My name is Ethan Greer, and I am from the Engineering Design and Development class at Union-Endicott High School in Upstate New York. As part of this class, my partner Spencer Scott and I are developing a portable food cooker and warmer which will be easily transportable, reusable, and durable enough for camping and backpacking. The device will also be safe to use indoors and in a tent. I am currently conducting a product requirements survey to help determine additional requirements of this device. I'm hoping to get feedback for backpackers such as those here.
Please feel free to contact me at any time with any questions you may have regarding this project, or suggestions for this product. My contact information can be found below.
--BEGIN SURVEY--
I've edited this slightly from the origional post after reading responses.
1. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most satisfied, how satisfied would you say you are with the current range of products designed to allow one to heat and cook food while camping or backpacking? 4 3 2 1 0
2. Out of the following options, would you say the combustion used by traditional camp/backpack stoves, and the associated smoke, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide is… ____ Always a problem ____ Occasionally a problem, but more often a problem than not ____ No opinion, or neutral opinion ____ Usually not a problem ____ Never a problem
3. Out of the following options, how would well would you say current camp/backpack stoves serve their intended purpose? ____ Extremely poorly ____ Somewhat poorly ____ Neutral ____ Somewhat well ____ Extremely well
4. What's the most you would be willing to spend on a backpacking stove? ____ $10-20 ____ $20-30 ____ $30-40 ____ $40-50 ____ $50-60 ____ $60-70 ____ $70-80 ____ $80-90 ____ $100+
5. What is the maximum weight you would consider tolerable for a backpack stove? _________________ ounces (without fuel) _________________ ounces (with fuel)
6. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you typically use your camp or backpack stove? _______________ times
7. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you expect to have to go to a store to purchase more supplies? _______________ times
8. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most valuable, how valuable would the ability to easily use a camp or backpack stove in the rain, wet conditions, indoors or in a tent, or in high winds be to you? 4 3 2 1 0
In the process of developing this product, I may be interested in further feedback from those knowledgeable in the field of camping and backpacking, such as you. If it would be alright for me to contact you in the future regarding this project, please let me know.
Thanks you again for your time. Please feel free to contact me at any time with any questions you may have about this project. My contact information is as follows:
Paper Mail, please send to: Dr. Timothy Netwon c/o: Union-Endicott High School 1200 East Main Street Endicott, NY 13760
1. 4 2. Never (or very close to never) 3. Extremely well 4. Yes (that's what I paid for my white-gas stove, that I don't intend to replace. To get me to replace a stove I already have, $30 - $50 would be a better range of what I'd be willing to spend. My most-frequently-used stove cost $40.) 5. "Pounds" - you're kidding, right? 3 to 4 ounces would be more like it (that doesn't include the weight of the fuel.) That white-gas stove I mentioned above weighs 12 ounces, excluding the fuel bottle and fuel, and because it weighs so much, it only gets used when it's too cold for my canister stove to function. The canister stove weighs about 4 ounces, excluding the compressed-gas canister. 6. Twice a day (typical weekend trip: 4 or 5 times.) 7. None. On a trip of less than a week, I don't expect to stop at a store or otherwise resupply at all. 8. 4, for rain, wind, or wet conditions. 0, for in a tent. My tent is far too important to my overall well-being to even risk cooking inside it (if it catches fire, or even if it "only" gets a hole melted in it, I'm screwed - it won't keep me reliably dry any more.) Even if a stove claimed, validly, to be safe for in-tent use, I wouldn't do it. Indoors isn't really applicable to backpacking.
1- 4, most satisfied 2- Never a problem 3- Extremely well 4- No, especially when one can make other stoves for free and serve the purpose just as well 5- Maximum weight tolerable? I’d say something like a Simmerlite, which by the website is 8.5 oz. The stoves I most frequently use are <1 oz. 6- 1.5 times/day; Half the time I eat two dinners at supper 7- Zero times 8- I have the same feelings as Glenn on this. Uber important (4) to easily use in wind, rain, wet. And not important (0) to be used inside. If it was really so bad I couldn’t cook outside, I’ve got options. Eat tomorrow’s breakfast or lunch; eat today’s supper cold; not eat at all.
finallyME
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Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Here are my answers. Good luck reinventing the wheel. Just remember that it is really easy to design something that is worse off from where you started. I saw this many times in college.
1. 4
2. Out of the following options, would you say the combustion used by traditional camp/backpack stoves, and the associated smoke, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide is… ____ Usually not a problem
3. Out of the following options, how would well would you say current camp/backpack stoves serve their intended purpose? ____ Extremely well
4. Would you be willing to spend $80-$100 on a backpack stove? ____ No
5. What is the maximum weight you would consider tolerable for a backpack stove? 5 or 6 OZ (that is ounces NOT pounds)
6. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you typically use your camp or backpack stove? 1-2 times a day
7. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you expect to have to go to a store to purchase more supplies? 0 times
8. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most valuable, how valuable would the ability to easily use a camp or backpack stove in the rain, wet conditions, indoors or in a tent, or in high winds be to you? 4 Without the indoor stuff. If I was indoors, then I wouldn't be backpacking. If I have to, I cook under a tarp.
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Franco
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Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: Australia
Ethan Let me start by first pointing out that many here don't cook food, we just boil water and re-hydrate... My "kitchen" stove,stand/windscreen,fuel container and pot is under 6 oz but that is considered heavy by some But of course some use 6 lbs Trangia systems .
1) 3 2) never a problem 3) somewhat well 4) yes 5) 3-5 oz ( for a winter stove, otherwise 1 oz for 1-3 days /alcohol or 3oz for gas on longer trips) 6) 3 times a day . 4 in cold weather ( cup of hot chocolate before bed) 7) never done more than 7 days walks but on a long trail I would expect every 5-7 days 8) 4
Hey Ethan, I am a graduate student in Mechanical Engineering at UNB Saint John. I love backpacking and backpacking stoves, and the people that mess with them. Interesting specifications for your project. Interesting survey also. Here are my answers.
1. 2 Some I would give a 3, even 4, most I would give a 2 or less. 2. Usually not a problem 3. Somewhat well 4. No 5. Depends on other factors. Total weight of kitchen/fuel/gear. 6. Several times a day as it is a woodburner and so I can take further advantage with more hot drinks, hot water for sanitizing, laundry, ablutions. 7. once per week 8. rain = 4 wet conditions = 4 indoors or in a tent = 3 high winds = 4
Hope that helps.
I am mostly a user of a Kelly Kettle and Hobbo Stove. I would probably use a homemade alcohol stove as an alternative. I would probably use a canister stove only for high altitudes, for sustainability reasons. I use a poncho/tarp, and fiddle with oil lamps and candle lanterns for simmering tea and reading.
Sustainability is very important to me. You might consider adding that to your specifications.
You didn't ask what kind of fuel we would prefer in our stoves. Like many others, I'd prefer alcohol; however, I haven't found an alcohol burner I like better than my canister stove (they're either heavier, or perform poorly in wind or cold weather.) So, I hike on with my canister stove and hope for nirvana.
finallyME
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Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
I am a graduate student in Mechanical Engineering at UNB Saint John.
I knew there was a reason I like you. You pick good fields to study. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 679
Loc: Central Texas
1. 3 2. usually not a problem 3. extremely well 4. no - unless it was perfect 5. 3 ounces - which is heavier than ANY of my current stoves, regardless of fuel. 6. twice a day, minimum 7. once a week on thru-hikes. Never on shorter excursions. 8. too many questions mashed together here: wind, rain, cold should not prevent cooking, so that's a 4. I almost never use a tent. When I do, cooking inside would be a pleasant change - unless I am in bear country. Then cooking inside is not an issue of killing yourself with carbon monoxide, it is an issue of the bear doing if for you. So that's a big 0.
1. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most satisfied, how satisfied would you say you are with the current range of products designed to allow one to heat and cook food while camping or backpacking? 4 - I don't cook out there unless it's car camping or something realllllly special tasty good. I boil water.
2. Out of the following options, would you say the combustion used by traditional camp/backpack stoves, and the associated smoke, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide is… Never a problem, if you follow instructions and common sense. None of my stoves smoke, btw.
3. Out of the following options, how would well would you say current camp/backpack stoves serve their intended purpose? Extremely well, depending on your purpose. You want cooking you get the right stove and you're happy. You want just a water boiler, there are lots of options for that too.
4. Would you be willing to spend $80-$100 on a backpack stove? H#!! no. I spent almost forty on my canister stove and half that on my White Box, and I have no reason to spend anything more.
5. What is the maximum weight you would consider tolerable for a backpack stove? 3 ozs. Two of my three stoves weigh less than an ounce.
6. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you typically use your camp or backpack stove? 5-8 times
7. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you expect to have to go to a store to purchase more supplies? not at all. I don't hike for weeks on end.
8. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most valuable, how valuable would the ability to easily use a camp or backpack stove in the rain, wet conditions, indoors or in a tent, or in high winds be to you? 4 - but my current stoves, with proper prep, are useful outside in the wind. A few boulders, a tree stump, a windscreen... I don't use a tent or camp indoors so this does not apply, however, I have done test runs with my canister and alcohol stoves on my electric range in the kitchen without issues, so I already have that too.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki
I am a graduate student in Mechanical Engineering at UNB Saint John.
I knew there was a reason I like you. You pick good fields to study. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I was a grad student in Mechanical Engineering once upon a time (like a quarter century ago)...
OregonMouse
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Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Quote:
1. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most satisfied, how satisfied would you say you are with the current range of products designed to allow one to heat and cook food while camping or backpacking? 4 3 2 1 0 2. Out of the following options, would you say the combustion used by traditional camp/backpack stoves, and the associated smoke, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide is… ____ Always a problem ____ Occasionally a problem, but more often a problem than not ____ No opinion, or neutral opinion ____ Usually not a problem ____ Never a problem 3. Out of the following options, how would well would you say current camp/backpack stoves serve their intended purpose? ____ Extremely poorly ____ Somewhat poorly ____ Neutral ____ Somewhat well ____ Extremely well 4. Would you be willing to spend $80-$100 on a backpack stove? ____ Yes ____ No 5. What is the maximum weight you would consider tolerable for a backpack stove? _________________ lbs 6. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you typically use your camp or backpack stove? _______________ times 7. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you expect to have to go to a store to purchase more supplies? _______________ times 8. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most valuable, how valuable would the ability to easily use a camp or backpack stove in the rain, wet conditions, indoors or in a tent, or in high winds be to you? 4 3 2 1 0
1. 4 2. Never--I never use it inside a tent or other enclosed, unventilated area (see #8) 3. Extremely well 4. Absolutely not. My current stove (Primus Micron with piezo lighter) was on sale for $35. 5. 3 OUNCES, not pounds, without fuel. With fuel, 11 ounces for 9 days. 6. Once daily, only to bring water to a boil to rehydrate a home-dried dinner. I do not cook but pour the boiling water over the food in a plastic bag, stir and keep the plastic bag in a "cozy" for 10-15 minutes. On rare occasions, I may heat just enough water for a cup of tea in the morning, but I normally eat a cold breakfast. 7. Can go for 9 days without resupply; have never done a trip longer than that 8. 0 My current stove will function just fine in these conditions if I put it behind rocks, logs or my pack and keep the pot on top. I would never use a stove in a tent--my tent is not fireproof. I also occasionally backpack in bear country so want no food odors in my tent. I have occasionally used my stove indoors during power outages, with windows cracked open at both ends of the kitchen for cross-ventilation. A small, very light (no more than 0.3 oz.) windscreen that would fit around just the burner of a canister stove (to shelter the flame but not transfer heat to the canister) would be a nice thing to have.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
>1. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most satisfied, how satisfied would you say >you are with the current range of products designed to allow one to heat and cook food >while >camping/backpacking
3 - they mostly work great. but when backpacking I am mostly boiling water. in wintertime I cook a bit more and use a more serious stove. some could simmer a bit better.
>2. Out of the following options, would you say the combustion used by traditional >camp/backpack stoves, and the associated smoke, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide >is…
Never a problem
> Out of the following options, how would well would you say current camp/backpack >stoves serve their intended purpose?
Well
>4. Would you be willing to spend $80-$100 on a backpack stove? Nope. I think the most I've ever spent is about $50. >5. What is the maximum weight you would consider tolerable for a backpack stove? less than an ounce usually. - I typically mesure in grams, because I carry an alcohol stove other than in winter and only boil water.
>6. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you typically >use your camp or backpack stove? Depends on the lenght of the trip now don't it. typically once in the morning and once at night. sometimes less.
>7. While on an average camping or backpacking trip, how many times do you expect to >have to go to a store to purchase more supplies?
never, but I would if I thru hiked anything big. I'm typically out for less than a week and a half, and carry everything with me.
>8. On a scale of 4 to 0, with 4 being the most valuable, how valuable would the ability >to easily use a camp or backpack stove in the rain, wet conditions, indoors or in a tent, >or in high winds be to you?
about a 2 - i rarely do in a tent, only in winter in my dedicated winter tent, since any other time it is inviting bear or other critter problems. I don't cook or eat anywhere near my spring-fall shelters. Never had problems in the rain with anything else I use.
>In the process of developing this product, I may be interested in further feedback from >those knowledgeable in the field of camping and backpacking, such as you. If it would >be alright for me to contact you in the future regarding this project, please let me know.
Yep.
FWIW I most of the time use a "penny alcohol stove" (use google) made from beer cans. weighs very very little. I occasionally use a snow peak gigapower canister stove.
In winter I use a SVEA 123 or MSR whisperite. I also own an old MSR XGK that is used only for a hunting camp that burns kerosene.
I am a graduate student in Mechanical Engineering at UNB Saint John.
I knew there was a reason I like you. You pick good fields to study. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I was a grad student in Mechanical Engineering once upon a time (like a quarter century ago)...
Lets just hope I'm not still be a grad student a quarter century from now. LOL
JAK: I assume you know the difference between a civil engineer and a mechanical engineer, don't you? (A mechanical engineer builds weapons; a civil engineer builds targets.) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Actually, you have picked a very difficult, rewarding, and challenging field of study. Most of the engineers I know are incredibly bright folks. Good luck.
finallyME
member
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
JAK: I assume you know the difference between a civil engineer and a mechanical engineer, don't you? (A mechanical engineer builds weapons; a civil engineer builds targets.) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I heard that a long time ago and like to repeat it many times to my Civil Engineer Uncle. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.
It is fun, isn't it? My partner did a tour in the Navy, I did a tour in Air Force. I love to ask him the difference between a ship and a boat (for Navy types, it's a big deal) and then, after he explains it to me (again), say, "Huh. In the Air Force, we just called them all targets." and walk away chuckling. The classics never go out of style...
Before I begin my stoves are: SVEA 123 (white gas) MSR Dragonfly (multifuel) mainly for winter camping MSR Wind Pro (canister gas) Vargo JetTi (canister gas) Vargo Triad (alcohol or ESBIT tablets)
BEGIN SURVEY 1.) 4 2.) Usually not a problem 3.) Extremely well 4.) Yes, I already have for the MSR Dragonfly 5.) one lb. 6.) 12 times/trip 7.) None 8.) 4
Good luck on your project. Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."
Our idea is for a flame-less stove, so it will produce no emissions and no (or at least much less of a possibility) of catching a tent on fire or putting a whole in it.
We do not plan to use any kind of conventional fuel (no alchoal, gas, etc).
Our intention is to design a stove that will have no combustion. This means nothing in it will burn. The idea is to eliminate any possibility for catching anything on fire.
After hearing everyone's responses, sustainability will probably be a key design feature.
Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
If it hasn't already been mentioned, be aware that the answers you are getting here are from the lightweight backpacking crowd, which make up a small minority of people that backpack (defined as carrying a backpack on a hike with the intent to primitively camp overnight). You may get different answers if you post this on a site for more "traditional" backpackers.
Now on to my answers: 1. 4 2. Usually not a problem 3. Extremely well 4. Depends on the stove...I am gear head and would consider paying a decent amount of cash for something innovative 5. 8 oz without fuel 6. Twice a day 7. 0 8. 1...my current stoves work fine in the rain or wet conditions, and I don't need to use it indoors or in my tent (although that's a cool idea)
Just a little background to help you out on my answers. I am more of a "traditional" backpacker in that I carry 25 - 35 lbs (total) depending on the season. I have a white gas stove, and don't use it due to weight. I normally use a canister stove, and sometimes experiment with homemade alcohol stoves. I also have a wood burning stove I have yet to test in the field. I typically cook under a shelter (tarp) if it is raining, and I use a homemade wind shield if it is windy (not a big deal in the SE due to the dense vegetation). As previously mentioned I am a gear head and have been known to buy stuff just to try it out with the intent to make it part of my normal gear that I carry should it be an improvement over the existing item (i.e. I tried the MSR Hyperflow out cause I like the simplicity of filters, but am not crazy about any of the ones I currently use...I'm now researching Steripens).
If it generates heat, it's not going in my tent. The stove itself may not get hot, but it will heat up the pot - and a hot pot will melt a hole in a tent. (Like others, this applies to a tent, not a tarp. If I'm using a tarp - which I don't seem to do much anymore - and it has a high roof, I might occasionally use a non-flaring stove under it. On the whole, though, I prefer to cook outside due to safety and odor considerations.)
If there is no combustion is there chemical reaction?
FYI: There are self contained chemistry-driven self heating meals already available - I've seen other people carry them. They are heavy and difficult to work with because all trash needs to fit in a bear can, and the used plastic tray has the chemicals nested between layers of plastic, making it difficult to smash down to fit in a ziploc with other trash. People in our group tried to share a bear can and had the issue of not wanting to leak chemicals on the ground, not knowing what damage they would do.
If you are wanting to produce something backpackers can use and leave no trace, remember that storage in a loaded pack or bear canister is going to be a deciding factor. There are plenty of useful gadgets I won't take because use is limited by packability, ie. durability, special storage needs, or just the weight of it.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki
finallyME
member
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Just remember that when you do your heat transfer to figure the amount of energy you need to get into the water, you need to use a lower beginning water temperature than room temp. A mountain stream has pretty cold water so I would use 0C as your water temp, not 25C.
Boy, using chemicals would require the right reaction without toxic fumes as a side effect. If it is electrically powered, then your power source needs to be light. Get all of that under 6 OZ and you should be good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.
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