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#107550 - 12/05/08 01:39 PM New DOI regulation related to hand guns.
Fets Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Cleveland, OH

http://www.doi.gov/news/08_News_Releases/120508.html

Didn't see a discussion on this yet, what does everyone think?

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#107551 - 12/05/08 02:03 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Fets]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Some will love it, some will not. I'm in the latter group.
_________________________
--Rick

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#107552 - 12/05/08 02:18 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Rick_D]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
The first time someone's kid gets killed by a camper who thought they heard a bear or someone gets shot because they complained about someone else making noise, we'll see what a good idea this was. It will happen and probably sooner than later.

Rangers have enough to worry about, let alone people running around the parks carrying handguns.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#107553 - 12/05/08 03:04 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
It will happen and probably sooner than later.


Maybe, or the inverse could happen. Not much. People have been carrying guns illegally in national parks for decades. The law is talking about trained, CHL holders only being allowed, and the stats show them to be ultra-law abiding, with very few incidents. Time will tell. (unlicensed people will still illegally carry, no doubt)

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2006.pdf
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#107554 - 12/05/08 03:23 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Rick_D]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I don't like the idea very much myself. But, I suspect that the requirement of a concealed carry permit (CCW) from the state in which the park is located will reduce the number of gunslingers considerably. Moreover, a person who holds a concealed carry permit has to have attended a class on the legal issues of the use of deadly force and also has to show some minimum competence with a pistol. This should markedly reduce reckless behavior with guns.

In Arizona, anyone not a convicted felon or adjudged mentally incompetent can obtain a CCW. But, at least when I got mine, the permit holder had to pay for and attend two eight-hour days of class and show a minimum level of accuracy with, and safe handling of, the weapon before the permit was issued. You are also fingerprinted and the state runs a FBI check to be sure you are not a felon. I think that the effort required to get a CCW and the sobering lectures on criminal and civil liability surrounding use of a concealed weapon will ensure a reasonably high standard of responsible behavior. As far as I am aware, no holder of a CCW in Arizona has yet used their pistol in any criminal endeavor or unjustified shooting. I'm sure that will change but at present, CCW holders seem to be a pretty responsible group of citizens.
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#107555 - 12/05/08 04:48 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
This fellow, for example, has a concealed carry permit:

Article
_________________________
--Rick

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#107556 - 12/05/08 04:50 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Dryer]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
The problem with rules like this is they encourage vigilante justice. The new laws regarding self-defense have resulted in store clerks chasing people down the street after shoplifting and gunning them down for taking some beer or the homeowner who sees someone stealing his neighbor's tv so he goes out into his yard and kills them. Both of these are true events. Whether someone gets charged or not isn't even the point. These laws encourage people to get into gunfights or shoot people for minor offenses.

I wouldn't be keen on someone stealing something out of my tent, but at the same time, I don't think I would be justified killing them for it. The NRA thinks otherwise.

http://tinyurl.com/6hbspx

No doubt there are plenty of stories about gun owners rightfully protecting their property or themselves, but too often, the victims are innocent bystanders. Fortunately, in the case of Plaxico Burress, the only person he managed to shoot in a crowded nightclub was himself and he had a permit at one time in Florida.


Edited by TomD (12/05/08 04:57 PM)

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#107557 - 12/05/08 06:32 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods
TomD,
I believe the two incidents you refer to regarding vigilante justice were not performed by CHL individuals. If I am mistaken, I will gladly stand corrected. As Dryer points out, CHL folks are by and large ultra-conservative in their use of fire arms.

The one thing that is not total clear in this ruling is reciprocity. Texas has agreements with several other states regarding CHL. They way I read this that it is only in that state (e.g. Grand Canyon would only accept Arizona, Davy Crockett NF in Texas would only accept Texas).

I would prefer that if I had a CHL in Texas, I could legally carry in any national park or forest where that state has a reciprocity agreement with Texas (e.g Oklahoma, Louisiana, New Mexico). Of course, it might be a moot point if I could get a CHL from Arizona just based on my CHL from Texas and a background check. Heck, I'd even take a rules/regulation test from AZ if they would accept my training hours and shooting scores from TX. I'm just using AZ as an example. This could be with any state.

Just my $0.02.

Tango

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#107558 - 12/05/08 08:02 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Tango61]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Tango, the incidents I referred to where in the story I linked to and were not so much about a CWP or CHL as you call them down your way, but the relaxed "self-defense" laws that open up a whole argument as to what is "self-defense." Running after someone and shooting them, is hardly self-defense in my opinion.

In the case of the neighbor, I think he had called the cops and they told him to stay inside. Instead he took a shotgun, went outside and shot the two burglars in his neighbor's yard or at the street. They were unarmed, but he wasn't charged. That makes no sense to me.

The last thing I am interested in is wondering if the next person I come across in a national park is going to think that I'm somehow a threat to them, pull out a handgun and shoot me, then claim self-defense. If I'm dead, they have the perfect alibi.


Edited by TomD (12/05/08 08:06 PM)
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#107559 - 12/05/08 09:20 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
I know of no 'relaxed' self defense laws. I do know about the "Castle Doctrine" and the right to defend one's property (home) with deadly force. With few exceptions, it's used rarely and the line between defense and murder is very thin. The CHL classes spend a majority of time teaching that deadly force usually results in a lifetime of grief and is a dire last resort, and that non-violent conflict resolution is prime. This is why many CHL holders choose not to carry, or carry with discretion....they've been educated. Think if it as "a well regulated militia". The data speaks for itself.

Quote:
The last thing I am interested in is wondering if the next person I come across in a national park is going to think that I'm somehow a threat to them, pull out a handgun and shoot me, then claim self-defense. If I'm dead, they have the perfect alibi.


They would likely be charged with murder. As I indicated before, you've already come across such people and probably never new it. Illegal carry has been happening in national parks since parks were parks. What happens now is that CHL holders are allowed to carry, unlicensed lawbreakers now face much stiffer penalties if caught. I'm fine with that.

Tim brings up a good point regarding reciprocity. Most states now recognise each other's licensure. Also, in Texas, it's lawful to carry a concealed firearm in you car, with no license. Apparently that doesn't carry over to national parks, which is probably a good thing.
_________________________
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#107560 - 12/05/08 09:25 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I don't get the CHL part. Its just wrong to allow concealed and not displayed weapons. I usually use a shoulder holster over my coat. Its more American to display your weapon.

That said, people have used other rights like self defense of home as defined as including vehicle and RV, as a reason to carry anywhere. I never heard about having your guns broken down being ok in federal parks. I thought all guns except for LEO were forbidden.

Here inBend the percentage of people with a CHL is high - I think the local college adult learning section has a one day class. Sometimes I wonder if terrorists attact Bend, how many armed citizens would return fire with loaded concealed weapons. You would have to be insane to burglarize a home in central Oregon here in redneck and hunting country doncha know. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Ifn ya'all don't have a deer rifle then you aint fertilizer. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#107561 - 12/05/08 11:11 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Dryer]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
LA is infamous for road rage and car to car shootings, so being allowed to carry a weapon in the car would be a bad idea here. You'd have a lot of people up-armoring their cars if they could afford it. It would be like driving around Baghdad.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#107562 - 12/06/08 04:38 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Dryer]
oldneez Offline


Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 7
Loc: North Carolina
I'm a new member, but I wanted to comment on this thread. I have a concealed carry permit and have never carried in a national park, because it's against the law. I have a friend who asked for my advice when he purchased his first handgun. He wanted it for home protection and to carry in parks when he goes hiking. I advised him that it is illegal to carry in the parks, and I suggested he take the CCW class to learn the various aspects of the laws regarding the use of deadly force. As has been stated, most the class is spent teaching that deadly force is only a last resort and that it will result in lengthy, expensive legal problems.

That said, if this measure is approved, I will probably quietly carry a small handgun in the parks of my state for my own protection and that of my family. We all like to think of the parks as a safe refuge from the ugly parts of life. Unfortunately, there have been too many crimes against hikers to believe that anymore.

To get a concealed carry permit you have to be fingerprinted and undergo the same background check as a LEO. It's not a simple process. I believe those with CCW permits are among the safest and most law abiding folks you can be around.

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#107563 - 12/06/08 05:39 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Jimshaw]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
I usually use a shoulder holster over my coat. Its more American to display your weapon.


In the woods or wilderness I think you should have your weapon as handy as possible. The idea of conceling a weapon is two fold. 1. If some thug gets the drop on you well, they have the drop on you and thats that. But in a carjacking situation, some thugs will just shoot you then take your car. Sometimes they will take your car etc and shoot you anyway. So conceiling may be good in having some element of suprise. 2. Keeping your gun hidden keeps people from feeling like there in the old west. Out of sight out of mind. You might add a #3 or so if you like. Just my thoughts. In a public park like yellowstone etc. I don't think that guns are needed. But in the wilderness, well, thats another subject...
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#107564 - 12/06/08 05:57 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
I never heard about having your guns broken down being ok in federal parks. I thought all guns except for LEO were forbidden.


I ran into that this year at Big Bend N.P. When I checked in, the ranger asked if we had any firearms, and if so, they must be unloaded, broken down, and stored in the trunk (i drive a 4runner...no trunk....but i didn't have a gun anyway). I think the idea is designed for people passing through in their RV's going cross country.


oldneez said:
Quote:
I have a concealed carry permit and have never carried in a national park, because it's against the law.


Exactly. You are a law abiding citizen. All the data (see my link way up there somewhere) about crime and CHL holders shows them to be extra-law abiding, and I believe that data helped in the National Park decision. When I took my CHL class, I was quite impressed by the mix of people in the class and the overall good will. We all had to pass two background checks, get fingerprinted, pass a shooting test, then a written test. It took almost 6 months for the process to be completed. There were a couple of people culled out of the class due to past legal issues, one child support delinquency and one outstanding traffic warrant. Everyone walked out educated and warned of consequences. Unlike a typical street thug that bought a stolen gun and hijacks cars....but that street thug who preys on easy prey, now knows the prey isn't as easy as it once was.


TomD said:
Quote:
LA is infamous for road rage and car to car shootings, so being allowed to carry a weapon in the car would be a bad idea here. You'd have a lot of people up-armoring their cars if they could afford it. It would be like driving around Baghdad.



Yup, LA is always in the movies and cop shows. In 1998, Texas decided to go the Concealed Handgun License route. There was huge outrage that our streets would become battle grounds. The opposite happened....crime dropped. The number 1 opponent of the law is now a supporter, after the data started rolling in. I originally opposed the law and I'm a hunter since grade school.
The majority of cops here like the idea.....i was told to get licensed by a cop, and my instructor was a cop and retired chief. I believe the law is probably as close to the essence of the 2nd Amendment as we've ever gotten.
I think the difference is "law abiding" vs. "law breaking" people with regard to any crime, in parks or elsewhere.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#107565 - 12/06/08 06:36 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Fets]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I think you have far more to worry about an unlicensed individual carrying illegally than from a licensed individual carrying legally. I don't believe this law will affect the individual safety of those that don't carry one iota.

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#107566 - 12/06/08 06:43 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: oldneez]
scottyb Offline
member

Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas Hill Country
Quote:
I'm a new member, but I wanted to comment on this thread. I have a concealed carry permit and have never carried in a national park, because it's against the law. I have a friend who asked for my advice when he purchased his first handgun. He wanted it for home protection and to carry in parks when he goes hiking. I advised him that it is illegal to carry in the parks, and I suggested he take the CCW class to learn the various aspects of the laws regarding the use of deadly force. As has been stated, most the class is spent teaching that deadly force is only a last resort and that it will result in lengthy, expensive legal problems.

That said, if this measure is approved, I will probably quietly carry a small handgun in the parks of my state for my own protection and that of my family. We all like to think of the parks as a safe refuge from the ugly parts of life. Unfortunately, there have been too many crimes against hikers to believe that anymore.

To get a concealed carry permit you have to be fingerprinted and undergo the same background check as a LEO. It's not a simple process. I believe those with CCW permits are among the safest and most law abiding folks you can be around.


This is a prime example. Anti-gun laws only effect law abiding citizens. They have no effect on criminals other than to embolden them in knowing that their prey can not protect themselves. When the CWL law passed in Texas, it was partly due to one of our legislators passionate support. Her parents were victims of the Luby's masacre in Kileen, TX, where the gunman rammed his car into the building, then mythodically waked around and shot the defenseless people.


Edited by scottyb (12/06/08 06:51 AM)
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#107567 - 12/06/08 08:45 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: scottyb]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I've never felt compelled to carry a gun when bping. I used to manage a minimarket for many years and at times wondered if I ought to have a weapon at work. Company policy didn't allow that, so the point was mute. We only got held up once, in all the years I was there and the perp used a wrench. Now, with all the laws, I worry about even carrying one of my guns to the shooting range, a few miles away to practice. I guess I am ok, as long as my gun is located away from my ammo when transporting, such as the ammo in the trunk or bed of my vehicle, depending on what I am driving. Over on The Backpacker last year, Prosecutor mentioned what to tell the law after you shot someone in your house or in self defense. Something police respected while they hauled you to jail. Shooting and killing someone is something you will have to live with the rest of your life.

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#107568 - 12/06/08 09:29 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: oldneez]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I don't get how a piece of paper makes a person safer? In a lot of places, gun permits are handed out as political favors and even where there's a set of criteria, fools still get them.

Quote:

Marysville man held in shooting of daughter, 6

By Sonia Krishnan and Christine Clarridge

Seattle Times staff reporters

The father of a 6-year-old Marysville girl who was fatally shot at her home Sunday had been drinking double shots of vodka while he cleaned his guns, according to probable-cause documents.

Richard Peters told Snohomish County sheriff's deputies he had drunk several double vodkas when one of the guns discharged, striking his daughter Stormy in the head, according to the court papers. The girl was airlifted to Seattle Children's Hospital, where she died early Monday, said sheriff's Lt. Jeff Brand.

When later questioned by deputies, Peters said he felt that at the time of the shooting he would have been too intoxicated to drive.

Peters, 42, was arrested and is being held on investigation of first-degree manslaughter. He is being held in the Snohomish County Jail in lieu of $250,000 bail.

Stormy was a first-grade student at Quil Ceda Elementary School in the Marysville School District.

Peters' other two children, an 8-year-old and a 3-year-old, have been removed from the home by Child Protective Services, according to Rebecca Hover, spokeswoman for the Snohomish County Sheriff's Office.

Peters was at home with his wife and three children on Sunday night when he sent Stormy upstairs to fetch a Colt Double Eagle .45-caliber handgun from his nightstand. Snohomish County sheriff's investigators said Peters told them he took out the magazine, pulled the trigger and the gun went off.

Peters called 911 at 7:26 p.m. to report that his daughter had been shot in the head at their home in the 4500 block of 83rd Place Northwest. He told a 911 operator that he and his daughter were cleaning guns when the girl was shot, deputies said.

Peters later told deputies the Colt has a "hair trigger."

According to the probable-cause document, deputies said neither of the couple's other children were in the room at the time of the shooting. They reported that they found vodka and a spent shell casing in the room.

Detectives completed their on-scene investigation Monday, Hover said. They removed other firearms from the house, but she did not specify how many weapons or which types.

According to deputies, Peters told them he had been in the military, was "very proficient" with firearms and that he had both a license and a permit to carry concealed weapons.

He also told deputies that all of his children handle weapons, according to court documents.

According to deputies, Peters told them this wasn't the first accidental discharge he had experienced while handling firearms. He said a shotgun accidentally fired during a "pumpkin shoot" in Darrington the day after Halloween when a friend handed him what he thought was an unloaded shotgun and he pulled the trigger, firing a round. No one was hurt.

Neighbors on Monday described the Peters family as "wonderful people."

"This is a terrible tragedy for the whole neighborhood," said neighbor Erika Smith.

She said the Peters children were among a group of five in the close-knit neighborhood who played together constantly. The death of the 6-year-old has been devastating for them all, she said.
_________________________
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#107569 - 12/06/08 11:01 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Fets]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
This won't change much except to give Americans the rights they are already guaranteed in the Constitution.

In the early 90's, many poeple decried the "bloodbath" that would ensue when states began authorizing concealed cary permits for law-abiding citizens. It never happened. In fact, violent crime rates in the great majority of those locales have dropped.

Of course, this won't change any one's opinion, so I'll leave it at that and bow out of this debate.
_________________________
http://www.trailjournals.com/BearpawAT99/

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#107570 - 12/06/08 11:04 AM not another gun thread [Re: TomD]
Goatee Offline
member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 258
Loc: Idahoo
I like going to the parks in the Fall to get away from guns but I guess they are allowed in church so.....
_________________________
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#107571 - 12/06/08 11:56 AM Re: not another gun thread [Re: Goatee]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
Gun threads are just a fact of life in outdoors forums. You can choose to participate or not.

I am not a gun owner and don't see that ever changing, but I think gun laws and regulations are everyone's business, so I often look in on the gun threads to see if that is being discussed. If so, I sometimes express an opinion, respectfully.

If all that's being discussed are gun specs and other technicalities, I have nothing useful to add.

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#107572 - 12/06/08 12:10 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Bearpaw]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
our biggst problem up here as i see it, is that people who work in the bush ie timber cruisers, miners, trappers are not allowed to carry handguns. they are the ones that need it. the rest of us can do well with bear spray.

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#107573 - 12/06/08 12:26 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: northernbcr]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I think it would be better if people just carried sticks, and we all just lightened up a bit.
Until then I guess people have to make their choices, especially with their children.

So far at least the Grizzlies are doing their part, better than we are for the most part. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#107574 - 12/06/08 12:38 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: JAK]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
jak i agree with your statement that the bears are doing there part better than us. most of our problems are based on the fact that we have over protected our bears alowing the populations to get dangerously high and the bears losing there inherent fear of man.

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#107575 - 12/06/08 12:42 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: JAK]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I think the woods would (hah) be a much better place if everybody packed one of these:

Gun!
_________________________
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#107576 - 12/06/08 01:34 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Rick_D]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
I think the woods would (hah) be a much better place if everybody packed one of these:

Gun!


OWWW! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

That oregano stings, dude!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#107577 - 12/06/08 03:44 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Bearpaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Quote:
I think the woods would (hah) be a much better place if everybody packed one of these:

Gun!


OWWW! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

That oregano stings, dude!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


BAM!

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Winter list.
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#107578 - 12/06/08 04:16 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: phat]
azcanyon Offline
member

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 264
Oregano, nuthin'...I just sustained a self-inflicted cayenne pepper wound. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A couple of quick thoughts...

Maybe the concealed permit holders are more responsible gun-folk (I'm not totally convinced, but willing to grant the point for the sake of argument). But has anyone really felt the need for guns in national parks? I mean, what problem is this change to the status quo solving?

Whatever your stance on the second amendment, most reasonable people would agree that there are some places where guns shouldn't be allowed. I happen to think national parks are among those places. I don't anticipate armageddon or anything, but I do think this change will make park rangers' jobs more difficult. I also think that one consequence of the change in the law will be an increase in the number of people bringing guns into the parks illegally.

Also, to take a step back and look at the bigger picture: I worry about these lame-duck executive-branch orders, and about the degree to which management of public lands sways in the political winds, depending on who happens to be leaving office. (See also the BLM oil leasing thing in Utah TomD brought up a few weeks ago).

I happen to be opposed to most of the policies pushed by the Bush administration, but I think the principle here is bigger than that. Stewardship requires long-term thinking, and it's difficult to make that happen when you get these kind of end-run rule changes.

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#107579 - 12/06/08 09:48 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: azcanyon]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Whatever your stance on the second amendment, most reasonable people would agree that there are some places where guns shouldn't be allowed. I happen to think national parks are among those places.


There are plenty of places where guns/knives aren't allowed and punishable by severe fines. However, outlaws don't care about those laws.
I'd have to respectfully disagree regarding national parks. I hike and camp along the Texas border with Mexico down in Big Bend Nt'l park. I have seen drug planes fly below me, while watching from a hill top, and bandits/drug mules along the border are no secret. The ability to be armed seems reasonable. Down there, when seconds count, help is days away. Maybe 'some' national parks?
(everybody has probably read about the drug trade blood bath going on in Mexico. hand guns are illegal there. you can't legislate morality.)
_________________________
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#107580 - 12/07/08 12:27 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Dryer]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:

I'd have to respectfully disagree regarding national parks. I hike and camp along the Texas border with Mexico down in Big Bend Nt'l park. I have seen drug planes fly below me, while watching from a hill top, and bandits/drug mules along the border are no secret. The ability to be armed seems reasonable.


I'd be inclined to agree with you. the only reason I'd think you need it is for people.
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#107581 - 12/07/08 06:43 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Bearpaw]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
Of course, this won't change any one's opinion, so I'll leave it at that and bow out of this debate.


And it's a smart thing to do. Remember that Jim S. said you are being watched. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#107582 - 12/07/08 08:52 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: chaz]
scottmphoto Offline
member

Registered: 08/18/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Russellville, Arkansas, USA
I am a gun owner and I sometimes take a gun into the woods with me. Most of the problems with the human animal occur within a short distance of the trailhead as those that cause trouble usually don't travel far from the comfort of their vehicle. I have never had need of a gun in the outback so it just depends on the location that I am going into if I carry a gun or not. I was in the military for 11-years, I have a NATO-Secret security clearance, I was a licensed security officer for two years, a volunteer fireman for @ two years, I am an Eagle Scout and a Vigil Honor member of the Order of the Arrow...and currently a Scoutmaster. I have been handling guns almost all of my life but I know many people with qualifications the same, or even better than mine that SHOULD NOT have a gun.
I fully believe in the Second Amendment and I feel that I have a right to carry a gun...I earned it. Plus, so many people before me gave up their lives so that I have the right. There are just some times and places that a gun isn't needed, but I AM the one who should be able to make THAT DECISION for MYSELF.
_________________________
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Photographer -
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Eagle Scout - BSA /
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#107583 - 12/07/08 10:18 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: scottmphoto]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
it is a sad statement about our world when guns are being considered as protection from 2 legged as apposed to 4 legged creatures

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#107584 - 12/07/08 07:52 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: northernbcr]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
it is a sad statement about our world when guns are being considered as protection from 2 legged as apposed to 4 legged creatures


Why? I personally would only ever bother carrying for very dangerous situations. If I'm not likely to face *another* gun, then frankly, I'm better off with bear spray, even with bears - it's lighter, and will stop stuff. to be honest in 10 years of carrying it, I've only had it out of the holster once, and that was a two legged encounter. Now, heaven forbid that prior to that a handgun ever made trips into willmore with me, that would be illegal in canada. if it did it would be spending it's time weighting my backpack down, and not be that effective against a bear without a good head shot. legal or not, I'd still carry what I carry now
most places.

So frankly, untill the right to keep and arm bears gives me the possibility of facing grizzlys packing glocks, I'll stick to bear spray for the four legged critters - (unless I'm looking to eat 'em). OTOH if I'm somewhere
there's enough illegal activity I'm potentially faced with a gun - yep, I'd take one. My other exception on this continent is polar bears, but then I'll be packing a rifle. thanks.
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#107585 - 12/07/08 09:11 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: phat]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
phat i do realize that a pistol is ilegal for us and do not advocate carring one ,besides there are not many that are useful against a bear they do not have the stoping power for large boar grizzly. if you are hiking in a group and everyone is carrieng spray you have good odds. however you only have about 6 seconds of spray time with the large can and in the case of predacious black bears they are wel documented as repeatidly trying to attack after being sprayed repeatidly.so if by chance you get caught alone then1 can may not be enough. the times i am out with a group we all carry spray , but out by yourself there is the time to think about a rifle as well as spray, the proper firearm to carry in this situation is a 12ga pump with 1.25oz slugs. nothing else . this is about how it breaks down for a solo hiker. a proper gun with acompetent shooter sucess is about95%, bear spray about 70% and no defenceabout45%. the odds are not good that you will ever need your defence system but every year there are attacks and deaths. the trend is also on the rise as we are over protecting our bears and they are loosing there fear of man. this along with a steadily rising population of bears and less hunters with less open seasons is changing the bear man dynamics in a way that most people are not aware of

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#107586 - 12/08/08 08:42 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Fets]
SloHiker Offline
member

Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 46
Loc: NC
Well, it's about time. But, it still amazes we when the Federal government does something that makes sense - I've grown too cynical, I suppose.

All the fear mongers will be wrong about this provision being a "problem" - just like they're wrong on every other gun issue.

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#107587 - 12/08/08 11:27 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: SloHiker]
CCH Offline
member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 124
Loc: Colorado
As to legislation, it's an old but logical argument. Those who are willing to murder, rape and rob are generally willing to violate gun laws. Those who are willing to go through the process of getting a concealed carry permit are unlikely to be the ones who will use them illegally. Why bother? Here in Colorado we heard the same argument about reviving the "Old West" and gun battles in the streets, road rage shootings, etc. when the shall issue concealed carry permit law was in debate. We have not seen those results. Many of those who voiced their concerns were ignorant of existing laws. When so many were concerned about increased road rage violence, they were blissfully unaware that it was already legal to carry a loaded handgun in your car in Colorado.

Yellowstone has developed a pretty large jail and has a very high per capita crime rate. Lots of drug use, theft, etc. As was mentioned, many of our border parks have issues with drug trafficking. There are reasons to carry if you so choose and you can debate the merit of them until the cows come home, but if you choose not to, don't be afraid of those who legally do so. They aren't out to "get you" or anyone else. Big difference between offense and defense.

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#108386 - 12/28/08 02:12 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Pika]
billk Offline
member

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 1196
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By Pika
I don't like the idea very much myself.


Neither do I.

Originally Posted By Pika
I think that the effort required to get a CCW and the sobering lectures on criminal and civil liability surrounding use of a concealed weapon will ensure a reasonably high standard of responsible behavior.


Only at first, I think. I'm guessing that the effect of those lectures (and training) are long gone after a few years. I'm aquainted with several people who probably shouldn't carry a gun, but have permits.

I suspect the only tangible result of allowing people to carry guns in national parks is that a few bears will be killed needlessly.

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#108391 - 12/28/08 09:36 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: billk]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I suspect the only tangible result of allowing people to carry guns in national parks is that a few bears will be killed needlessly.

Your probably right. I sometimes carry but don't have a permit. I don't think that a permit makes you responsible. It's like driving. Many people can drive and have a license to do so. But, I'll only get in a car with certain people. I used to hunt and was raised around firearms and shot for sport and fun. So I think I have a reasonable respect for them. I've also had enough high performance driving schools to qualify to be a driving instructor. But I refused to teach driving because I refuse to get in a very fast car with a newbie. One fast mistake could be fatal. The limited training that someone not familier with firearms has to take to get a permit is in it self dangerous. A person wanting to get a permit and carry should have more experience and the verve and responsible attidude to posess such a dangerous tool. Yes, in the woods they might kill or mame an animal. In the jungle some call cities, they can get their piece taken from them or "accidentialy" shoot themselfs or loved ones.
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#108392 - 12/28/08 09:44 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Jimshaw]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
You would have to be insane to burglarize a home in central Oregon here in redneck and hunting country doncha know

Jim, you ain't in the only state that has red-necks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2syY12OPkwI
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#108399 - 12/28/08 02:50 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: chaz]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
"The limited training that someone not familiar with firearms has to take to get a permit is in it self dangerous."

What training? You misunderstand the license process. For the license, you learn about the law, take a shooting test, and written test, and wait several months for the process to conclude. You are expected to be proficient in safety and operation, prior to testing, which is made clear upon applying. The instructor will cull you out instantly if you make a mistake, shoot poorly, or violate a safety rule. You'll be culled out later if your background checks have a glitch. Those with no shooting experience are expected to take a relevant firearms course prior to applying for a CCL.

I personally don't expect any more wildlife getting shot now, then before the law change. Citizens have been carrying guns in parks since parks were parks.
_________________________
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#108468 - 12/29/08 09:29 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Rick_D]
jasonb Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 8
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By Rick_D
I don't get how a piece of paper makes a person safer?


Do you think a badge does?

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#108632 - 01/01/09 11:01 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Fets]
Gadgetech Offline


Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 19
Loc: Upstate, SC
I am a firm believer that if you take guns out of law abiding citizens, then the only people with them (gov't not incl) will be people of ill intent. I took a CWP course b/c I wanted to be law abiding and know the law. The law was revised previous to this in SC for CWP holders to carry in state parks...and I do in some cases. Point being, that anyone who might be shooting someone just b/c there was too much noise or other overly exaggerated thought would most likely not be a CWP holder anyway.

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#110142 - 01/27/09 02:14 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Gadgetech]
Lupine Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Pacific Northwest
I'm quite pleased by the new policies. I happen to have a CHL, and I do carry regularly.

I've been an outdoorswoman my entire life, and have had a bad encounter while fishing on one of our local rivers. I've also had bad encounters in so-called "good" neighborhoods.

While I doubt I'd carry a firearm on, say, the PCT, I appreciate the option on other trails. Here in Oregon (as in many other states) there are enough backwoods illegal pot gardens supervised by armed Mexi gangs (really! Not making this up!) that it would make me feel a bit better about my safety and that of my backpacking party.

Enough have already posted about the law-abiding nature and overall good track record of CHL holders, so I'll leave that alone...except to add that it's an extremely low percentage of CHL holders who have used deadly force to protect property, as opposed to life--though some would argue that the theft of a car or a burgled house is akin to stealing all the hours one had to work to pay for those things.

After my fishing experience, one friend told me I had no business hiking or fishing alone. This really bothered me, as I'm sure it would bother many of you here who like to solo. I like having the option for concealed carry.

By the way--concealed is preferable to open carry, at least in my case, because a) it's nobody's business whether or not I have a gun, unless that nobody is planning something nefarious against me, and b) because of the misinformation about firearms and responsible firearm ownership, people who carry openly are viewed in an unwelcome manner.

I strongly believe, mexi-mafia or no, that the farther down the trail one goes, the less likely one needs a handgun. But since the topic here is National Parks, I should mention that I happened to be in Yosemite with a female photography buddy the same winter weekend Joie Armstrong was violently and randomly murdered, about 10 years ago. Our next stop on our trip took us within 1/2 mile of the location where two of the women he'd previously murdered were burned in their car.

Knowing now what I didn't know then, I'm glad my friend broke the law and brought along her concealed handgun (for which she was licensed in her home state).

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#110927 - 02/09/09 01:51 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Lupine]
Usingmyrights Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 4
Loc: SE
There's been some problems at one of the national forrest here in FL, where people have been robbed, raped and/or killed. This gives the decent people a fighting chance. As mentioned only people with a permit will be allowed to do so. Granted every state is different when it comes to issuing permits, you do have to pass a background check, and at in most states demonstate your ability to safely handle a firearm. This will not cause more accidents, but will give people the oppritunity to protect themselves agaisnt both four legged and two legged critters. For the record, I don't believe in the senseless killing of wildlife, but if its between that wild hog, bear, panther, etc or me, I'm going to do whatever I need to do to come out of the woods the same way I went in.

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