
Large areas in Queensland get over 10' annual rainfall.
Continental Australia is about 25% smaller than the USA.
Franco

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#125055 - 12/11/09 08:00 PM Re: rant about Black Diamond [Re: Franco]
Howie Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 481
Loc: Canora, SK, Canada
Thanks for the info Franco. Where I live we get about 11'' of rain in a year. It is nice, but when it does rain, look out. I have never seen heavy rain like here in Kamloops. It can come down ever so hard, but then it is dry as a bone an hour later. So far this winter we haven't had any snow to speak of, but that is about to change.

Howie

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