I gotta agree. I didn't read much past the no tarp rule. I don't even know where this Philmont is. I just assumed it to be another park someplace. I didn't know it was some sort of concentration camp gestapoland to keep scouts from learning how to be scouts. LOL

Can we start a new thread for anywhere but philmont?

Sounds like the jamborees we had up here - which yes, they were a memorable adventure and they were fun, but they had almost nothing to do with backpacking - they were closer to good car camping, or hiking up to furnished huts.

I'm not saying jamboree type activities aren't fun. I'm saying they arnen't backpacking. and unfortunately, gearing ones backpacking gear toward attending jamboree type events has negative consequences for every other type of backpacking - which is what most of the rest of us do.

I agree that Jamborees are fun, but they aren't real scouting. Clearly scouting isn't real scouting.


I think we have to decide whether this thread is about the way scouting should be, or the way scouting is. I think it should be about the way scouting should be, because that is what scouting should be for, to teach kids what scouting could be, and should be, not what it is. Adult troop leaders and some of the larger scouts could still carry some special emergency stuff, such as communications and extra first aid stuff and perhaps some troop level camp and kitchen stuff, but in principle there is no reason a scout and his buddy couldn't be equipped from the get go to learn how to hike and to be reasonably self-suffient. Shared items. Nothing really needs to be shared. Two scouts could share a hoochie by zipping two tarps together, like I did in basic training, but they would also be essentially self-sufficient. I seriously doubt that that is the way Scouting works in North America today, but we can start changing that right here by changing this thread.

Lets just forget about Philmont and Boy Scouts of America and start over.
Let's talk about equipping scouts the way they could be and should be.


Scouting for under $200 and under 15 pounds per scout should be just as easy as it is cheap.
We should all just agree that most of the obstacles are artificial because of post-modern consumerism.
Scouts and Guides should be a means to correct that problem in our society, not make things more difficult. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The way life should be, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=z9OoPyYGKdI

I don't think you really need to start over.. I just say, take the spirit of the place and pretend you weren't
constrained.. (since the OP didn't post what the philmont rules were for us clueless canuck's anyway, and I've never been much for following rules <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

let's see - recent trips.. here ya go - skyline. I went on this trail for the first time in 1982. My scout group wouldn't do it. I did it in "scout type gear" that I had leftover from scouts with three friends. The weather we had in 82 was similar to what you see with me doing this with my brother (not the best - rain, and note the snow under my hammock). My trip in '82 was "epic", not in a particularly good way. I've done this trail many times since and enjoy it. most importantly, I take almost exactly the same gear as I'm talking about.
so, have a peek through:

http://bofh.ucs.ualberta.ca/beck/pictures/skyline2008

we had snow, heavy rain, extremely heavy wind, and very cold mornings.

and notice in particular:
as cold as original specs:



and defineatly as rainy:



Heck, I was sheltering fellow hikers who had obviously learned from boy scouts to carry a giant tent (which was ok because I got to have 45 minutes of pleasant conversation with two young ladies
who sheltered under my tarp while I lounged in my hammock and their male friend who was too proud to ask for help set up their "bombproof" shelter in a storm.. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> nothing like a boy scout style tent and a little machismo to make you look like an idiot.)

I agree that it would be more generally useful if the OP changed destination to something other than Philmont.

However, in defense of Philmont, it is still a very special experience. Philmont is 137,493 acres (215 square miles) owned by the Boy Scouts of America. You are backpacking for between 50 and 100 miles ( depending on the trek you choose) over the Sangre de Cristo mountains in New Mexico, at altitudes from 6500 to 12,441 feet. A trek is one day at base camp, and 11 days and nights in the backcountry. Car camping it is NOT. There are no furnished (or unfurnished) huts. However, it is also not lightweight backpacking in the Rockies or Sierra. It is a unique experience.

Great photos phat. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Very nice rig Phat. I admit that I spent a lot more on my full pack-load than $200, but for less than that I have my tarp and hammock set-up solidly in place.

I've found that I am quite happy with a tarp used in condition with another bit of shelter, whether that be my hammock or my bivy sack. Teaching scouts to use a tarp early on can definitely cut weight, bulk, and likely cost as well, so long as they have solid knot skills, which all U. S. Scouts of 1st Class rank are supposed to have.

Very well said Don in both your posts. I would also add that the experience has a lot to do with learning to work together as a unit. Something that 14-16 year olds have a hard time doing sometimes. Approximately 360 Scouts/Adults arrive each day during the season (mid-June thru mid-August I believe) so this is about 21,600 Scouts/Adults per year, so they must be doing something right!

We had 5 Scouts and 2 adults in our crew (I would have made the 3rd adult, but had to pull out at the last minute due to medical reasons). We had two other crews of 8-9 people each.

Our crew members slept two to a tent and we took our own. Brand names included Eureka, Big Agnes, REI, and one other I can recall. We did this to save weight.

We took two Coleman Exponent stoves because I don't like messing with white gas. I own one and we borrowed another. Are these heavier than I would take if I were leading a trip on my own? Maybe. It depends on how many are going and where. We used a 4qt and a 6qt pot to cook in (used turkey bags to keep clean up to a minimum) and made our own lids for them. Lexan bowl and spoon to eat with. We probably could have gotten by with just one stove, but if there were a problem we'd have been S.O.L. and a long way back to base camp. Perhaps here would be where 3-4 alky stoves would have been a viable alternative. Having two Exponents though allowed dinner and clean up to be done much quicker. The other two crews used white gas to cook with.

Home made 8x12 black silnylon tarp to cook under and to store packs under (much lighter than the tarps provided). Mason braided nylon twine for guy-outs. Blue amsteel cord for hanging bear bags (much lighter than the rope provided). Made pot cozies for the cook pots to hold in the heat an not have to use as much gas to keep water warm.

I believe was I somewhat successful in teaching our crew the benefits of going light weight where we could and still follow the rules of Philmont. Will I continue to expand the knowledge of light weight backpacking to our new troop? Absolutely. We'll be working up to some longer hikes on the Ouachita Trail in Arkansas and we'll be using light weight gear.

Why? Did they say something to lead you to believe that? Maybe they "learned" it all on their very own!

Why do you make assumptions and generalizations that ALL Scouts don't know anything about light weight backpacking?

As has been said in other posts on this board, 90% of Scout camping is car camping, not backpacking. So, most parents spend their money on bomb proof equipment. And many troops provide the tents (3-4 man tents) so these aren't appropriate for backpacking.

I believe all of the "high adventure" bases (Philmont, Sea Base, BWCA - Norther Tier) have an age requirement of 14 so by then a youth has been in Scouts for 3 years. Hopefully by the beginning of their 3rd year they know whether they want to try out the high adventure programs and can start accumulating gear accordingly and they've learned how to take care of it.

The official BSA age requirement for Philmont is "At least age 14 by January 1 of the participation year or have completed the eight grade (and be at least 13 years of age) prior to attendance"

So discussion of 12 year olds may be appropriate for lightweight scout related backpacking, but 12 year olds are too young to attend Philmont.

This forum does an excellent job of discussing lightweight backpacking. If the OP or others are interested in the details of Philmont, which is a bit off the subject for this forum, you might join the Philmont list. Go to http://usscouts.org/ ,go to Discussion lists and forums, ussp e-mail lists, and subscribe to the Philmont list. They will send you a return message to which you must reply, and then you are signed up. Watch out- gmail placed this return message to me in my spam folder- so it took me awhile to find it and complete the subscription. As with many lists they have both newbies and old timers. The list is a bit slow at this time of year, but as summer approaches it is very busy and very useful for those going to Philmont.

I will leave it at this.

I guess I should do two things, either do a better job of explaining in the first post, or do a better job watching the discussion to help it go in the right direction. My bad. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Anyways, JAK here expresses my sentiments better than I could, so I am quoting him.

The purpose of this "challenge" isn't to actually take a troop to Philmont. Been there, done that. Philmont is used because we all say that we pick equipment for the climate. Alot of us know the Philmont climate. Well, I assumed so. Maybe I am wrong. But, it seemed like a good area because we are targeting scouts AND adult newbies. I thought about just saying 3 season alpine, but I thought that was too vague. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Would ANY 3 season location work? phat, how cold are your summers? We could make an "ultimate prepared for the worst" list, but that would be unnecessary. And, then again, it might not. Let me think out loud as the the intent I am thinking. I have been to other "non backpacking" sites for other outdoor pursuits. At one site, the price of admission (or gear you have to buy) is very steep, and this discourages newbies from participating. So, they have a "beginners setup" for a very good price (maybe half of the average minimum). The idea is to make entry much cheaper with the intent to buy better later when you decide you like it. On the other thread phat started (and which was subsequently hijacked) phat showed a $250 beginner kit. I thought "Wow, what about $200". For a parent with a new 12 year old, $200 is pretty steep. Especially if they don't know how long he will hang with it. It might not be steep for a newbie adult, but we could say "hey try this setup, if you like it, there is a better way, if not, you are only out $200". The problem with making a list like this, is location specific gear. Could we just hit the extremes? It might rain like in the PNW, or be dry like here in Utah. Daytime highs in the 100's and nighttime lows in the 20's. Maybe even throw in 100% humidity like in Houston.

Back to Philmont. I know that they have rules. And, they give you equipment if you want it. But most troops practice before they go, and so they have to bring their own stuff on the weekend, two night, overnights. This is why I didn't say "no tarps or hammocks". What are you going to use to practice before Philmont? It is also hard to figure personal gear when you don't know crew gear. So think of this as a solo trip with a group, BYOE (Bring Your Own Everything) but safety in numbers. There are things I like about scouting, and things I don't. I think we should follow JAK in "Let's talk about equipping scouts the way they could be and should be." So, let's just define a scout as a 12-18 year old boy who is going to grow and wants to go backpacking with his friends and a knowledgeable, responsible, adult.

To sum it up, I think we have had a great discussion, and I would hate to end it on a technicality. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Based on my own experience in scouts, and every overpacked mob of scouts I pass on trails (If *I* hike faster than you, you're carrying way too much!), However, you're very correct, I am overgeneralizing - mea culpa. For that I apologize. I presume there are some troops who can do a better job - definately sounds like from your posts that you are taking the crew you are working with in the right direction.

Those pics in my previous post were from mid July in the northern rockies. When I hit the mountains I basically have to be prepared for the temperature range you described - up to 25C or so in the day
and -5C at night.



I don't think it's that location specific. There's an awful wide range of backpacking you can do with that
kind of stuff. You need more water capacity in complete desert, and a hammock doens't work so good with
no trees.

I do think a lot of DIY is not necessarily the best for a beginner. A scout troop perhaps, as some can be
done as a project at a meeting, but a regular beginner who doesn't have the bug like us freaks is not necessarily going to invest the time in the bigger kind of DIY projects, so while a stove is maybe ok,
thinks like Rock's backpack or a quilt project. - while very good money savers take some time and
may not be something a beginner will want to invest the time into.

Someone explane to me what makes a tent more protection from bears than other sleeping setups?

I don't think bears have opposable thumbs. Can't work the zipper. Takes a few seconds longer for them to rip through the sides. Obviously, the camper can work the zipper and escape in those few seconds. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, too much caffiene this morning . . .

Lets just forget about Philmont and Boy Scouts of America and start over.
Let's talk about equipping scouts the way they could be and should be.

Totally agree. They can learn hardship when and if they ever join the service.
Teach em lightweight. And yes popcan stoves, alcy fuel, hammocks etc.......

Cudos to BPackerDon and Tango61 for their work in scouting.
Cudos for finallyME for the rules clarification.

$200, 20 pounds, 20degF, 12-18 years old.

So here again is my list. I'll be working on getting my daughter outfitted this way this winter. She is guides now, but I am hoping to keeping hiking and skiing with her in parallel with what she is doing in Guides, in a complementary way. Her troop doesn't do alot of outdoors stuff, but they do alot of other great stuff and it's enough for me that they are keeping the girls interested in outdoors activities including hiking and camping.

So this is what I'm currently working on.

Clothing:
Homemade Ankle Moccassins
Felt insoles
Thin Wool socks
Thick Wool socks
Long underwear bottoms
Light nylon rain bottoms
200wt fleece pants
Long underwear top
hand knit wool sweater (200wt fleece sweater until they get merit badge for knitting)
Light nylon rain top
wool mitts
wool hat
wool neck tube that can cover ears/nose/mouth/neck
troop uniform hat

Gear:
Homemade Triangular Wooden Ötzi the Iceman pack-frame
Large Nylon Stuff Sack for Pack (some kids just use their tarp)
Cord, pegs for tieing pack to frame, and for pitching their puptent
Blue foam sleeping pad
3 pound homemade bedroll (my kids like to call it a bedroll)
Sylnylon Tarp, with velcro seam, for 1/2 of puptent shared with buddy
Wooden Hiking staff - for pitching half of puptent, and striking cool poses
map
compass/whistle/thermometer
knife
matches or flint kit
buddy burner or hobo stove
stainless mug
stainless spoon (my kids ain't no gram weenies)
food for 3 days
water canteen
firstaid/repair kit
other stuff their scoutmaster forgot but they didn't

Special Winter Gear:
cross country skis/boots/poles, or homemade snow shoes
Her cross country ski gear alone will be $200, but I guess that's extra.

Some of the clothes she already has probably add up also, but its pretty rare that places have the right stuff in her size. Most was on sale though. I am fairly happy with the light nylon raingear from L.L.Beans. It's double what it needs to be but alot lighter than the other stuff they and other places carry for rain and snow. This is the rain gear she carries on hikes as rain, wind, snow layer. It reasonably packable, and spends most of the time there. She has a really nice Alpaca wool sweater with hood and stomach pouch, which is her main layer this winter. It was expensive, can't remember how much, but it cost less that the heavy winter jackets most places would try and sell, and its alot warmer and lighter and less encumbering. So she wears wool sweater and fleece pants, like her old man. Working on the other stuff. Her non-clothing stuff will be under $200 for sure though, except for the cross-country skis. Hey, maybe Santa will bring those. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The issue is based off a study from several years of North American Bear Attacks. Statistically speaking, from the reported episodes of bears attacking sleepers, those in a tent are somewhat less likely to be attacked than those under a tarp or out in the open.

Whether food or unfamiliar odors played a part aren't factored in. But Philmont puts on a hard press for scouts to control those odors in any case. The findings are enough that Philmont errs on the side of caution.

On NOLS courses in the Absarokas, (Grizzly kingdom of the lower 48), we were also required to sleep only in tents for this same reason. NOLS has had only one bear attack on a sleeping human since the school opened in 1965. It was 2003 in Utah, on a young man sleeping in the open. (Who BTW had freshly salted dreadlocks...)

Sigh. gotta love psuedoscience via one factor statistics. the same sort of "science" that used to be used to tell us coloured people were dumber than whites because of test scores.. While I imagine it depends a great deal on the bears, I'd love to see similar statistics for how many people rigged a tarp over a cooking area then slept under it - because the weather was so fine.. exactly the way I see tarps used in many camps.

For an adult with a very small child, like when I hike with Margaret, up to 50 pounds and 48" tall say, I think it is comforting for both her and myself to have a tent because I know she is not going anywhere without me knowing about it. I wonder also, in the case of non-predatory Black Bears as we have here in New Brunswick, if even a friendly Black Bear nosing about might find a small child sleeping under a tarp just a little too tempting. We have lots of bears here, like 1 per 2 square miles, and no recorded fatalities in New Brunswick, which I still find hard to believe, but we don't have alot of statistics on small children sleeping in remote areas under tarps. So until she is bigger I have opted for a tent with me in it with her. Now she is getting big enough, I think, for being under a tarp next to me. We'll see what she thinks. Safe enough in winter though, with bears asleep. There are still Eastern Coyotes, which you never know when you hear them whether they might be coy dogs or feral dogs. Anyhow, generally speaking for across North America I think for scouts 2 man pup tents open on each end or perhaps with flaps should be just fine, as you could always put them in a tight formation and post sentries, and all the usual precautions regarding bears and food. Good way to build some character. Get them realizing at a young age that the risks are small, but real, but manageable. Now I can't speak for out west, or even up in Ontario and Quebec, but I don't see much difference between 2 man tents and 2 man tarps.


I think there would be a great benefit to Scouts however, if they all went back to a tradition of hiking with homemade hiking staves, and using them to pitch a tarp with their buddy, that required them to cut some jute twine with their knives and and tie a few knots and stake out the four corners out and the 2 ends just so. Even bears would have to show some respect for a well turned out hootchie. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />



Maybe each half could have a hood also, but they would still need rain gear. I just recall there was a way to sit back to back with these tarps to stop in heavy rain for a meal in these type of tarps without pitching them.

Ok, in the spirit, though not within the rules and kind of for
comparison, what about the weekend type lightweight trip, temps
above freezing, but NO DIY, No internet purchases, just have to buy
it. what if you just had to walk into the box store and buy it all -
relatively light, and keeping the cost down.

Here's what I got on the "walk into MEC" and gear thyself bit. Since this is already outside
the original scope, weights are in grams, and prices in canadian dollars <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

---------------

MEC Alpinelite 30 pack
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228674615562
680 grams $54

Mec down barrel bag
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228674862789
1200 grams $114

blue foam pad (2 for hammock use)
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228674985708
440 grams $25.00

Hennesey Hammock
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228675197541
1200 grams $139

GSI solo cookset
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228675531470
269 grams $26

MSR pocket rocket
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228675550619
85 grams $38

Lexan spoon (not online, but they're in store)
10 gram $0.50

Opinel knife
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228675807298
36 grams $14.75

Petzl E-lite
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...845524442621007
27 grams $26.00

Water purification
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228675985481
17 grams $8.75

First Aid
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228676090680
85 grams $7.25

--------------------

4049 grams $453.25

+ 2 pop bottles for water.
+ clothing
+ runners/hikingshoes/boots
+ food + water + fuel

Good stuff phat. Still very light, and not too extravangant. I like the doubling up of the blue foam pads. Lets them carry a big pack and still be light. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I gotta try the hammock thing some day. Maybe hoist the daughter up out of boy scout reach when she gets a little older. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually that's a very small pack - 30 litres - I know it works with that gear though, because I've carried basically the same.

the second blue pad actually gets hacked in half to make a pad that's cross shaped with the arms of the cross around your butt an love handles in the hammock for warmth.. Both roll up and are carried on the outside of that pack, strapped vertically.

You could of course, spend more, and get a bigger, and heavier, pack at MEC - but I've done up to 5 night
outings with that one.

I don't have time right now to put together a list. In the past, I have been doing this with adult who had a bit more budget. There have been similar challenges in the past, though most were shooting for lighter weight, and weren't saddled with Philmont restrictions (like must bring a tent rather than a tarp). I collected a few notes on a page about backpacking for cheap.

Mark,

I generally refer people to your webb site. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I did a spreadsheet on a similar challenge long ago, but it is difficult to keep updated. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I lost interest in this thread when the Philmont rules were added. I need a better reason than "rules" to leave my hammock and alcohol stove behind.

Thank you for keeping your site updated. I know how much work it is and I appreciate it.