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#117211 - 06/12/09 09:50 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Marc]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Marc
I sympathise with you and your fear of bears.

Why are you going to Yosemite? Partly to see the bears? Park bears are not a threat. In all the time I've spent in Yosemite, and that is considerable, I've never been closer than 100 to a bear and it was going the other way and totally ignoring me.

Assuming you will be attacked by a bear is just not reasonable. You are more apt to be struck by lightening (literally) or to have a rock fall on you. Its not worth the weight of belly button fuzz to carry bear spray. You can't even season your food with it.

Before I leave I want to say tht being dependent on technology and percieved safety through hardware is a false sense of security. Even if you are armed with a cannon, you still have to be skilled with its use, and have it available. The only real potentially dangerous animal enounters that I have had lasted a couple of seconds and there was no time to even draw a gun if I had one. My body language was all it took.

And bears are not in the slightest bit interested in YOU. This is kind of a narcicistic attitude that you are so special that you will be the 7585th person and you will be the one to be eaten. Worry about something more reasonable, like giardia.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#117212 - 06/12/09 10:07 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Jimshaw]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
And bears are not in the slightest bit interested in YOU.
I disagree. Bears stalk humans, way more often than we know. They do not attack very often, but they do take an interest in humans, for sure.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#117213 - 06/12/09 10:12 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Marc]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Marc
I do not believe the odds of getting hurt are the same for everyone. I realize the dangers are the same. The odds of someone like me, a greenhorn, getting lost,mauled,etc. are much greater than they are for someone with your experience. Therefore stats are basically worthless.


I really don't think that's true. A well read greenhorn has an edge over someone who just packed junk in a bag and goes out on a trail. Also, not many people get hurt, period. All you do is decrease an already small risk - but that's what we all do, when we research and read and ask questions.

If you really want to see a perfect example of how small a risk there is, consider Yosemite. Hordes of people who never hike more than a couple of miles in a mall flock to see it. It's not a theme park but a wilderness area - but the tourists don't understand that and they don't know how to prepare. The ratio of injuries to people going out in the trail system is shockingly low, considering all the knuckleheads who don't bother reading the leaflets they hand out at the gate, who feed the deer, try to take closeups of the bears by walking up to them, go to Half Dome in flipflops, head up the Mist Trail with half a liter of water, etc. etc. On one hike to Vernal Falls I saw a wedding party (four inch heels and tuxedos, great hiking gear!), nuns in full habit, ladies in burkhas and about a zillion and a half other people speaking at least ten different languages, none of them in any kind of hiking gear. A lot of them turned back at the lower bridge, but a surprising number make their way up one of the steepest, wettest trails in the park to Nevada Falls. The open granite is hot in temperate conditions because of the sun bouncing back in your face. People overheat and SAR frequently puts someone at the top to filter water for those who don't have enough.

You may feel like you're at more risk, but I doubt it. You're reading a backpacking forum, that gives you a leg up over millions of people who go to Yosemite who just go for a "short hike."

I am always a proponent of doing what makes you feel safe, however, so if you're not quite up to believing the black bears will avoid you most places, take what you need. Panicked people are more dangerous to themselves - making decisions under the influence of adrenalin can also be dangerous.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#117215 - 06/13/09 12:03 AM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Jimshaw]
Marc Offline
member

Registered: 06/05/09
Posts: 36
Loc: Iowa
Time Out.
Do I think a can of bear spray (even one as big as a fire hydrant) will save me? of course not. Do I think it is even likely that I will ever need it?? No. Will packing an extra few ounces on my belt make my trip more relaxed and enjoyable ?? It will for me. Try to remember I do not have your experience. The only point I was trying to make about stats and odds are that they do not really show the real picture. Experienced hikers such as yourselves reduce your risk of injury through hands on knowledge. I have no way of proving it but I believe most unfortunate accidents happen to inexperienced hikers. I do not wish to be one of those unfortunate ones, which is why I am here, to learn all I can before I go into the backcountry, where the real learning begins.

Jim .. you might try just a pinch of bellybutton fuzz in your oatmeal. It is actually .. well .. indescribable.

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#117219 - 06/13/09 12:40 AM Re: Bear Spray [Re: midnightsun03]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By midnightsun03
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
And bears are not in the slightest bit interested in YOU.
I disagree. Bears stalk humans, way more often than we know. They do not attack very often, but they do take an interest in humans, for sure.

MNS


I'm sure if we knew how many stalk us we'd all be wiggin' out back to the car in a hurry...

I found a perfect mountain lion track in the middle of a trail once. After eyeballing every rock and tree for a good ten minutes and seeing nothing, I waved and shouted "Hi, lion, just passing through!" and headed up the trail. If he wanted me, he would have had me already. I'm sure this has been repeated a thousand times since...

I was camped in a river bottom with a couple of friends. I spent several hours before bed trying to get rid of the feeling we were being watched - I kept looking around, up the canyon walls, into the trees, and never saw anything. I still think we were being watched to this day. Was it a person? It was a fairly well traveled area, in Henry Coe State Park. Was it a lion? Probably more likely that than a person. When it got dark, I stuck my ipod in my ears and listened to a relaxation mp3 until I fell asleep, slept soundly, and woke to a frost. Nothing happened. Nothing much I could have done if something had - hit it with a stick? Okay, my poles were close to hand, but will I have time to grab them? Or a gun? or a bear spray? Not really.

Incidentally, one of my friends brought a can of bear spray because she was worried about wild pigs. It went off in her pack by accident when she sat it down on a lunch break, prompting "why are you hissing at us." If we had been in bear country, it would have smelled mighty appealing to the bears. It also begged the question of what she thought she was going to do if pigs actually ran at us - drop the pack, upend it and dig?

Not all my friends think the way I do, either. That's okay, as long as they don't spray me with it.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#117220 - 06/13/09 12:57 AM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Jimshaw]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Jimshaw


Assuming you will be attacked by a bear is just not reasonable. You are more apt to be struck by lightening (literally) or to have a rock fall on you. Its not worth the weight of belly button fuzz to carry bear spray. You can't even season your food with it.

Before I leave I want to say tht being dependent on technology and percieved safety through hardware is a false sense of security. Even if you are armed with a cannon, you still have to be skilled with its use, and have it available. The only real potentially dangerous animal enounters that I have had lasted a couple of seconds and there was no time to even draw a gun if I had one. My body language was all it took.


I agree with you in this, but you can't convince people not to fear. I have a number of folks - some of them very experienced hikers - in my hiking group who have this pathological fear of bears. I ask if they were bitten or charged by one - nope. I can tell them my "saw a bear on the trail and it just walked away" story repeatedly and they still think a bear is going to jump out of the woods and eat them while we're doing a moonlight hike to Half Dome.

One lady (wonderful gal) was backpacking with us in the evening down the JMT from Little Yosemite Valley - this lady had a lifetime of camping and hiking and taking all her kids out there. She fell a little behind on the trail in the dark and ended up walking alone; I don't know why she didn't yell, probably didn't want to impose on the rest of us to walk slower with her, which we would have. She still insists she's not going back in the dark. Nothing happened to her other than walking alone down the trail, but she will say she doesn't want to be eaten by a bear - she must have had a major case of heebie jeebies going down. Or maybe she just doesn't like the dark and bears are more solid things to pin her fear on... Others worry about them in daytime as well. One lady with her aching back carried that bear spray the whole way in a side pocket of her pack - where it stayed, useless if she needed it because she had to ask other people to get stuff out of the pockets while she was wearing the pack.

So no amount of talk is going to change anyone's mind about bear spray... it's just fear. Some people have it, some of us go out anyway and lose it due to our experiences. But some of the experienced hikers keep it.

Again, experience has nothing to do with your chances of getting mauled by a bear or lion. Any one of us could be walking on the trail that day when the one-in-a-zillion previously-avoidant critter gets a flash of an idea to pounce suddenly. Whether we get the chance to use the bear spray or the stick or the .30-06 is a roll of the dice.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#117221 - 06/13/09 01:17 AM Re: Bear Spray [Re: lori]
Marc Offline
member

Registered: 06/05/09
Posts: 36
Loc: Iowa
I grew up seeing the cover of Outdoor Life Magazine displaying a giant grizzly standing upright with blood on its fangs and claws swatting a pack of dogs around like they were misquitos. Or just attacking some poor camper, ( in the same grizzly pose of course ). Childhood images can be hard to displace.
I cannot imagine what that poor woman went through walking alone in the dark. I guess some fears have to be met head on.

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#117225 - 06/13/09 06:33 AM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Marc]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By Marc
Should I experience a bear encounter, will I even realize it before I am facedown on the trail wearing a bear rug?

Should he just want to scare me and then run off, will my heart be able to slow down enough to avoid exploding?


If you hear the 'clucking' or 'clicking' sound that a Black Bear makes - well - you better damn well be aware of your surroundings. It's a distinct warning sound that you may be getting a little to close for the bears comfort.

I'd like to give more advice on these types of situations, but I'm not qualified. In fact, I've probably said to much already.


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#117233 - 06/13/09 09:42 AM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Marc]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Quote:
The odds of someone like me, a greenhorn, getting lost,mauled,etc. are much greater than they are for someone with your experience.

I suspect, Marc, that a rank greenhorn is a lot less likely to get in trouble than is the typical, semi-experienced, cocky young male. By this I mean a reasonably fit male 15 to 35 years-old with a few years of outdoor experience or recent military experience under his belt. If you look at the rescue statistics in Grand Canyon NP as an example, you'll see youthful, testosterone-fueled, overconfidence featured as a common theme of the typical rescue, live or dead, from below the rim. To quote Will Rogers (probably not real accurately): "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble; it's what you think you know that ain't so that does it".

Probably the second most likely candidate for rescue are old f@rts like me who are still in denial about getting older.

Take your bear spray, relax, don't worry about what others say, and have a great time.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#117234 - 06/13/09 10:07 AM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Marc]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Marc
I grew up seeing the cover of Outdoor Life Magazine displaying a giant grizzly standing upright with blood on its fangs and claws swatting a pack of dogs around like they were misquitos. Or just attacking some poor camper, ( in the same grizzly pose of course ). Childhood images can be hard to displace.
I cannot imagine what that poor woman went through walking alone in the dark. I guess some fears have to be met head on.


My best friend in high school hunted bears with dogs. Bear meat can taste pretty good. The reality is rarely what it is on magazines full of advertising for things like guns and other outdoor gear.

I can imagine what my friend went through... I went solo for quite a while. The first time was the hardest; successive outings I was less and less afraid of being out there in the moonless dark by myself, until I realized that the worst thing that was going to happen was mosquito bites on my butt when I did a midnight run. The only animal I've had through camp was a turkey. Still waiting for a bear to touch my canister, which has been in active bear areas the entire time it's been in use.

Feelings are feelings, they don't have to control your choices.

When I hike with a group and some of them carry bear spray, I pitch my setup a ways from them, upwind if I can determine that, and tell them I'll probably be waking them up if I get out of the sack to pee by whistling or humming as I go through camp, so they don't shoot me with their bear spray panicking in their half sleep. Maybe they won't like that but I think they would like it more than running for SAR.


Edited by lori (06/13/09 03:49 PM)
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#117239 - 06/13/09 04:31 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: lori]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Having an understanding of bear behavior makes a big difference in how one feels about sharing trails with bears. Bears don't act arbitrarily. They don't mind their own business and then leap out of nowhere and attack a human. Most bear attacks are related to hunger (lack of food sources make bears very grumpy, and hunger/malnutrition may make them much more dangerous because they are driven by instinct to eat and fatten up over a very short period of time), youthful curiosity, an protection (cubs, kill).

When salmon are running hot and heavy anglers and bears both hang out on river banks in as close to what you could call harmony as you could find between bears and humans. When salmon are sparse, bears will become very aggressive and become dangerous. Humans start to resemble prey when bears are hungry.

Education is important. Blind fear is bad. Healthy respect and a little understanding make sharing the woods with bears much more enjoyable. I know in the archives there are some good references for books about bear behavior.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#117253 - 06/14/09 05:25 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Marc]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Wow! I would love to see that lint in your belly button. I have seen two sizes of spray - the smaller one is about 6-8 oz. and the larger one about 12oz. They both spray the same, the larger one just offers more shots than the smaller version. They come with a holster - this NEEDS to be used.

I really think everyone need to practice before counting on these. You may be able to get an out-dated one from a store at a reduced price or free. Then go practice using it. You really need to see how it sprays and have it second nature (like doing an ice-axe self arrest).

I do not use bear spray in the Sierra. I would use it if I were to go to Alaska.

As for firearms - now that is something really heavy. And you also better be an expert shot.

My partner is a traditional bow hunter. He says that people actually hunt bear with traditional bows. I wonder if just the act of being the predator instead of the prey makes the bears weary of you? I have wondered if I carried an imitation (like a baloon blow up) gun if aiming it at a bear would make the bear run. I have actually picked up a stick and carried it like a gun once when I though I was in mountain lion country. If there were a lion, he probably just laughed at me!

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#117256 - 06/14/09 06:40 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: wandering_daisy]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Fear certainly seems to attract bears, although many bear attacks have occurred so suddenly that the human attacked never even knew they were being tracked by a bear. But I have heard one story of a mauling where the female of the couple stood her ground and tried the talk the bear down ("hey bear, hey bear") and the male of the couple panicked and tried to run away. He got about two steps before the sow brown bear got him across the face with her paw. The bear never went after the female hiker. The sow then took off into the trees to her cubs once she felt the "threat" had been neutralized. The male hiker had extensive facial injuries but survived and today you have to know what happened to see the scars. Anyway, the female hiker felt that it was the fear in her partner that had triggered the attack on him as until he panicked and started to run, the bear had seemed to be bluff charging and the hikers were backing off.

I can't see what I'm typing now so I'll ppost this.
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#117286 - 06/15/09 11:03 AM Re: Bear Spray [Re: midnightsun03]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
This didn't happen too long ago:

http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-jun1209-bear_attack_folo.73be7ef6.html

A man seemed to stumble into a no-win situation with a sow and two cubs and a buried elk carcass nearby. I guess he came around a corner and there she and her two cubs were.

Being by himself, the only thing I think this guy might have done wrong was possibly not make noise while he was walking because, everything I've heard about it made this situation seem like it was pure surprise on the part of both parties. But who knows if talking while talking would have even helped either. One of those "what if" situations it doesn't hurt putting yourself in mentally.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#117291 - 06/15/09 01:39 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: MattnID]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Interesting - bear spray AND a gun and he couldn't get to either.

It makes me wonder if bears have 2 kinds of attacks - where they are just trying to neutralize a threat, and where they are treating the person as prey. Seems that more people survive the attacks where they stumble between a sow and cub, or bear and food cache, but die when attacked after being stalked for some time. I haven't seen any stats, just thinking off the top of my head here.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#117301 - 06/15/09 07:07 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: midnightsun03]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
I'd have to agree with you on the types of attacks. A large majority of the bear attacks I hear about that resemble the one that I posted the link to tend to leave the person wounded but not dead. This guy was able to walk 3-4 miles it said back to the trailhead. That sow could have put and end to that hiker at any point during the attack but didn't. I've heard a lot of accounts that started just like this hiker's but ended in some nasty scars and a greater respect for bears. The bears seem to more or less want to ensure an opportunity for them to leave safely and leave a message. Look at sows that chase off bores that get too close to them and their cubs. They pursure the bores to either what they feel is a far more desired distance or the bore gets the chance to go in the other direction.

I think of stalking instances with hungry bears and think of that Timothy Treadwell fellow who was a little too comfortable with the bears up there in Katmai. That bear made a point of killing the two victims because apparently food wasn't as avaliable at that point in the year when the bears were looking to put a lot of weight on for winter.

In my own experiences with bears, both brown and black, they tend to be as weary of us as we are of them. Every bear I've ever come within fairly close proximity to(less than 100 yards) headed in the other direction. Granted, all the bears I've ever encountered are pretty wild and aren't "dumpster divers," nor have I ever come into close proximity of a sow with cubs, so I've been lucky thus far in my outdoor escapades.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#117307 - 06/15/09 09:55 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: intrek38]
jimbame Offline
member

Registered: 02/21/04
Posts: 50
I've carried one in the Bear Tooths, Wind River, and Sawtooths...have never used it..it's now out of date, but will be replaced. I've scared black bears in the Bear Tooths just like the books say -- make yourself big, etc. They ran off, but were smallish...3-4 year olds.....heard a grizz and cubs (sounded almost like Indonesian wild hogs) later in the trip....packed up and walked three hours more....

I hope I never have to use bear spray....but my wife's peace of mind is important too...

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#117310 - 06/15/09 10:43 PM Re: Bear Spray [Re: Pika]
Marc Offline
member

Registered: 06/05/09
Posts: 36
Loc: Iowa
Lord knows I have commented on this subject way more than I should have but I just wanted to thank Pika.
I will take bear spray and I intend to enjoy every step of my time in Yellowstone.
Note to Daisey .. if you read this, I may have stretched the truth about my belly button lint just a tad. I hope it at least gave you a chuckle. As for the advice you have given me, I am paying attention and appreciate your help as well as the help from everyone in here such as Pika.
Hopefully some day I too may have enough experience to express a worthwhile opinion which may help someone.

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