Keep Forum interactions positive, no dissing

A forum is a virtual spot owned by the participants for their enjoyment. If you don't believe that - make the members angry and the forum ceases to exist because it has no traffic. When the participants can discuss ideas with mutual respect for each other and learn new ideas from other experienced people in a constructive manner, the members are happy and the forum works. A forum with members who insist that they are always right and everyone else is wrong, is not a place of debate nor of idea sharing.

Two big events happened recently - I walked in an REI and I turned 65. As I turn 65 I am so strongly aware of the many "correct" paths that can be taken through the same woods to arrive at the same destination. I love to examine those ideas that I disagree with to see why someone thinks they have value (perhaps they might have value for me). As for REI, there as so many new gadgets and shiny bits of camping gear that the immortal question "which is the best" has no meaning anymore. The best is the one that you like OK? It happens that most of my gear is 20 years old and is totally functional to me for what I do. Don't put me down because my gear is old, I had a 18 pound baseweight before most of you were born.

So anyway I am going to insist on some changes to the interactions of the forum members based on pms sent to me by members. There will be no posts allowed that are specifically written to "argue" with another member. This is not to mean that discussions of quoted material and ideas will not be allowed for the purpose of disscussion, but the comments must be contructive and allow for differences of opinion and not judge the messenger of the idea.

My mother-in-law knows there are two ways of doing everything, her way and the wrong way. I do not want to try to share ideas with her, or even speak to her. Forums are for open minded people who want to share ideas about new approaches to doing something fun, not listen to endless debate about it.

OBSERVE THE POWER OF THE DELETE KEY. SOMETIMES YOU JUST WRITE IT DOWN LIKE IT IS, ALL OFFENSIVE AND EVERYTHING, THEN SMILE AND PRESS DELETE. It is wrong to use the forum for negative personal interaction

The SHOUT box is for the general personal interaction, lets keep the threads clear of a lot of personal stuff so more people can share, and while its not a rule, do not attempt to dominate a thread, instead give more people a chance to respond before posting again. Like maybe wait for 4 posts before answering any and unless its an unusual case, do not post more than 4 times to any thread, so as to allow for more peoples ideas to be written first.

Thanks for your time and heres a toast to new year and fun at the camping spot. See more of me in "almost over the hill"
Jim

That's why I increasingly just state my own experience and add "YMMV" (Your Mileage May Vary). There's no one way to do anything, although admittedly sometimes I cringe!

Actually, the site is owned by Packlite and his word is law. However, we all want to preserve it as a place of civility where people feel welcome and not put down!

Jim, you're still a spring chicken! I recently turned 78 and unfortunately am increasingly feeling my age. However, I do plan to keep backpacking as long as I can manage to stagger a few miles from the trailhead!

And welcome back! We've missed you!

Thanks for posting this. I couldn't agree more.

Some of you know who I am. Other's may not. I'm nobody really important, but I used to be a regular on this forum. However I had an incident that resulted in me not participating anymore. I was involved in a discussion with a few members in a meaningful, substantive way about current backpacking technology. It turned into nothing more than incredibly hurtful personal attacks by a particular individual. I couldn't believe this person wasn't immediately kicked off the forum permanently. His blatant disregard for anyone else's opinion was shocking to say the least. He was the authority on the subject and that was final. If you crossed him, then decorum was thrown out the window. It got really ugly.

I learned that he was a manufacturer of a well-respected cottage industry pack brand that the administrators wanted to have participate. Unfortunately it wasn't his only incident. After that, I was through. It simply wasn't worth it and the fun was gone. To this day it saddens me. I really would like to participate again and Jimshaw's post is a good step in helping me do so.

There are a few things I've learned over the 10+ years of being a rep for a few outdoor gear manufacturers. I started in this business eager to let everyone know that the stuff I represented was the best! I learned (not as quickly as I should have) that this tactic was counterintuitive. In other words, I didn't get the results I was hoping for. What eventually worked for me was to simply explain the advantages and disadvantages of the product and let the chips fall where they may. Luckily the product I've repped for over the years (Cascade Designs, Princeton Tec, Adventure Medical Kits, Granite Gear, Powertraveller, Stanley, Yakima, and Westcomb) are from amazing companies who put incredible effort and resources into their products. As unbiased as I could be, I strived to use this tactic to help the people I worked for understand our products so that they would be empowered to relay the information to the customer and get them the product that they needed and/or what they were looking for.

My advice (if anyone wants it) in researching a piece of gear would be to start by comparing gear based on the items unique advantages and disadvantages which should then be based on YOUR wants and needs. There is no perfect gear and there is no such thing as 'the best'! As an example, MSR tents aren't the lightest, but they aren't designed to be. We consider livability, durability, and weight equally. That may or may not suit your needs. If lightweight is the most important category, then you should probably look elsewhere. But I wouldn't disregard the other categories simply because you have convinced yourself that lightweight trumps all. You may regret that decision in the end. Having said that, there may be a better tent that addresses these three criteria. The only way you can know is if you make the effort to find it.

I would also encourage everyone to form your own opinion. We all have the capability to develop an opinion based on the incredible amount of information available to us today. No longer are we subject to a sales person's opinion. Study it out, get as much information as you can, ask the right questions, read user reviews, find people who are honest and upfront with you (like many on this forum), and, if possible, try it out and return it if it's not what your looking for (make sure you know the store/manufacturer's policies before buying). Please don't go off of someone else's word. If you do it right, you can be as expert on gear as those of us who do it for a living. I definitely do not claim to be the utmost authority on gear and I still glean much information from folks who have used our products both shop employees and customers (I also try to use the products as much as a husband and father can). I learn new things everyday! It's one of the funnest parts of my job.

Most importantly, have fun! The majority of us do this to forget about the stresses, pains, and strifes of life. This is our release! This forum should be about enjoying each other's opinion and experience, not to prove how I'm right and you're wrong.

Capisce?

I fully agree with everything said in the previous posts. I remember the incident you were talking about, Jason - you were poorly treated, in my opinion, and I for one have really missed you. I hope you'll start participating again; yours was a valuable input, and since you always made it clear you were not totally impartial, I had no problem evaluating the information you gave us.

I've been through a similar thing lately regarding politics. My mother and my brother-in-law have, shall we say, a blind spot regarding the President; let's also say my own positions don't precisely align with theirs. So, they started bombarding me, incessantly, with all the derogatory email they could: "Obama isn't an American," "Obama won't salute during the national anthem," and the one that broke the camel's back: a "joke" that compared Michelle Obama to a primate. Strange, though, nothing about Boehner's "suntan" (which is another pointless issue.)

I told them both that I enjoyed discussing the problems this country faced with them, but that we hadn't really done that in a while, and that I didn't have time to waste on character assassination and trivial insults that didn't further the conversation. I also told them that, if I received another such email from them, I would block them on my email.

Guess what - no more garbage.

Being how most of us are totally in the dark here, I'm a bit confused. It seems most everyone is pretty darn nice on this board. When was this incident? In 2009? If so why is it just now being addressed? That's 5 years ago.

Not that I disagree, just not fully understanding.

Everybody is wrong and I'm always right.

Things have been pretty mellow here lately as far as I know, but I may have missed some threads.

I don't mind debating the merits of gear or technique or strong opinions about them, but personal attacks can be annoying. The moderators here are generally pretty quick to tamp those down.

Over my years here I've watched opinions evolve as a result of the interactions here, my own included.

Jim, I've been meaning to PM you myself and ask where the heck you've been?!

It's my opinion that you should visit with us more often, old man.

Hi Jim!
Good to see you back Jason. I enjoyed first hand info, which is good in gear selection.
Duane

I couldn't believe this person wasn't immediately kicked off the forum permanently. His blatant disregard for anyone else's opinion was shocking to say the least.

I am sorry to hear this. As a moderator I am especially sorry this was not dealt with in a way that gave you any satisfaction.

In response I'd say first that I don't read every post in every forum. We moderators are volunteers and this is not part of our job description. So, it is possible none of us read the thread at the point where this blew up.

So, please, if you feel there is something going on that requires moderator attention, whether it is spam or personal attacks, then send hit the Notify button at the bottom of the offending post and let us know we should look into it. I guarantee you that any post we are notified of gets looked at and any member complaining of a personal attack will get very close scrutiny. (This works for spam postings, too.) Thanks!

The other thing I should explain is that sometimes when a poster crosses the line it initiates an offline discussion among moderators, and oftentimes a message exchange with the offender trying to bring them back into line, rather than an instant banning. Depending on how that exchange plays out, they may be banned (and very often are) or possibly not, but there may be a lag between when the offense takes place and when action is taken. I would hope we mods would remember to PM the person attacked, too, but that can get overlooked in the flurry of activity.

Lastly, we don't announce when someone is banned. The only way to know whether a member is active is if they continue to post. A banned member just disappears. *poof*

jasonlivy, if that exchange still rankles you and the person who attacked you is still posting to these forums, I'd be open to revisiting it and trying to find an appropriate solution. From what I know of the other mods, they would probably think the same.

Edit: I see that since December of 2009 you have made only one other post aside from the one in this thread. I became a moderator in December of 2010 when packlite decided to expand his number of moderators. Even so, my offer to mediate still stands.

Further edit: I dug back into it and I discovered that the exchange you are most likely speaking of took place in February 2009 and the member in question has never taken part in another thread from that time forward. Although the forum software does not list him as permanently banned, the server has been down and restored and the software variously upgraded many times since then. The evidence suggests he was banned for that very exchange.

I believe Jims advise is good advice and probably should be stated every now an then even without incident. It helps keep honest folk honest.

Forums are probably the hardest means of communication as there is no inflection of voices to be heard or no eye to eye contact to affirm that others are understanding the spirit of the comments we make. Hard to get a fix on where people are coming from at times.

In my experience the death of a forum comes right after a small group of folks dominate the conversation and use the sight as a personal meeting place. Participation drops drastically and newbies don't hang around long. Newbie participation is the best marker of a healthy sight and what will in turn drive participation in the sport. The more the better because without participation in the sport there is less reason for keeping the wild places wild. So a lot rests on our stewardship.

jimmyb

Jason, welcome back!!! I hope you'll stay!

I just want to repeat Aimless' description of how we mods do things. Most (not all) of the current moderator staff (including me) got into this role after the time you describe. The site was getting really low on moderators and, as Aimless mentions, Packlite invited half a dozen of us to join the staff. That was probably a year or more after you left.

First, we can't always check everything, so we rely heavily on our readers' use of the "Notify" button. Please feel free to use it!

Second, we issue a warning to the offender and discuss the issues on the moderators-only forum. However, if a post is particularly abusive, we may (and should!) edit it and issue a warning notice. Sometimes things happen rapidly; sometimes it's a slow process.

I like the idea of sending a PM to the person complaining--we won't do it for spam (although we thank the many spam spotters who help us keep it under control!), but for cases of abuse, we really should add this step so the person being abused knows we're working on it.

If the abuser rejects our efforts to enforce civility, we don't hesitate to ban.

Looking at the thread Aimless looked up (also before I became a moderator), I note that there were several posts calling for moderators, but did anyone ever push that "notify" button? If nobody did, the chances are excellent that nobody on what at that time was a very small moderator staff ever saw it. I'm sure I know who the offender is--he still occasionally posts nasty abusive stuff on other forums. If he comes back here to post in a similar vein, I guarantee he won't last long, reputation or no! I know I can safely say this even if I'm not longer here (I'm getting rather long in the tooth)!

Welcome Back Jim but sorry I've been sleeping cause I didn't realize you were gone. I've had a conflict or two in here years ago and try to just let it go under the bridge and over the falls to the rocks below. Were just human here and all have our faults, yet still the hike goes on. If I don't like my campsite, I'll hike on. But I kinda like this campsite and have been for a while even though I usually just stay in the tent while the rest of you are out by the fire. Congrats on reaching 65..

Glad to see you're back Jason.

I don't recall the incident you mentioned but I know for sure that personal attacks are not tolerated here now.

Aimless is great at nipping those in the bud and, really, there just hasn't been a lot of that here in a good while now.

I have a pretty thick skin when it comes to reading what people write. I know from my own experience that first reads can feel more inciting than 2nd and 2rd reads of a post and sometimes it's best to sit on a reply and wait and re-read them again in a few days. Often times they don't feel so harsh or personal after I read them again. And even if they do I often don't feel it's worth getting riled up with a response by then.

Jim, I'm really glad to see you back too. I've missed you. I hope you've got some hiking and exploring in. I haven't got enough, that's for sure, but we'll have some good weather here soon so I hope to. Snowed again this morning, and it's cold right now though

Holy Cow Jason! We missed your input! I wondered what happened to you!

I have an affinity for Cascade Designs so I hope you post some more tests and ideas. Here’s one--- instead of tying two neoairs together, how about selling a double-wide neoair? My wife always feels the separating crack. She is the princess and the pea.

Anyway, keep on posting!
-Barry
-The Mountains were made for Tevas