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#120359 - 09/05/09 02:54 PM Big Dogs and their weird owners.....
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Just got in from trail work in my park. At the front trail head, a blue pickup, with a small lady driver and 4 HUGE DOGS (2 large pit bulls and 2 mix breed pointer dogs)pulled into the parking lot. The dogs immediately started barking at me from the truck bed. The driver saw me, and whipped around in the parking lot....and glares at me. We're 150 feet apart and she yells "are you going to be hiking around here"? I say "yes", and she angrily yells back "well then I can't...i was going to run my dogs and now i can't", and speeds away.
What the heck was she going to do when her dogs came up on the family with 2 little kids further down the trail? These were NOT friendly dogs. Dogs (and their owners) are the only animals I've EVER had a problem with. My coyotes even know to be polite. confused
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#120362 - 09/05/09 03:54 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Dryer]
bigb Offline
member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 124
Loc: Maryland
I have never had a problem with a dog, just ownwers
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"In the beginers mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few."
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#120366 - 09/05/09 04:27 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Dryer]
Rick_D Online   content
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2912
Loc: NorCal
Sheesh, what an attitude. Was she wearing a Mike Vick tshirt?

I guess she should have saved some of that kibble money for some acreage.

Woof,
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#120368 - 09/05/09 05:00 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Dryer]
Echterling Offline
member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 52
Loc: USA
I love dogs. The owners are problematic though. I really hate it when people think they can ignore things like leash laws.

I have no problem with well behaved owners and well behaved dogs on the trail though.

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#120371 - 09/05/09 05:56 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Echterling]
bigb Offline
member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 124
Loc: Maryland
I normaly only hike in wilderness areas simply because you can have your dog off leash, its safer and alot of fun for my dog to be able to scout ahead and scout behind. There are fewer people in those areas and a well socialized dog is normaly a joy for people to see on the trail.

His tags jingle, so as he does approach people they will know its a domesticated animal, he came across hunters one time which even though they aren't suppose to hunt near trails, well you know what I mean.
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"In the beginers mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few."
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#120375 - 09/05/09 08:10 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Echterling]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
I hike with a guy who trains and certifies SAR dogs. I find it spookily amazing when one of his dogs is with us. These are the most well behaved, totally confident, un-rattle-able dogs I've ever seen. They literally ignore you and other dogs unless told to do otherwise.
However, since 1993 (when my backyard became a nature preserve), I've been attacked three times by big loose dogs, bitten once. There is such a cross section of dog owners that use preserves for their dogs, that I simply don't trust any of them, and my dog trainer friend agrees. His dog was attacked by a pit bull terrier, in my park! He now carries a pistol in case it happens again.
I go armed as well, when doing trail work. Our animal control officer recommended I do, since that's what he does.
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#120377 - 09/05/09 08:42 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Dryer]
TomD Offline
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Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Dryer, are loose dogs allowed in your park? I would surprised if they were. I know a few places around LA where you can have dogs off leash, but in actual parks, I think that is totally prohibited.

I'm not a big fan of guns in parks, but for park rangers and other park personnel, I can understand why they would carry one if allowed.
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#120378 - 09/05/09 08:44 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: bigb]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6738
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Not all wilderness areas allow loose dogs! There are a number that require leashes. There are others that require leashes or strict voice control. Does your dog always come back to your side when you call him? Can you stop him from chasing large or small game?

Even the sweetest dog can become overprotective or turn into a fear biter when in unfamiliar places. Then there's the classic bear scenario--dog barks at bear, bear gets mad and chases dog, dog runs to owner for protection. Finally, here in the Columbia River Gorge we have several dogs falling off cliffs each year because the owners don't leash them and the dogs get too close to the edge.

The only times my dog is off-leash are when he's following behind me on the trail (when he goes in front he keeps stopping suddenly to sniff--one time I barely missed falling on him with full pack) or when I can see far enough in all directions to know that there are no wild animals or other hikers or horse parties just around the corner. And, of course, only when it's legal for him to be off-leash.

I've been in several hazardous scenarios when my dog is on leash and we meet someone with an off-leash dog.

Sometimes the small dogs are worse than the big ones--they are a lot noisier and seem more apt to bite!


Edited by OregonMouse (09/05/09 08:50 PM)
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#120382 - 09/05/09 09:19 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: OregonMouse]
bigb Offline
member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 124
Loc: Maryland
Dogs are more aggressive when on leash, thats why I try not to use a leash whenever possible. I regularly walk my dog without a leash when it is allowed.
When we saw a bear my dog barked and never left my side and looked to me for guidance, the bear walked back in the woods, My dog is a dutch sheperd which hasn't been destroyed by american breeders as of yet.
I trained police K9 and personnel protection dogs for a few years and have more opinions then I know what to do with, but I get much joy out of watching my dog run free in the widerness, but he enoys it even more, it doesn't really bother me if he chases a deer out of our camp or disapears for a few minutes in the woods, he's a dog and is alot more in tune with whats going on in the woods then I am.

I do always keep him on leash where horses are allowed regardless of laws.


Edited by bigb (09/05/09 09:21 PM)
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#120383 - 09/05/09 09:19 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: TomD]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3139
Loc: Portland, OR
Dryer, are loose dogs allowed in your park?

As if this would make a groat's worth of difference to a bad dog owner. The worst ones have absolutely no respect for any rules of any kind that apply to their dogs. All they care about is whatever they want.

I specifically mention "the worst", because most dog owners, like most people in general, are not yahoos.

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#120391 - 09/05/09 11:23 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: bigb]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Originally Posted By bigb
I normaly only hike in wilderness areas simply because you can have your dog off leash


Not all wilderness's allow this. Out here quite a bit of one wilderness requires dogs on leashes and in one whole area dogs are banned.

Each wilderness is governed by the NF in charge, so what is allowed in one, is not always in the next.
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#120392 - 09/05/09 11:25 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: TomD]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Dryer, are loose dogs allowed in your park?


No, they aren't. There is a big green county sign at all trail heads with a bucket load of rules in small print. This lady wasn't interested in 'rules', as most abusers aren't. She wanted the entire park to herself and her 4 monster dogs.
Today, I picked up a dozen beer cans/bottles and 2 empty 'dime bags' that held crack or other drug, all forbidden. Working a park is a constant human study.
The problem with more than one dog is "pack behavior". The nicest dogs change in a pack. I really didn't want to tangle with 400 lbs. of dog.
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#120394 - 09/05/09 11:35 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: bigb]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
And while certain dogs are well mannered and a joy to be around, let me be the first to say this:
Jingling of a dogs collar does nothing to appease me! Rather it sets me on edge

My son has a fear of unleashed dogs that we have not been able to get him better on and we have worked on this for nearly 12 years! Every year it is back to square 1, all it takes is one dog, off leash jumping on him or not backing off.

On a Momma and kids hike we had two toddlers walking along between us adults and had an unleashed dog come barreling down the trail, the dog careened into both toddlers, knocking them down. The dog nearly ran into another mother who had her tiny infant in a front carrier.

Very uncool.

I have had multiple unleashed dogs come around corners running into me, seen dogs knocking rocks off summits above trails, watched alpine meadows trampled and seen too many signs at TH's where a dog saw an animal and bolted and never came back. Did I mention I hate eating lunch and having a dog wander over and try to eat my food? Knocking over gear, walking into a stove? It isn't funny, cute or adorable. Let it be said I had a dog steal a banana peel from the top of my backpack this year. Freaking dog ate it!

I have encountered at least 2 dozen unleashed dogs in the backcountry at Mt. Rainier NP over the years. People ignore the ban of dogs in NP's and in NF's where dogs are banned.

I take the time to compliment responsible owners who leash their pooches. Nearly always those dogs are mellow. They sit and are obedient.

I carry pepper spray at all times in my pack's hipbelt pocket, no matter where I am. It is for dogs. Your dog jumps or slams into my kid, your dog WILL get sprayed!
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#120399 - 09/05/09 11:56 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: bigb]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3967
Loc: Bend, Oregon
bigb

I was charged by an off leash German Shepard in a wilderness area. Fortunately dogs are smart enough to know when they're staring down the barrel of a .44 and he sort of froze (while I spoke very softly to him) until his stupid little girl owner came along and called him off - I will say she apologized as I explained how close her dog came to dying.
Jim crazy
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#120403 - 09/06/09 12:12 AM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Dryer]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
I always hike with my best friend, Sherpa (street name: Bennie). I have never had a problem with him, but other dogs and their owners are another story. I rarely put Sherpa on a leash unless needed, he follows behind quietly with a smile on his face, happy to be "working" (he carries a pack of his own). Sherpa's a very even tempered and mellow pooch, just ask JimShaw, he knows Sherpa. By the way, Jim, he says you owe him a bone from that hike in the Dunes last year mad Better pay up.

Sherpa is getting older and tires more quickly, so when we get to camp, after he marks his territory, he normally just collapses in a heap. Dogs are like people... some good, some bad tempered. I think it all boils down to the owners and their attitudes and how the dog was raised.

BF cool
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#120407 - 09/06/09 12:51 AM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: bigfoot2]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By bigfoot2

... getting older and tires more quickly, so when we get to camp, after he marks his territory, he normally just collapses in a heap.


Oh sure.. *Sherpa* is like this.. grin grin
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#120408 - 09/06/09 12:56 AM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: phat]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3139
Loc: Portland, OR
BF2 also has this friend who is getting old and may do this, too, I hear. laugh

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#120417 - 09/06/09 08:04 AM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: aimless]
bigb Offline
member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 124
Loc: Maryland
Lucky for me what most of you think really doesn't matter. Like I said, dogs are more in tune with whats going on in the woods, at least mine definitely knows more about the surroundings than I do, of course I'm not that bright.

I haven't seen any toddlers recently 5 or 10 miles deep in a wilderness area, but i'll let you know if I do. If a dog steals your trash and eats it he's just leaving no trace, sounds like a great dog.

Did you mean the dog was smart enough to figure out you are a paranoid human which probably wasn't going to pet him anyway, since dogs aren't hunted I don't believe he stopped for a pistol or any other gun.
_________________________
"In the beginers mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few."
Shunryu Suzuki

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#120437 - 09/06/09 01:56 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: bigb]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3139
Loc: Portland, OR
Lucky for me what most of you think really doesn't matter.

This sounds like a classic case of knowing whose ox is being gored. Your dog may be all kinds of wonderful: calm, wise, perfectly poised and always self-controlled. Good for him!

But it is unwise to dismiss what other people think as being irrelevant. Their experience is not yours and it is just as valid as yours. If Jimshaw felt the need to draw a gun on a charging dog, it is because he was was there, could evaluate the threat and the actions needed to neutralize it.

Your imagining that the dog involved was merely looking to be petted and that Jim was "paranoid" is based on... nothing remotely connected to what really happened. You made it up. shocked

This process of rationalization is common enough and we all do it. What is much harder to do is to see it in ourselves, instead of in others, because it is never very pretty.

On the other hand, if you accepted his experience as valid, it would actually make it easier to believe in your good judgement about this issue and easier to accept that you know what you are doing. That is, if you cared what anyone thinks beside yourself.

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#120438 - 09/06/09 01:57 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Dryer]
Fiddleback Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 478
Loc: Northern Rockies
Pit bulls... huge dogs? grin

IMO, there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. But that cliched platitude doesn't help much and I don't think there's much that can be done. Insist that your Animal Control enforce whatever leash laws exist in your area.

FB
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#120439 - 09/06/09 02:10 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Fiddleback]
ndsol Offline
member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 678
Loc: Houston, Texas
I plan on taking mine to the park tomorrow -- Minute Maid Park. For the first time the Astros are having dog day at the baseball game.

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#120442 - 09/06/09 02:35 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: bigb]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I have never felt the need to pull a gun on a dog although I have been tempted to shoot a few owners.

A person hiking has no idea what a paragon of virtue another persons dog is when that dog comes running up to them. Sure, the pooch may be friendly but it really is not the non-owner's responsibility to figure that out.

I have encountered everything from Cairn Terriers to Great Danes on the trail. Mostly the dogs I encounter are friendly; on or off leash. But, I have also encountered many threatening dogs whose owners just stood there with the breeze blowing in one ear and out the other and said "no Fluffy" repeatedly while I was at pucker factor 9 and gaining.

Dogs are great; I have one now and I have had dogs for 30 years. They have all been generally well but not predictably behaved. For that reason, I don't take my dog with me on the trail. I don't think I should inflict my dog on others. Moreover, I resent the heck out of those who do not return the favor. Well behaved dogs are great; ill mannered dogs and their equally ill mannered owners are a plague on society.

Unfortunately, the ill mannered owners are constitutionally unable to see their character flaws. Sadly, the rest of us have no idea what is going to happen if an uncontrolled dog comes after us. Perhaps Jimshaw overreacted but more likely his response was perfectly reasonable.
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#120444 - 09/06/09 03:30 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Dryer]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Interesting responses everyone, but I guess the point is...the lady had 4 big dogs, not one or two. I run into dogs on the trail all the time, and, the lost ones seem to find my house.
There is one lady that hikes here every evening with two loose, little yappy black dogs, that always seem to find me and go strait for my shins...after whacking one with a trekking pole, they keep their distance. She still lets the dogs run loose, even after I asked her to leash them....nope, her babies come first and animal control officers don't work at night.
I have no idea how to hold off 4 dogs (yes, pit bulls can be stocky big dogs and they do kill people) and shouldn't have to. Asking my animal control officer to "enforce the leash laws" is like asking cops to stop speeders and drunks. This thread won't stop people from being selfish idiots with their animals. So, I protect my self the most effective way I know....the same way the animal control officers do.
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#120448 - 09/06/09 05:33 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: Dryer]
bigb Offline
member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 124
Loc: Maryland
My dog and I just got back from running down toddlers, stealing picnic baskets and dodging bullets.

I guess I'm the only one that reads entire post. I normally walk my dog without leash when allowed, that means its legal, and deemed appropriate by the powers that be.

I can only hope that the people who I was responding to on my last post have a better appreciation for sarcasism than anyone who is responding on there behalf.

What people think is irrelevant when it really doesn't have anything to do with the statements I made, or typed.

I like and joined this forum for what I saw as common sense respones to many questions on many subjects after being a visitor for years, but respones addressed to me about pulling guns on dogs and respones about toddlers at parks where there are probably thousands of visitors a day which my post clearly say I'm in areas with very few people were a bit over the top and irrelevant, so I responded in the same manner and am a bit dissapointed with where this whole thing went.


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"In the beginers mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few."
Shunryu Suzuki

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#120452 - 09/06/09 06:07 PM Re: Big Dogs and their weird owners..... [Re: bigb]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
The topic of dogs on trails and in other public areas is a hot-button topic; almost as hot as the topic of guns and backpacking. So far, I think, that the responses to your posts have been pretty reasonable given the nature of the subject. You, however, seem determined to toss gasoline on the fire. Comments such as:
Quote:
My dog and I just got back from running down toddlers, stealing picnic baskets and dodging bullets.

are neither helpful nor funny.

You may be a dog expert, I have no way of knowing. But, for a lot of us non-experts, being confronted with even the mildest of dogs running loose in public spaces is cause for legitimate concern. If you cannot appreciate this concern, it is a bit sad to say the very least.

And finally:
Quote:
I can only hope that the people who I was responding to on my last post have a better appreciation for sarcasism than anyone who is responding on there behalf.

Sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish between sarcasm and plain hardheadedness, especially in print.
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