Sleeping pad issue?

Hi all. I bought a BA insulated Aircore a few years ago. I spent 2 nights on the Manistee River trail and both where cold and hard....I went home and did the test BA suggested to find a hole. What I found was about a dozen holes the bottom 6" of mattress, top and bottom side. I called BA and they sent me a new one. Guess what? I took it out Friday night for a one-nighter to test some new equipment I "gained" over the winter......I slept on the cold, hard ground yet once again with the new one. I went back home and performed the same test. The same holes in the same areas appeared. Im very angry and almost done using anything that requires air. Im tempted to purchase another 3/8" thick closed cell and make a 1" thick bed roll combined with my 5/8" thick.

Few things to know:

1. I use a 5/8 foam pad under it for ground protection
2. I sleep in bare feet
3. First time was in my 40 deg Kelty bag, this time it was my 15 degree Rocky Peak bag.

I'd call BA and ask them if they sent the same pad back by mistake, but I'd also look into what could've happened at home too.

Don't trust cats. I don't keep any of my gear in the house because my wife has cats. They'll stick their claws in everything.

Thanks for the reply Bill. Our pooch and cat stay upstairs and my rolled up pad is stored downstairs in my back pack, which hangs on a hook. I know it wasnt the same as my old pad was maroon and the new one is electric blue. I called BA and typical to their stellar service, they are sending a new one sight unseen. I was only calling for possible advice and not another replacement. Needles to say Im gun shy and will just carry a back up (heavy) with me until the trust returns. BA service is amazing and not what you'd expect in todays America.

That's really, really odd... I've been using mine for 4 years.

Dumb question: could there be something in your backpack that could poke it? When you drop your bag or something maybe the tent stake poked its way through?

I took one back, several years ago; my local outfitter told me that BA had a quality control issue with their insulated air core pads, and that he'd gotten a lot of returns - all of them had a series of pinholes in the seam lines, so numerous that you could never fix them all. I thought they had that problem fixed by now, but maybe not.

Maybe, since you found the problem a couple years ago and they replaced it back then, your replacement could also have come from a problem batch.

I've gotten to the point of being tired of blowing up air pads, to the point that I'm going to give my old Thermarest another try this summer. (It's a Prolite Plus short, or a 40th anniversary full-length, if I need more thickness and warmth.) If you're sufficiently depraved to enjoy a chair kit, I've also found that the self-inflators make better chairs than the ultra-thick inflatable pads.

There are some interesting new products coming out in spring 2015. Did someone say self-inflatable NeoAir pads? Maybe...

One thing that Cascade Designs does with EVERY pad before it leaves the factory (in Seattle, WA not China) is they fill each of them up as full as they can get them for 48 hours in which time they are monitored for leakage. Once the quality control person is satisfied (he checks each pad with a set of calipers) they then roll it up and ship it out. I don't know of anyone else that does this...

Any chance that they would make a NeoAir with vertical (instead of horizontal) baffles and slightly larger ones on the outside?

The gentleman on the phone promised they would pressure test this pad before shipping. I believe they have a cylinder operated "press" in a pool of water they use. I asked if he had hear of anything like this or if they had an influx of air core returns, he said, "nope".

As far as my storage? I leave my pad, pillow and sleeping bag all in my sleeping bag compartment each in their own stuff sacks, just not sure how any of that could cause holes? Im going to bite the bullet and go out the same night my new pad arrives for a test run. I wouldn't be confident just tossing it in my pack for a 2-4 day walk and assuming all is well.

I don't think Cascade Designs would see this as a design update, but rather one that would set them back a few years. I don't think you will ever see a vertically baffled NeoAir.

So much of design is subjective. You may feel that vertical baffles are better but others feel it simply doesn't work as well as horizontally positioned baffles. In fact that's exactly the feeling of the designers and engineers at Cascade Designs simply based on comfort. You may disagree.

The jury is out whether or not larger baffles on the outside actually help you stay on the pad better. Personally they wouldn't work for me. I'm too much of a thrasher.

Cascade Designs philosophy is to create the smallest and lightest warmth to weight ratio pad available. They want it to be as durable as they can get it as well (durability doesn't mean puncture resistance but delamination). Comfort is very important and that is also a huge consideration. I would say, in creating new mattresses, they have three pillars - lightweight, durability, and comfort. Each of these receive the same consideration and none of them trump the other. Obviously if they focused solely on comfort they would have to compromise durability and lightweight and visa versa.

The next generation of mattresses take what we've developed with the NeoAir and have worked to improve upon it by creating a self-inflatable mattress. I actually haven't seen them nor do I know their weights or capabilities, but I have received word that this will be on the horizon. Just so you know, these new pads won't take the place of the current NeoAir mattresses.

The're also working on the new generation of standard self-infatables by using a new proprietary foam. There is much going on at Cascade Designs!

So, is the new motto: If it ain't broke, fix it?

Just kidding. I really like CD's stuff. They aren't always first to market, but most of the time, they get it very, very right when they do. (Exception: the stupid pad intake on the Hyperflow; there's GOT to be a better way to do that!)

One of the reasons I never really took to alcohol stoves and hammocks is that MSR hadn't come out with one yet. (I'm not knocking either one - I think both are great ideas that work well; I'm just not drawn to them - yet.)

Although you meant that tongue in cheek, I think you've hit on something. It seems we want what's new and better, even though what we already have works very well. I can't say that I'm not guilty of this. My iPhone 5 does everything I need, but yet there always seems to be something that would make it even better. The final result never really meets our expectations. I'm amazed at those in the tech world who absolutely excoriate Apple for not bringing out a new revolutionary, life changing gadget every 6 months!

Cascade Designs philosophy has traditionally been 'if it's not broke, there is no need to fix it'. However, lately, based on current trends, we have kind of been forced to constantly improve even if it's not necessary. That isn't really a bad thing, but it's not always a good thing either. Backpacking gear isn't like electronics or cars. Typically, for a backpacker, the less complicated, the better. Reliability seems to be synonymous with simplicity and the constant 'upgrading' can begin to impede on both the simplicity and reliability of the product.

The thing that Cascade Designs strives to pride itself on is taking a complicated problem, figuring it out, and then ultimately simplifying it. We as backpackers demand simplicity! In other words, it simply has to work well, with little hype, consistently over time or it has little to no value to us. Take, for instance, the Shaker Jet in the liquid fuel MSR stoves. I would say this was one of the greatest inventions (if you can call it that) that has ever come out of Cascade Designs' factories. All it is is a very small wire (that's slightly smaller than the diameter of the jet hole) attached to a weight that is designed to clean the carbon residue from the jet by using the walking motion (or more deliberate shaking motion) of the backpacker. Before this idea came to fruition, the only solution was to disassemble the stove, and something akin to threading a needle, the user would then be required to clean the incredibly small hole with an even smaller wire (try to do that while in driving wind and rain with gloves!). The 'Shaker Jet' technology has almost completely eliminated dirty jets in MSR stoves. Brilliant!

Another example is the Reactor Stove although the fix wasn't nearly as elegant as the Shaker Jet. However, the final results proved very successful. The idea of overcoming wind and cold while maintaining efficiency with a canister stove presented a daunting challenge. The Reactor overcame many barriers in manufacturing which included a part that was the first of it's kind to be produced in the specialty outdoor industry. Cascade Designs also relied on its relationship with Boeing to help seek out new materials and manufacturing to bring these ideas to pass. Thus, not unlike the Shaker Jet, the user may not know how it works, but that's ok. All they need to know is how to light it, and then they just sit back and bask in the simple task of boiling water (in wind, cold, and with a mostly empty canister). It just works without worry.

The NeoAir was no different. Their quest to create a mattress that didn't include traditional insulation (based on it's bulk and susceptibility to packing out) was almost as difficult as the challenges faced with the Reactor stove. What came of this 7 year journey to bring 'Tiger Technology' to market (this is what it was known internally before being called NeoAir) resulted in a mattress that was lighter and packed smaller than many air-only mattresses, but was able to insulate as well as a mattress filled with down. For me personally, it was a remarkable feat that works well.

This is what drives Cascade Designs and what makes them so valuable in the outdoor marketplace. They don't always get it right, and sometimes fail miserably, but without these types of manufacturers striving to move the bar higher, we would never see the innovations we do today.

Nice post. However, I'm afraid I've hijacked the OPs original posting. I echo many of your feelings about CD gear, and would love to share them if you're willing to head over to the PM area. I'll put up a reply over there to your last post later this evening. (If anyone else wants to explore this issue of design balance, let me know and I'll be glad to add you to the PM.)

Your idea of using two closed cell pads to get an inch of foam sounds good, but I'm wondering if the bulk would create issues of its own? Also, what would the weight be? (I'm not trying to discourage you; I just don't know the answers off the top of my head, since I haven't used closed-cell foam since the late 1980s.)

I know there are pads that use open-cell foam bonded to closed-cell foam (not a self-inflator - there's no airtight shell around the open cell foam.) I don't know how weight and bulk would be for this, either.

For what it's worth, I've never had any problems at all with the Thermarest self-inflating pad, or with the NeoAir pads; I have returned one BA IAC pad, but had no problems with the Q-Core pad I got. If you're inclined toward a chair (I'm starting to think that they're no longer an luxury after 60), I've found the Thermarest self-inflators work best with a chair kit.

Since you're in Michigan, I'm assuming you're not going to be above treeline (unless you head waaaay north), so I'll toss this out there: would a hammock with an underquilt be a workable option for you? (I don't like hammocks myself - or maybe, more accurately, haven't found one I'm comfortable in yet - so I'm not advocating, just asking a question.)

Glenn I believe my 5/8 pad weighs around 12-16 oz, the 3/8 would add 9 oz. Still lighter than my BA air core is. The bulk is also my concern. I could always buy/cut the 3/8" pad down to 48" long to cover me from the hips up. That would only add a few inches to the circumference of the 5/8 pad I already have.

I wont go above the treeline anytime soon. My hiking partner (bro-in-law) has a hammock and loves it. Im a tent guy myself, I love the secure feeling they offer, weather, bugs and the like. By the time he packs two straps, hammock, tarp, rope and pads his weight is only a pound or so less than me with a tent and pad. I like to stay under 25# total pounds for anything 4 days or less. Im a real stickler about dead weight!