Just got in from trail work in my park. At the front trail head, a blue pickup, with a small lady driver and 4 HUGE DOGS (2 large pit bulls and 2 mix breed pointer dogs)pulled into the parking lot. The dogs immediately started barking at me from the truck bed. The driver saw me, and whipped around in the parking lot....and glares at me. We're 150 feet apart and she yells "are you going to be hiking around here"? I say "yes", and she angrily yells back "well then I can't...i was going to run my dogs and now i can't", and speeds away.
What the heck was she going to do when her dogs came up on the family with 2 little kids further down the trail? These were NOT friendly dogs. Dogs (and their owners) are the only animals I've EVER had a problem with. My coyotes even know to be polite.

I have never had a problem with a dog, just ownwers

Sheesh, what an attitude. Was she wearing a Mike Vick tshirt?

I guess she should have saved some of that kibble money for some acreage.

Woof,

I love dogs. The owners are problematic though. I really hate it when people think they can ignore things like leash laws.

I have no problem with well behaved owners and well behaved dogs on the trail though.

I normaly only hike in wilderness areas simply because you can have your dog off leash, its safer and alot of fun for my dog to be able to scout ahead and scout behind. There are fewer people in those areas and a well socialized dog is normaly a joy for people to see on the trail.

His tags jingle, so as he does approach people they will know its a domesticated animal, he came across hunters one time which even though they aren't suppose to hunt near trails, well you know what I mean.

I hike with a guy who trains and certifies SAR dogs. I find it spookily amazing when one of his dogs is with us. These are the most well behaved, totally confident, un-rattle-able dogs I've ever seen. They literally ignore you and other dogs unless told to do otherwise.
However, since 1993 (when my backyard became a nature preserve), I've been attacked three times by big loose dogs, bitten once. There is such a cross section of dog owners that use preserves for their dogs, that I simply don't trust any of them, and my dog trainer friend agrees. His dog was attacked by a pit bull terrier, in my park! He now carries a pistol in case it happens again.
I go armed as well, when doing trail work. Our animal control officer recommended I do, since that's what he does.

Dryer, are loose dogs allowed in your park? I would surprised if they were. I know a few places around LA where you can have dogs off leash, but in actual parks, I think that is totally prohibited.

I'm not a big fan of guns in parks, but for park rangers and other park personnel, I can understand why they would carry one if allowed.

Not all wilderness areas allow loose dogs! There are a number that require leashes. There are others that require leashes or strict voice control. Does your dog always come back to your side when you call him? Can you stop him from chasing large or small game?

Even the sweetest dog can become overprotective or turn into a fear biter when in unfamiliar places. Then there's the classic bear scenario--dog barks at bear, bear gets mad and chases dog, dog runs to owner for protection. Finally, here in the Columbia River Gorge we have several dogs falling off cliffs each year because the owners don't leash them and the dogs get too close to the edge.

The only times my dog is off-leash are when he's following behind me on the trail (when he goes in front he keeps stopping suddenly to sniff--one time I barely missed falling on him with full pack) or when I can see far enough in all directions to know that there are no wild animals or other hikers or horse parties just around the corner. And, of course, only when it's legal for him to be off-leash.

I've been in several hazardous scenarios when my dog is on leash and we meet someone with an off-leash dog.

Sometimes the small dogs are worse than the big ones--they are a lot noisier and seem more apt to bite!

Dogs are more aggressive when on leash, thats why I try not to use a leash whenever possible. I regularly walk my dog without a leash when it is allowed.
When we saw a bear my dog barked and never left my side and looked to me for guidance, the bear walked back in the woods, My dog is a dutch sheperd which hasn't been destroyed by american breeders as of yet.
I trained police K9 and personnel protection dogs for a few years and have more opinions then I know what to do with, but I get much joy out of watching my dog run free in the widerness, but he enoys it even more, it doesn't really bother me if he chases a deer out of our camp or disapears for a few minutes in the woods, he's a dog and is alot more in tune with whats going on in the woods then I am.

I do always keep him on leash where horses are allowed regardless of laws.

Dryer, are loose dogs allowed in your park?

As if this would make a groat's worth of difference to a bad dog owner. The worst ones have absolutely no respect for any rules of any kind that apply to their dogs. All they care about is whatever they want.

I specifically mention "the worst", because most dog owners, like most people in general, are not yahoos.

Not all wilderness's allow this. Out here quite a bit of one wilderness requires dogs on leashes and in one whole area dogs are banned.

Each wilderness is governed by the NF in charge, so what is allowed in one, is not always in the next.

No, they aren't. There is a big green county sign at all trail heads with a bucket load of rules in small print. This lady wasn't interested in 'rules', as most abusers aren't. She wanted the entire park to herself and her 4 monster dogs.
Today, I picked up a dozen beer cans/bottles and 2 empty 'dime bags' that held crack or other drug, all forbidden. Working a park is a constant human study.
The problem with more than one dog is "pack behavior". The nicest dogs change in a pack. I really didn't want to tangle with 400 lbs. of dog.

And while certain dogs are well mannered and a joy to be around, let me be the first to say this:
Jingling of a dogs collar does nothing to appease me! Rather it sets me on edge

My son has a fear of unleashed dogs that we have not been able to get him better on and we have worked on this for nearly 12 years! Every year it is back to square 1, all it takes is one dog, off leash jumping on him or not backing off.

On a Momma and kids hike we had two toddlers walking along between us adults and had an unleashed dog come barreling down the trail, the dog careened into both toddlers, knocking them down. The dog nearly ran into another mother who had her tiny infant in a front carrier.

Very uncool.

I have had multiple unleashed dogs come around corners running into me, seen dogs knocking rocks off summits above trails, watched alpine meadows trampled and seen too many signs at TH's where a dog saw an animal and bolted and never came back. Did I mention I hate eating lunch and having a dog wander over and try to eat my food? Knocking over gear, walking into a stove? It isn't funny, cute or adorable. Let it be said I had a dog steal a banana peel from the top of my backpack this year. Freaking dog ate it!

I have encountered at least 2 dozen unleashed dogs in the backcountry at Mt. Rainier NP over the years. People ignore the ban of dogs in NP's and in NF's where dogs are banned.

I take the time to compliment responsible owners who leash their pooches. Nearly always those dogs are mellow. They sit and are obedient.

I carry pepper spray at all times in my pack's hipbelt pocket, no matter where I am. It is for dogs. Your dog jumps or slams into my kid, your dog WILL get sprayed!

bigb

I was charged by an off leash German Shepard in a wilderness area. Fortunately dogs are smart enough to know when they're staring down the barrel of a .44 and he sort of froze (while I spoke very softly to him) until his stupid little girl owner came along and called him off - I will say she apologized as I explained how close her dog came to dying.
Jim

I always hike with my best friend, Sherpa (street name: Bennie). I have never had a problem with him, but other dogs and their owners are another story. I rarely put Sherpa on a leash unless needed, he follows behind quietly with a smile on his face, happy to be "working" (he carries a pack of his own). Sherpa's a very even tempered and mellow pooch, just ask JimShaw, he knows Sherpa. By the way, Jim, he says you owe him a bone from that hike in the Dunes last year Better pay up.

Sherpa is getting older and tires more quickly, so when we get to camp, after he marks his territory, he normally just collapses in a heap. Dogs are like people... some good, some bad tempered. I think it all boils down to the owners and their attitudes and how the dog was raised.

BF

Oh sure.. *Sherpa* is like this..

BF2 also has this friend who is getting old and may do this, too, I hear.

Lucky for me what most of you think really doesn't matter. Like I said, dogs are more in tune with whats going on in the woods, at least mine definitely knows more about the surroundings than I do, of course I'm not that bright.

I haven't seen any toddlers recently 5 or 10 miles deep in a wilderness area, but i'll let you know if I do. If a dog steals your trash and eats it he's just leaving no trace, sounds like a great dog.

Did you mean the dog was smart enough to figure out you are a paranoid human which probably wasn't going to pet him anyway, since dogs aren't hunted I don't believe he stopped for a pistol or any other gun.

Lucky for me what most of you think really doesn't matter.

This sounds like a classic case of knowing whose ox is being gored. Your dog may be all kinds of wonderful: calm, wise, perfectly poised and always self-controlled. Good for him!

But it is unwise to dismiss what other people think as being irrelevant. Their experience is not yours and it is just as valid as yours. If Jimshaw felt the need to draw a gun on a charging dog, it is because he was was there, could evaluate the threat and the actions needed to neutralize it.

Your imagining that the dog involved was merely looking to be petted and that Jim was "paranoid" is based on... nothing remotely connected to what really happened. You made it up.

This process of rationalization is common enough and we all do it. What is much harder to do is to see it in ourselves, instead of in others, because it is never very pretty.

On the other hand, if you accepted his experience as valid, it would actually make it easier to believe in your good judgement about this issue and easier to accept that you know what you are doing. That is, if you cared what anyone thinks beside yourself.

Pit bulls... huge dogs?

IMO, there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. But that cliched platitude doesn't help much and I don't think there's much that can be done. Insist that your Animal Control enforce whatever leash laws exist in your area.

FB

I plan on taking mine to the park tomorrow -- Minute Maid Park. For the first time the Astros are having dog day at the baseball game.

I have never felt the need to pull a gun on a dog although I have been tempted to shoot a few owners.

A person hiking has no idea what a paragon of virtue another persons dog is when that dog comes running up to them. Sure, the pooch may be friendly but it really is not the non-owner's responsibility to figure that out.

I have encountered everything from Cairn Terriers to Great Danes on the trail. Mostly the dogs I encounter are friendly; on or off leash. But, I have also encountered many threatening dogs whose owners just stood there with the breeze blowing in one ear and out the other and said "no Fluffy" repeatedly while I was at pucker factor 9 and gaining.

Dogs are great; I have one now and I have had dogs for 30 years. They have all been generally well but not predictably behaved. For that reason, I don't take my dog with me on the trail. I don't think I should inflict my dog on others. Moreover, I resent the heck out of those who do not return the favor. Well behaved dogs are great; ill mannered dogs and their equally ill mannered owners are a plague on society.

Unfortunately, the ill mannered owners are constitutionally unable to see their character flaws. Sadly, the rest of us have no idea what is going to happen if an uncontrolled dog comes after us. Perhaps Jimshaw overreacted but more likely his response was perfectly reasonable.

Interesting responses everyone, but I guess the point is...the lady had 4 big dogs, not one or two. I run into dogs on the trail all the time, and, the lost ones seem to find my house.
There is one lady that hikes here every evening with two loose, little yappy black dogs, that always seem to find me and go strait for my shins...after whacking one with a trekking pole, they keep their distance. She still lets the dogs run loose, even after I asked her to leash them....nope, her babies come first and animal control officers don't work at night.
I have no idea how to hold off 4 dogs (yes, pit bulls can be stocky big dogs and they do kill people) and shouldn't have to. Asking my animal control officer to "enforce the leash laws" is like asking cops to stop speeders and drunks. This thread won't stop people from being selfish idiots with their animals. So, I protect my self the most effective way I know....the same way the animal control officers do.

My dog and I just got back from running down toddlers, stealing picnic baskets and dodging bullets.

I guess I'm the only one that reads entire post. I normally walk my dog without leash when allowed, that means its legal, and deemed appropriate by the powers that be.

I can only hope that the people who I was responding to on my last post have a better appreciation for sarcasism than anyone who is responding on there behalf.

What people think is irrelevant when it really doesn't have anything to do with the statements I made, or typed.

I like and joined this forum for what I saw as common sense respones to many questions on many subjects after being a visitor for years, but respones addressed to me about pulling guns on dogs and respones about toddlers at parks where there are probably thousands of visitors a day which my post clearly say I'm in areas with very few people were a bit over the top and irrelevant, so I responded in the same manner and am a bit dissapointed with where this whole thing went.

The topic of dogs on trails and in other public areas is a hot-button topic; almost as hot as the topic of guns and backpacking. So far, I think, that the responses to your posts have been pretty reasonable given the nature of the subject. You, however, seem determined to toss gasoline on the fire. Comments such as:

are neither helpful nor funny.

You may be a dog expert, I have no way of knowing. But, for a lot of us non-experts, being confronted with even the mildest of dogs running loose in public spaces is cause for legitimate concern. If you cannot appreciate this concern, it is a bit sad to say the very least.

And finally:

Sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish between sarcasm and plain hardheadedness, especially in print.

I am sad and hardheaded, but "My dog and I just got back from running down toddlers, stealing picnic baskets and dodging bullets." is very funny

I am a responsible dog owner, none of my post said anything to contrary, since the respones were directed to me I reserve the right to toss gasoline.

This topic is dogs runnig loose where it is not permitted, that is why my original post blamed owners not dogs, dogs can't read so somebody, probably their owner, would have to direct them to these areas.

I do enjoy going the wrong way on a one way street but I must be on the wrong street altogether and will take my leave.

bigb:



Okay . . .

but I just read the thread in its entirety tonight -- started by Dyer by the way, not you -- and never really saw any mob running at you down the street in the opposite direction you've taken. Some disagreement, but that's about it.

Jumping into a forum doesn't require much -- a thick skin and that's about it.

This one is about ultralight hiking, not really dogs, but at times dogs come up as they relate to being on a trail. When I think of all the posts I've read here over the years that relate to dogs, almost all from dog owners . . . it must be in the hundreds.

A couple years ago I took the position in an original post that the hikers in front of me with a dog might have been what lured a grizzly onto the trail (and within 20 feet of my wife) in Kootenay Nat'l Park. Not exactly a dog-owner's perspective, BTW. Many responded that my assumption was a crock. I didn't take my leave but hung in there and learned something. I do hope you continue to contribute to this ultralight backcountry hiking forum; your opinions are worth reading.

bigb

I'm not certain how much you know about dogs. I happen to be a "dog person" with a feel for dogs and they are all about body language. When a 100 pound plus dog barks at you in a certain way and comes at you not in an open gate, but in a low attack mode, you are actually under attack. Since I am a dog person I froze, drew my gun, talked quietly to the dog and strongly suggested that he stay 9-10 feet away from me or he would die. This isn't the first time BTW. I was attacked by a BIG feral dog in Alaska but when it saw the look in my eye and the barrel of a rifle pointed at it, it ran the other way. Dogs are very sensitive to peoples body language and frankly I stand a bit straighter when I'm behind my .44.

I am proud to say that I haven't killed a dog yet, though I have had at-least 6 in my sights and my finger in squeeze mode.

All that said. I take my dog up the road into the national forest and go down a dirt road until I find a spot a couple miles in, then I let my dog out of the car. I can see/hear bikes and other vehicles quite a bit better than she can and if anyone is coming up the road I hold her by the collar. I accept full responsibility for her when off leash and I don't let her get out of my sight as this is lion country and letting my dog have her head in lion country could get her killed.

Peace. I know yer just sh******g us mostly.

So anyway back to the subject, yes I think people who consider their dog to be a personal weapons system are sort of carrying a concealed weapon with an uncontrolled dog.

Further, there are very dangerous dogs, mostly those trained for defense purposes, and they also are not bad either, just showing a phase of dog that is sort of shunned in a polite society. I live in Bend Oregon where we have more dogs that people and I can pet any dog on the street without fear of being bit. Deschutes county would put down any dog that bit or threatened someone. Its the law. Pet owners here have very disciplined animals.

This thread was about undisciplined dogs and owners who don't consider how much of a threat there sweet little dogs are. My neighbors sweat little pit bull bit me through the fence one day while she and I were having a polite talk.

Unless you are a hunter with a legitimate reason to have trained hunting dogs ranging off leash, you should never let a dog run loose. While not especially friendly, hunting dogs leave people alone as they are after game.

Soap box off.
Jim

I only questioned your post cause you addressed your response to me about pulling guns on dogs, it was a bit confusing, I have worn a decoy suit no less than 100 times and have taken hundreds of bites and probably have a higher tolerance for crazy dogs then most.

Its really been a bit confusing, thanks for the encouragement kevon but the point of my metaphor was there was no mob, I was on a different street, which brings me back to my point do people really read a post through.

In areas where dogs are allowed off leash you may come upon one, it may steal your lunch, steal your gun or lick your face all of which is an owners responsibility.

My dog was attacked by two overgrown yellow labs about 5 miles into a wilderness area, and if I wasn't worried so much about my dog, I think watching the owner trying to gain control of his overbread pet quality dogs would have been priceless, what a moron, and when I asked him where they would be staying overnight (so not to be near them) his girlfriend didn't want to share that secret. My dog was bleeding but ok, a bit shaken.

Some of it is tolerance, I had a horse try to bite me while i was making room for them to pass, you just never know.

I spend alot of time training my dogs, if I had a dog that wouldn't come to me I would borrow jim's .44 and shoot him, as the good old boys say "Dog will Hunt!!"

Like with any other tolerable law breaking something really bad has to happen before something is done and there is still a big ? on what to do, and peoples view on exactly how bad something is involving domesticated animals variess greatly as seen just on this thread.

peace

That reminds me of a link :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtXHCxxdjo0&feature=related

BF

I find myself in agreement with bigb. Where I hike is a lot of dead fall. Trying to negotiate fallen trees with a leashed dog is a pain. Therefore off leash works best in some of these areas. I rarely meet up with other people anyway. I am concerned about cliffs though. Hiking is a bit of a learning curve for me and my dog and I try to use common sense. Recently I came across a sign that read “Caution cougar in the area, be aware”. Maybe I shouldn’t have even gone there? I had visions of some cougar eating my puppy for lunch. Hiking can be a hazardous sport for sure.


Howie

Howie

My dog stepped into a swift mountain stream, but I was able to grab her by the skin of her neck and haul her out - otherwise no more dog. Now when I go that area, or when I'm around cliffs, I put a harness on her that goes around her chest and around her neck with a solid ring in the middle above her shoulder. With a stout leash, I could haul her up an overhang or out of a stream without choking her, or even worse, having her collar pull off. Funny thing is - shes a rescue dog and you never know what their history is - when I put the harness on her she absolutely obeys commands and even - gasp - heals!!!!
Jim

I have crossed butt deep swift moving creeks with my 60lb dog on my shoulder, very intense moments, herding dog yes, water dog no

Where did she get her MD? Or is she a spiritual healer?



I believe you mean she HEELS...

I was near the end of a hike this spring when I saw two pit-bulls coming up the trail. This is an area that requires dogs to be on leash. They acted very aggressive and I stepped off the trail and picked up a short stick to use as a club and continued down the trail. They turned and ran back to their owner. When he came up he chuckled and said "I hope my dogs did not scare you!" I said "If you do not want to scare people then do not let your pit-bulls run loose!"

Him: "They are friendly and would not hurt anyone."

Me: "Yes, but I was preparing to hurt them."

I turned and walked away, but he seems disappointed that I was worried about hurting his dogs rather and vice versa.

bigb,

Wilderness areas (with capital W)in Colorado require dogs to be on leashes. Forest Service land does not.

However it is not safe to let your dog off leash in the backcountry.

Good call!

Ok, I'm wrong and everybody else is right, I feel so much better to have that off my chest!

bigb,

Stay with me as I wander a bit. There is a personal injury attorney in the buidling where my business is located. He has been a friend and client for 20+ years. He is generous, funny and has a terrific family. He scored in the 95% percentile on the LSAT. I know that because his brother is also an attorney and he wanted me to know he is smarter. Those of us in the testosterone brotherhood know you never outgrow being competitive. I was at the office the evening of Labor Day and noticed his car in the parking lot when I left at about 8:00 pm. I left a note on his winshield that said "I would wish you good luck for the trial, but with your focus and preparation I believe your opponent needs the good luck."

OK, I hope your are still with me. There will be two outcomes if your dog bites me while off leash.

1. Your dog WILL be put down.

2. You will buy my friend a new black Lexus RX300 to park next to his white one.

Let your dog run off leash if you can accept those outcomes.

Food:
You are NOT allowed to pet my dog Sherpa on next weeks hike. Come to think of it, stay away from Phat while he is eating, too

BF

I bow in humility, what was I thinking. You should write for a news paper, mass media or something, there probably would be no more dog bites ever.

I'm not sure why I trained my dog at all, I should keep him confined or restrained at all times.

Thank you for setting me straight, my dog thanks you as well

I don't bite.. Unless you're pretty..

phat,

You would be considered the "pretty" one if we were cellmates.

Merciful heavens, that is a chilling thought!

I just don't buy the "No bad dogs" theory. I've got one. His name is Tucker. He's not mean or vicious, but he can get out of control, especially if a stranger gets near his food.

I feed him in the barn now, all by himself, and he growls the entire time we're in there at anything that makes a sound outside. I am about the only one he won't growl or nip at and that's only because I've pinned him down by the throat when he was still a pup and tried to attack me.

I don't believe anyone could change this behavior in this dog. He is an "Alpha Male" and would fight to the death for food or females.

I've seen him try and pull several of my neighbors male dogs, that were running loose, through the fence around the barnyard. I've seen him forsake food for over a week because there was a female in heat nearby.

I love this old aussie shepherd, and I take him bushwhacking with me on our property and the public land that borders it, but that's because I know that no one is ever back there. But I put him back in the fence when it's time for me to cook dinner on the fire pit I have back there. There's just no way to stop him from trying to get at the food.

And chase cars? He can't help himself. He has to do it. I drove him to the vets' once to get shots and he was barking and spinning like the Tasmanian Devil in the back of my Suzuki Samurai trying to chase every car that passed us in either direction. After that I tied a cloth sack over his head when we went to the vets' office so he couldn't see them. Now the vet comes to our place.

I've lived with a lot of dogs over the years, some great, many good, and Tucker... the dog you can't take anywhere.

Bill

I walk with a dog too!!! A big dog....200lbs and wears 34" collar too. The thing is that if you are going to take a dog that size around other people, you have to make sure that they are very very disciplined. If not, what do you do when they get out of control? I assure if J.D.(my dog) got out of hand there would probably be a lot of people running for their lives and that's just not right. I always walk with my dog on a leash, but he is disciplined enough to where that is not really necessary,but I can not afford to take any chances that some one might get hurt,so I just don't take any chances...period. So, with that being said, I just do not think that you shold take your dog if they can not be disciplined around other people...sabre11004...

BF2,

I like dogs and enjoy being around them. I am not so sure about phat.

In Colorado if you receive medical treatment there is an automatic referral to animal control. The majority of animals involved in incidents are put down. There are some limited "make my day" exceptions for junk yard dogs, but the reality is that a biting dog is a dead dog, just like a fed bear is a dead bear.

Talk to your local animal control officer. They will assure you there are 'bad' dogs that no amount of training can help. (like phat....imagine 4 phats, off leash...lord help us.)
Again, this tread was about multi-big-off leash dogs and owners who clearly indicate they are the only ones entitled to the planet. So far, no responders to this thread would be considered that type of person.

Bad dogs....my next door neighbor has a large, mean looking pit-bull (i don't understand the the popularity of those dogs) who cowers at the sight of my little fearless kitty. It's just a big goofy dog that 'looks' mean. The same neighbor just gave away two other pits because they were "bad" dogs and couldn't be trusted. These dogs would try to crash through the wood fence and 'get' anybody walking by.

This guy has a toddler and one on the way. He NEVER hikes my park with the dog unleashed, goofy dog or not, because the signs say to, and doesn't want to lose the dog in the forest.

To lighten this thread up a bit, here's an absolutely vicious, unleashed dog we encountered on a hike to the summit of Mt. Sherman yesterday (9/8):



Shouldn't somebody be giving this dog CPR?

No, he's not dead, just taking a power nap on the way back from the summit, according to the owner (in center.)

We met the two hikers on the left on our way up, and that's my hiking buddy JJ in my old Kelty Shadow on the right.

And it seems that whenever those dumb humans stop to gab, this lab takes advantage of the moment to catch a few zzzz's.

We encountered about 16 hikers and five dogs on the way to the top of this 14er. ALL the people and their dogs were really nice.

Perhaps that's a missing point in this thread that has been stated on the forum many times:

Just as we encounter fewer jerks the further we hike in from the trailhead or the more difficult the hike, so we encounter fewer jerks with bad dogs.

I've got a few more pix of this hike in trail reports.

Yep, it seems the people and dogs get nicer the farther you are from the tralhead.

5 pages and a couple days.

An emotional issue, obviously!

I often take a 2-3 mile walk in a local state park. Dogs are allowed, but must be leashed. Also, owners must pack out any mess they make.

I often see dogs running leashless. Runners do this a lot - I guess they don't want the dog messing up their rhythm. So far I've only encountered friendly dogs. After reading some of the previous posts, however, I feel like maybe I should start carrying around pepper spray!

As much as I hate leashless dogs, what really burns me up is finding doggy poo smack dab in the middle of the trail.

I used some on Tucker once when he was pulling a neighbors dog through the barnyard fence. Neither dog seem to notice it and I sprayed them right on their muzzles.

My pepper spray wasn't backpack quality though, it was purchased at an auto parts store and it was old.

Bill

Animal control officers (they are now part of the police dept.) around here don't carry pepper spray anymore. They say it doesn't work on dogs. Ours carry cattle prod taser things and pistols. They use tranq darts if they have a distance and time advantage.

I heard *somewhere* and I'll be danged if I can find the reference right now, that capiscum (the hot stuff in peppers, and pepper spray) was mainly "hot" to some herbivores and omnivores. Things that tended to be closer to pure carnivore *tended* to not be sensitive or as sensitive to it, as the peppers evolved the stuff for dealing with herbivores. Might explain the lack of effectiveness on dogs, while being effective on people and grizzlies

I'm trying to find a reference to this as opposed to something I remember, and can't at the moment, so take it with a grain of salt.

I don't know about pepper spray but have known a number of dogs who did not evn notice is food was heavily spiced with hot pepper.

I think you mean "take it with a grain of pepper"
(salt and pepper. git it?)
nyuk nyuk nyuk

I am a letter carrier. Over a few years now I have sprayed dogs maybe 100 times. It has never once failed to immediately stop viscous attacks. We only use Halt brand and the same exact canisters are sold at bicycle shops. But think out another strategy for windy conditions. Mine was run for the truck!

A letter carrier gave me a can of Halt once but I never used it. I wonder if it has something besides pepper in it?

When I used to do lots of bike miles, simply raising my pump in the air, like I was going to strike...stopped all dogs. Except the one Sheppard that drug my friend off his bike, causing him to break his hip, and get bit....and the owner was worried about the dog, not the rider!