#105179 - 10/20/0803:47 PMCarbon Fiber Trekking Poles--boon or hazard?
OregonMouse
member
Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I have done searches here and elsewhere and haven't found a lot of reassurance one way or another on the safety of carbon fiber trekking poles.
I'm looking for lighter poles. The ones I have now (Leki Makalu Ti) weigh 18.8 ounces. They are excellent poles, and I'll continue to use them for exercise walking and dayhiking, but I'd like to cut the weight for backpacking. I'm therefore looking at carbon fiber.
I have, however, read a number of tales about carbon fiber poles breaking. I use my trekking poles really hard. I rely on them to maintain my balance on rough terrain and to save my bum knee on downhills. The poles have saved me from a number of what could have been quite serious falls. I'm scared that if I go to carbon fiber poles I'm setting myself up for a possible serious injury (fractures at my age [72] take a lot longer to heal).
I have looked at a number of models. They have to be adjustable, because the pole length I use for hiking is shorter than what I need for my shelters. They must have straps, because without straps my carpal tunnel syndrome starts acting up. With straps, I hardly need to hold the pole at all--all my weight is on the strap and my hand and wrist are quite relaxed. Eliminating the frequently-snapping REI/Komperdell carbon fiber poles, about which I've heard from Sarbar and others, here's what I've found:
Black Diamond--even their carbon fiber poles are as heavy as or heavier than the poles I have, so forget those. Very nice poles, but I'm not looking for increased weight. I also had trouble working the flicklock mechanism in the store with my small hands and fumble-fingers.
Leki--their carbon fiber poles are lighter but are guaranteed for only one year. (My current Leki poles have a lifetime guarantee.) This makes me suspicious right there--what happens the second year? There are Leki aluminum pole models, also with lifetime guarantee, that are 3-4 ounces per pair lighter than mine, but cost divided by ounces saved is a bit steep. The "Thermolite" model is 15.0 oz. per the Leki website. I could go the "asking Santa" (aka my grown children) route, though.
Gossamer Gear Lighttrek--highly praised in reviews. They now have adjustable poles, but no straps and (per Grant) no plans to provide any as an option.
Titanium Goat Adjustable Goat Poles--also highly praised in reviews. They do have straps as an option. However, their poles have been out of stock for several months. As far as I can tell, the weight savings with these poles would be truly significant, on the order of 11 ounces. (I find it really difficult to decipher their website--their website software seems to be incompatible with my Mac.) That's really tempting!
I entrust my life, or at least my ability to hike (and that is my life!), to my poles. Do I go for carbon fiber, and if so, what model? Do I just get the lighter aluminum Lekis? (By the way, the Leki "Ti" models do not contain any titanium, per their website.) Or should I stick with the poles I have?
Thank you very much, in advance, for your comments!
Edited by OregonMouse (10/20/0803:55 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey
I have a couple pairs: the REI-Komperdell, which remain unbroken, and the Lekis.
The two sets weigh within half an ounce/pair, so there's no reason to favor one over the other on the basis of weight.
The locks on both are a little tricky--they tend to spin before gripping. Once they grip they never slip, so are quite reliable in that regard. They damp vibrations much better than aluminum poles, and of course are lighter. It is primarily for those reasons I'll recommend either over metal poles.
Leki baskets are easier to swap once the tips get worn. Komperdells should be easier with their bayonet-style basket mounts, but are really difficult to remove after trail use.
I also use them as shelter support, and either set works fine, although the smaller Leki baskets make them a bit easier (presuming you use baskets at all).
FWIW Leki USA replaced a tip section at no charge after the glue joint failed where the expansion lock connects to the shaft. No questions asked, and they sent me two so I could replace both. That's the pair I normally grab, and I've got three seasons on them.
Quote:
I have done searches here and elsewhere and haven't found a lot of reassurance one way or another on the safety of carbon fiber trekking poles. I'm looking for lighter poles. The ones I have now (Leki Makalu Ti) weigh 18.8 ounces. They are excellent poles, and I'll continue to use them for exercise walking and dayhiking, but I'd like to cut the weight for backpacking. I'm therefore looking at carbon fiber.
I have, however, read a number of tales about carbon fiber poles breaking. I use my trekking poles really hard. I rely on them to maintain my balance on rough terrain and to save my bum knee on downhills. The poles have saved me from a number of what could have been quite serious falls. I'm scared that if I go to carbon fiber poles I'm setting myself up for a possible serious injury (fractures at my age [72] take a lot longer to heal).
I have looked at a number of models. They have to be adjustable, because the pole length I use for hiking is shorter than what I need for my shelters. They must have straps, because without straps my carpal tunnel syndrome starts acting up. With straps, I hardly need to hold the pole at all--all my weight is on the strap and my hand and wrist are quite relaxed. Eliminating the frequently-snapping REI/Komperdell carbon fiber poles, about which I've heard from Sarbar and others, here's what I've found:
Black Diamond--even their carbon fiber poles are as heavy as or heavier than the poles I have, so forget those. Very nice poles, but I'm not looking for increased weight. I also had trouble working the flicklock mechanism in the store with my small hands and fumble-fingers.
Leki--their carbon fiber poles are lighter but are guaranteed for only one year. (My current Leki poles have a lifetime guarantee.) This makes me suspicious right there--what happens the second year? There are Leki aluminum pole models, also with lifetime guarantee, that are 3-4 ounces per pair lighter than mine, but cost divided by ounces saved is a bit steep. The "Thermolite" model is 15.0 oz. per the Leki website. I could go the "asking Santa" (aka my grown children) route, though.
Gossamer Gear Lighttrek--highly praised in reviews. They now have adjustable poles, but no straps and (per Grant) no plans to provide any as an option.
Titanium Goat Adjustable Goat Poles--also highly praised in reviews. They do have straps as an option. However, their poles have been out of stock for several months. As far as I can tell, the weight savings with these poles would be truly significant, on the order of 11 ounces. (I find it really difficult to decipher their website--their website software seems to be incompatible with my Mac.) That's really tempting!
I entrust my life, or at least my ability to hike (and that is my life!), to my poles. Do I go for carbon fiber, and if so, what model? Do I just get the lighter aluminum Lekis? (By the way, the Leki "Ti" models do not contain any titanium, per their website.) Or should I stick with the poles I have?
Thank you very much, in advance, for your comments!
Having bounced around a lot myself, I'd say save yourself a lot of trouble (and cash) and stay with what you've got - if it ain't broke, don't fix it (pardon the pun.)
I finally settled on a pair of MSR Overland Carbon poles, and I like them pretty well. However, there is always a little voice in the back of my mind, saying "if they break..." I use them about half the time (and may ultimately replace them with Denali III's - do as I say, not as I do <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />); more and more, I revert to my trusty, tried, and true Tracks Sherlite staff. Of course, part of this may have to do with my general "old fogey-ness" and the fact that I learned to backpack using a single pole; somehow, I just feel a little clumsy when I try to use two poles.
phat Moderator
Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Ok, I have the komperdell's, and I think, as I've said once, I have broken them, and it was my fault, I did something pretty dumb resulting in them overextended past the joint and "click".
I have not broken them in "normal" use, but to put that in perspective, I'm a big guy, and I know I have to be careful about ankles. I bought the set a couple years ago on a whim, and I do have a "backup" set of aluminum poles. I have trashed aluminum poles on a fall before, and I presume if (when) I do a similar stunt with the carbon's I may snap one, although I've not managed to yet.
If I go out to scramble a mountain, I still take my aluminum poles. - because I know if I really abuse one it's going to bend, and not break. So, I take the carbon fibre jobbies on "hikes" and as soon as I would call it a "scramble" I leave them at home at take the heavier ones. No matter what I'm slow and careful in heavy terrain.
That's not an absolute, I've done lots of mountain stuff with the carbons without issue, and even some scary stuff for poles like the boulder field at owen point on WCT on them. (the guy in front of me snapped a titanal pole in half in the same boulder field.. and was happy it was the pole and not his leg) I've also had some epic "saves" in the last couple years with them, without any breakage issues. - I take my carbons on 90% of my hikes, but I like having the heavy ones for 10% <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I almost always use my poles - they never are in my pack - therefore I do not obsess over the weight. For me, it is the weight on my back that kills me, not an extra pound for poles. I now use the Black Diamond poles because they have the clip-lock feature - I could never get the twist poles tight enough to lock properly.
Been using Carbon Fiber poles for skiing since they came out 15 years ago- I used my orignal CF ski poles as my trekiing poles until 2 years ago when I switched to BD Carbon poles (which are lighter than their AL poles- don't know where you got your info from).
Bottom line: 300+ days of hard, agrressive resort and backcountry skiing, backpacking and mountinieering in the Sierra have proven carbon fiber poles to me. I'm 210 and not easy on my gear.
Now, not all poles are the same- the UL poles from GG, Ti Goat, Leki and others are nowhere near the burliness of my BD's or my Kermas- but they are lighter.
OregonMouse
member
Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I got the weight of the BD carbon fiber trekking poles from the BD website. Couldn't find any under 17 oz. As mentioned, I also had trouble with the flicklocks on the poles I looked at in REI,
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey
Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
I thru-hiked the PCT this year and carried the REI-branded Komperdell C.F. poles for the entire trip. Okay, I shouldn't just say "carried", but "used" --- once I got into my late fourties I became a convert to the "two poles, all the time" philosophy (and my knees still work just fine at age 52).
I used these without baskets, except for a stretch in the Sierras where I put on snow baskets. I prefer either no basket, or a real basket if the situation actually warrants it. After a bit, I concluded that the benefit of the snow baskets in some soft-snow locations in the Sierras (in June) was outweighed by the hassle of having them on in non-snow or hard-snow areas there, so I took 'em off and mailed 'em home. FWIW.
I also used one of these poles most nights as the tent pole for my Tarptent Contrail. Since I have the short version of the poles and I like to put the pole at an angle at the entrance, I regularly extended them beyond the "stop" location for this use, and had no problem. I didn't use a tent for the first 700 miles of the trip, so I might have only used my tent, say, 80 - 100 nights as a rough guess. But using the poles as poles --- I used these all day every day in literally all the terrain that the PCT had to offer this year, something like 140 days worth, with no problem. And the weight savings is something you can really feel if you swap for a few moments with someone who has heavier poles.
I think the key is to remember in what ways these poles are strong and in what ways they're weak, and take reasonable care not to bend them or whack them hard. The particular issue for me was getting not just a "head" knowledge but a "muscle" knowledge that when a pole tip got wedged in between rocks or sank into a hole and I was cruising pretty fast --- to not just brute force the pole to try to "catch up" with where my body had got to, but to be willing to slow or stop and even to back up when necessary to free the pole tip. This didn't happen so often as to make me want to reconsider baskets --- and those useless mini-baskets can get wedged into some types of holes that my basketless tips don't --- but it just takes one situation like that to snap a pole.
I've hiked excusively using MSR Carbon poles without any issues. I take them on weeklong backpack trips when carrying 40lbs (I'm 165lbs) and have fallen and/or slipped resulting in the poles taking the full load. I have only had one issue and it didn't have to do with the carbon sections. I feel they are super strong and in order to break them you would have to do something really drastic that would break any pole. This is my opinion.
Unlike wandering daisy, I think that weight is huge even if it's not on your pack. On a several mile backpacking trip, you are constantly picking up the poles in each hand. The less they weigh, the less they will fatigue your hands and wrists. It is similar to the Tour de France riders who ride thousands of miles and the simple act of shifting at the end of the long stages becomes very difficult. I find my hands, arms, and wrists in far better shape after a long hike using the carbon poles when compared to heavier aluminum ones. I also love the dampening effect that carbon gives. I've used several models of suspension poles and have not had a good experience with them. I can't leave home without my carbon poles and have had to, on several occasions, turn around and go back home when I realized I didn't have them. I've used them now for about 8 years.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...
Completely agree. The fatigue factor is great late in every long trail day. When you look at the physics of swinging the weight, not simply lifting it, it makes a lot of sense why this is.
I may yet convert to one-piece superlight poles, as I've experienced the rather dramatic difference between metal and "standard" CF.
OregonMouse
member
Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I appreciate hearing from everyone about their experience with CF poles. I will probably make the switch, but I'm still trying to decide on the specific poles.
I checked the Black Diamond website again, and their two models of CF poles weigh 19 oz. and 17 oz. The MSR poles look really nice, but they're also 17 oz. With both brands, I can't justify the price for that small a weight saving (or weight gain, in the case of the BD Contour) over my current poles at 18.8 ounces.
Thanks for all the feedback! I'm hoping for more!
Edited by OregonMouse (10/21/0808:46 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey
In my opinion, Komperdell makes the best carbon poles due to their weight, full carbon makeup, and Duo-Lock. Komperdell actually makes the MSR Carbon poles as well as the REI Peak Carbon Poles. I've used them with the new Duo Lock and without and really like how Komperdell's improved the locking mechanism. I haven't had slippages like I used to.
I think the best system out there is the cam-lock by Black Diamond (very secure and easy to use), but it's heavy. Komperdell offers the best compromise with a system that is almost as secure, but a lot lighter. You should check out the Komperdell Carbon - Womens poles. They are only 11.7 ounces per pair (166 grams per pole)! The only difference between the men's and women's is the women's is shorter by a few inches. However, they weigh less (11.7 vs. 12.5 ounces) because of it. They are one of, if not the, lightest 3 section pole on the market.
I weighed my MSR Carbon poles and they come in at about 15 oz. (weighed them on two different scales with the same results). I also have a pair of Komperdell Ultralight C3 poles w/ GReptile Grip (adds an ounce) and they come in at 13.5 oz. I think the MSR Carbons are heavier because they are built a little more beefy (observing Komperdells vs. MSRs) thus a little stronger. I have no problem or reservations trusting either. The REI Peak UL poles (same as the Komperdell Ultralight C3 Poles) are on sale for $109.83 right know. I think this is the best deal your going to find... REI has their weight listed at 12.5 ounces. I think this is pretty accurate.
Hope that helps...
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...
phat Moderator
Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I'd tend to agree with you, owning a pair of komperdells, although i would believe they aren't as strong as the others, I think they're "enough" in the situations I use 'em for. . I have no problem with the duolocks as long as I keep 'em clean, having said that, I still have the grip of tha 39 year old man. I can cam those suckers own nice and tight so they don't move. while I know the BD system is heavier, I can certainly see that the komperdell system, while light and secure when used by someone who can twist 'em down tight. might be a problem in some situations. People without the grip in their hands, particularly if they are a little older, might have real trouble with the komperdells.
Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1228
Loc: Eastern MA, USA
OregonMouse-
I've been very happy with my Gossamer Gear Lightrek poles. I've fallen on them, used them for shelter support, and generally put them through torture over a few hundred miles of AT. They are holding up well. I don't seem to need the straps that I used with Komperdell and Leki poles, although I added some small diameter cord elastic as "keeper" straps.
Check out the thread about DIY carbon fiber poles at the MYOG forum.
I have, however, read a number of tales about carbon fiber poles breaking. ...
They have to be adjustable, because the pole length I use for hiking is shorter than what I need for my shelters. They must have straps, because without straps my carpal tunnel syndrome starts acting up. With straps, I hardly need to hold the pole at all--all my weight is on the strap and my hand and wrist are quite relaxed. ...
If you absolutely need adjustable length poles, then probably the suggestions you've received already will guide you in the right direction. However, I thought it would be worth adding my suggestion that fixed-length poles, carbon fiber or otherwise, will likely be lighter and stronger than telescoping designs. I use a pair of lightweight komperdells with real straps--I posted a review a while back.
I understand, though, that if it won't work with your shelter, it's a big downer. What shelter do you use, by the way?
My suspicion is that the design and build quality of different poles matters more in terms of overall "strength" than does the material used--carbon vs alum. Sort of like bike parts.
OregonMouse
member
Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
The weights I mentioned for various makes of CF poles came directly from the manufacturers' websites.
While I appreciate the input from the fixed-length pole folks, I did state in my initial post why I need mine adjustable. I'm a short, squat granny and the pole length I need for hiking is 105 cm. My Tarptents require 115 cm (Squall 2) or 122 cm (Rainshadow 2, used when I take my grandkids out). If I had fixed-length poles, I'd have to carry poles for the tents, negating any weight savings. I also explained why I need straps (why the GG poles are a no-go)--carpal tunnel syndrome. If my weight falls on the strap, on the "heel" of my hand, I'm fine. If my weight falls on the grip, putting more leverage on my wrist joint, I'll be in big trouble.
I'll go by REI next week to see if I can work the adjustment on their (i.e. Komperdell's) CF poles. (I'll take my scale, too--the REI clerks hate that!) Since I occasionally have to run to the neighbors for help opening jars, this might be a deciding factor. I've never had problems sufficiently tightening my Leki poles, though. I've been told by those who regularly visit the basement in REI's Seattle store that they have an enormous bin full of single poles where the mate has broken (might be a good way to pick up a pair of poles cheap). That and Sarbar's account of Hoosierdaddy's REI/Komperdell pole breaking without any particular strain on it is what made me initially decide not to consider those poles.
I sent an email off to Titanium Goat asking about the status of their Adjustable Goat Poles (out of stock for several months now) but haven't heard back. I suspect they have a big backlog of emails on this subject!
I'm actually not in any hurry to get these poles--I don't backpack in winter. However, I do want to get a Christmas "wish list" out to my grown children in the near future! I'm hoping that "Santa" will finance the CF poles!
Thanks again, everyone! It looks as though I have some more homework to do!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey
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