Clothing for -40?

Hey guys! I work at an outdoor store and a female customer is curious about what clothes she needs to purchase. We carry Arc'Teryx, Kuhl, Icebreaker, The North Face, Rab, Merrell, etc. She is going to a place where she will be stationary in temperatures down to -40. She also is looking for something by these companies that is built for a shorter person. She wants lightweight, warm, and the ability to layer (pants and jacket). What jackets and pants would you recommend for this situation?
Thanks guys!

I missed the news for a few days: when did Hell actually freeze over?

Sorry; I have no really useful information to add, but I couldn't resist asking the obvious question. It would seem that high-quality down would be part of the answer (say, something by Western Mountaineering or equivalent quality) - assuming that she is going to be able to keep it reasonably dry where she is going. (If she can't keep down dry, the next logical question is, will she be able to keep synthetic insulation dry in those conditions? "Warm when wet" might hold somewhat true in the eastern U.S. forests in above-zero temperatures, but I can't imagine it making much difference at 40 below.)

Good luck helping her find something that will work.

I would have her take a look at the full body down suits from places like RAB, Western Mountaineering, and Feathered Friends.

Maybe check packing lists for Denali winter ascents, Everest ascents, and the like.

One of the expedition climbers is sure to chime in pretty soon about this.

My husband is allergic to down, so we don't have any, so here are my non-down suggestions.

I have Carharts and Apocalypse design wear.

I also wear polar weight thermals by L. L. Bean (specifically Power Dry Stretch Base Layer.) I have a lot of wool shirts and sweaters by Ibex, Icebreaker, Smart Wool and others.

The warmest boots I've ever found are the White! Mickey Mouse boots from surplus. Also very important is a very good warm hat.

HTH.

If you do something stupid at -40 , you die.
It is very easy to do somethging stupid at -40.

Never done that myself (the -40 bit, I am proficient in stupid)
but have met several that have and discussed the topic many times.

Some bits :

Avoid metal bits, they will burn the skin.
Avoid fiddly bits that need bare hands to be used

It is very difficult to keep a down bag from accumulating perspiration and then freezing.
At some point sublimation comes into play. I know that at the South Pole at least it has been used to dry sleeping bags and clothing, if I remember correctly you need temps below -40 and wind.
(however a down loving mate has used only TNF synthetic bags in Alaska and Minnesota and outside the station at the South Pole, the other guys there did the same. Worked well inside a full eVent bivy on several trips)

Always a good idea to see what the locals use, see Heather's suggestion..(add Wintergreen to that)
Wool and fleece over down.

Have spare hat and gloves.
Make sure that the gloves (mittens over gloves) are easy to put on and take off and must have workable idiot cords.
(not the cosmetic type...)

Just to add to the fun...
At -40 a 5 mph wind (yes 5...) will cause frostbites in 10 min.
If you are not particularly after a nose job you need to cover that and every bit of exposed skin up.
( a 15mph wind will do that in 5 minutes, take your time...)

"It is very difficult to keep a down bag from accumulating perspiration and then freezing."

Wouldn't the same be true of a synthetic bag? (I'm not trying to be a wise guy here. I genuinely don't know the answer; it's been too long since I've used synthetic bags.) I could see that the same amount of perspiration might not have the same effect - the down does collapse when wet; perhaps the synthetic doesn't collapse as badly or as quickly? But certainly, both bags would absorb the moisture?

Also, does the rate of perspiration matter? It would seem that your body heat might drive the moisture out of the bag - I've done that when humidity or condensation has dampened my bag one night; after the next night, it's dry again. However, at -40, with the moisture freezing, the dynamics might be different?

What about clothing? Down clothing would seem to hold moisture just like a sleeping bag.

Would vapor barrier clothing be of any use at those temperatures?

Again, I have no experience with this; my questions are prompted only by what I've read in Colin Fletcher's books (mostly Complete Walker and Secret Worlds.) So, I'll apologize if these sound like stupid questions - Franco and I slugged it out for class honors in stupid.

the down does collapse when wet;
Yes
perhaps the synthetic doesn't collapse as badly or as quickly?
Yes
But certainly, both bags would absorb the moisture?
yes

BPL (Backpackinglight) did some experiments about wetting and drying synthetic and down clothing. The results were very similar , however they were done at tempos around 20f, at -40 it is a different ball game.

I have a Wiggy's synthetic -60F bag and I put my Summer 0F bag (comfort rating 30F I believe) in it. I don't know that I've ever camped out at -40F. Most thermometers I've found stop at -20F (annoying as heck.) I haven't had any issues for two nights in a row with moisture.

Mickey mouse boots are a vapor barrier - which means wet socks (in other words bring lots of extra socks.) One of the biggest issues is drying stuff out.

Regarding the face issue - petroleum jelly applied to the skin generously helps. Actually keeping skin hydrated helps as well (i.e. lotion and keeping hydrated.)

Outer clothing does get frost - one of the ways to dry things is to put it closer to the body so the moisture is pushed out (driven out.) I'm not sure what happens if you don't get your outer clothing to dry at some point, as I'm usually only out for a night or two.

Honestly, she would need lots of layers for that temperature. I don't really know the options that the companies sell but most likely a thin wool base layer, a thicker fleece/wool layer, then an insulator most likely some mountain hardware, then the gortex shell.
-Nate-

Why a gortex shell? At -40 you don't have precipitation - and at least here no wind. I'd say one of those wonderful cotton anoraks would work. (-40 and cotton outerwear is okay)

I spent 6 months in Antarctica in 1968-69 as one member of a two man field party. When we arrived in September we started our work on some nunataks in the upper Ferrar glacier at 7000' elevation. Temperatures fell as low as -52 degrees and there were occasional katabatic winds in excess of 80 mph.

We dressed for the weather and made sure that we had shelter handy if the clothing was not enough. We had silk underwear and over that, thick wool long johns. Over the long johns, on the bottom, we wore down pants with about 1" of loft and wind pants. On top, we wore wool shirts, a down sweater and an insulated wind parka with a fur rimmed hood. On our heads we wore a Balaklava under a down "bomber hat". On our hands we wore US Air Force rayon anti-contact gloves, thick wool mittens and gauntlet-style nylon and leather wind mitts. On our feet we wore mukluks with wool felt liners and thick wool socks. We tried the surplus "Mickey Mouse" boots but found the mukluks warmer.

The tents we used and the outer garments we wore were made of long-fiber cotton. We never gave a thought to waterproofing: the temperature would have had to climb a lot before getting wet was an issue. The snow was the texture of sand and in a strong wind would literally blast paint off of the generator we carried to power our radio.

Since my time in Antarctica, I have had relatively little interest in winter camping .

I agree. Wool base layer, wool midlayers, and dense cotton anarak. Gortex stops breathing at really low temps, so it is as good as a plastic bag.

Though expensive, one option is just plain good down outerwear. I've seen temperatures close to this range during a Denali climb and close to but not as cold on Aconcagua. At those temperatures wet is really not an issue. On the denali climb I could more or less just roll around in the snow and it just falls off when you stand up. After 3 weeks on the mountain and probably 6-8 feet of snow falling nothing was remotely wet that I recall. The snow is super light and dry at those temps. I'd say a nice one piece (with crotch zipper) long underwear, some mid layers and then heavy down outwear would work well. I used feather friends Icefall Parka and Frontpoint pants along with plastic boots and neoprene and foam overboots. Also had a feathered friends -40 bag. Hands and face are the real problem. I used OR altimitts but anytime you need dexterity you need to pull them off and use whatever thinner liners you have and then you spend about 2 minutes working on something and 5 minutes getting feeling back once you pull the mitts back on. If any of those brands have anything similar to these items they might work well. I also second what someone said about vapor barrier liners in boots. I guess it depends if she has facilities to dry stuff out at night. Boots are the only exception I noted in terms of keeping stuff dry. I had no problem (used VB liner) but others in my party had some wet boots after a number of days of hard work and sweat. If she is not camping, the liners probably aren't needed but if she is camping I'd recommend them.

I am not sure we are the correct forum to address this issue. I would look around on the internet about what gear they use at McMurdo Station, in Antarctica. I have been winter mountaineering in -40, but not in the day- that was our night temperatures. We would ski into a base camp and then make a huge snow cave to live in for a week and attempt climbs from the snow cave. But this was in the early 1970's and I am sure there is different/better equipment out there now so I hesitate to suggest what I used. I also used the white Micky Mouse boots and they kept my feet warm when in camp. While skiing, we just used regular leather x-c ski boots (with lots of wool socks and the boots had huge boxy toes) since we were actively moving and it would warm up to about 0-degreesF.

The actual location and intended activities would also make a difference in the clothing. What is this person going to be doing?

I find myself wondering who, if they did not know how to dress for it, would go into those conditions in the first place.

Honestly - if you don't know, should you even go - you be needin' a lot more research than you've done, and wtf are you shopping at REI or a competitor for? Expedition gear doesn't come on a rack.

Exactly! Good points Lori.