Grand Canyon

Goal this year was to hike down to river and back from South Rim. This would be my first trip
and haven't been successful in organizing a group, yet. Any advice is helpful, including joining an existing party, permits, best easy to moderate trails, etc. I'm early fifty with basic skills and experience.

There are lots of threads about the Grand Canyon here. Go to the search feature, type in "Grand Canyon" (including quotation marks) and a cornucopia of info will spill forth. Just be sure to move the time frame back a couple of years from the default of 1 week.

If you are going down and back in one day be sure you prepare physically for it.
As far as permits, they are needed for overnite stays below the rim.
They can be applied for up to 3 months in advance ad the fees are minimal.
GF and I are going north rim to south rim in a week. We planned the trip around the full moon and will stay 3 nights in the canyon.
Have fun and do the search trailrunner said.

thanks.

Actually, there are a few permits held back for "day-of" walk-ups--for people who want to test their luck. The rest become available 5 months out (e.g. All June permits become available Feb 1)

A helpful GC site is www.kaibab.org

Our trip plans are progressing, however slow. Permit request is filled out and ready to fax.We are scheduling this during the second week of January due to two son's work and school commitments. Also wanting to enjoy the full moon during this time in the canyon. Thought we would descend S.Kaibab to B.A.for two nights and ascend Bright Angel Trail for two more nights at I.G. Use these sites as bases for area day hikes? I know weather is so unpredictable, but has anyone ever experienced bone chilling temps.during the day in the inner canyon during January? And what about shuttle service to and from PHX to G.C.? We don't particularly want to rent a car.

Here's the shuttle: http://www.openroadtours.com/shuttles/default.htm

Here's an itinerary concept:
Day 1-- Descend S. Kaibab to Tonto Trail (at Tipoff toilet). Head west and spend night at IG.
Day 2 -- Catch sunrise out at Plateau Point. Then hike down to BA along Garden Creek and Colo. River.
Day 3 BA basecamp or up to Cottonwood. Check out Ribbon Falls or take Clear Creek Trail to top of Tonto Platform.
Day 4 BA
Day 5 hike out S. Kaibab Tr. 2-3 qts of water adequate.
This itinerary gets you on the section of the Tonto between S. Kaibab and B. Angel trails which would be a major park on its own if it weren't swallowed up by the rest of the canyon. IMHO, the BA from IG to top isn't that interesting and in winter doesn't even have (or need) the utility feature of water at the rest houses. My take: What's the point when there are more interesting routes?

Temps at night maybe mid 30's to mid 40's at BA; down to freezing/upper 20's at IG or Cottonwood. Be prepared for zones of mud-rain-snow-ice at various elevations. Be sure to bring Yaktrax (or buy them there). Also, last time I was there in Jan., there was a real whippy wind from time to time.

It has been a while since my last post but trip is progressing. I submitted my app. on the eve of hurricane Ike's arrival and received permit six days later! Now, was it because I was one of the first parties to apply or are we going to have the canyon to ourselves during what I imagine will be a cold trip. We will descend S.K. to I.G. for one night, two nights at B.A. and return to I.G. for final night, returning up B.A.. One of my concerns at this point is warmth. I'm shopping for a newer bag as my Cat's Meow failed to keep me comfortable in a forty degree environment. I'm not packing much if any body fat so I tend to chill easily, especially before waking. I'm taking to heart the advice of buying 20-25 degree warmer than anticipated temps. Would you all agree? I'm leaning towards a 0 degree, 700-800 down, and trying to keep it close to $400. All manufacturers claim superior comfort and value. What are the thoughts and experiences here. In conjunction with this will be the layered clothing and I'm taking any suggestions and advice. Given that I will be assisting my adult son's with some of their equipment needs I need to keep cost in mind but do not want to jeopardize our safety or experience by not properly gearing up.

Buying a sleeping bag for 20-25 degrees colder than expected lows sounds like a great way to carry more weight than you need to IF you are buying a good quality bag that is properly rated. My experience with Marmot is that their rating is very close to on target (and I sleep cold) as long as I have enough insulation under me. Western Mountaineering bags have the reputation as actually being warmer than rated but I have no personal experience with them. Maybe someone else can chime in here. Don't forget that if the temps drop, you can increase the warmth of your bag by adding clothes and even by bringing a hot water bottle to bed with you.

Just a question about your itinerary. From the SK trailhead, it's 9.5 miles to IG but only 6.8 miles to BA Tonto Trail Distances . Maybe 1 night at IG, if you want to go to the lookout before heading up the trail.

BTW. I will be returning in August '09 to do the lower 1/2 canyon on a rafting / hiking trip. We are going to arrive 2 days early and hike down SK to BA, then meet the rafts at the River Resthouse.

Good point .I wonder how flexible the rangers will be with any changes? I hear I.G. will be pretty
shady & colder at this time, so maybe three nights at B.A. instead and using as a jump site for day hikes?

I think the kaibab to IG was perhaps my suggestion. The point is not saving time but enjoying a less-travelled and scenic segment of the Tonto trail and a less boring descent than going down the BA trail. I think I had 8.5 mi but am certainly open to correction. I have done this itinerary and it was well worth it.

In Jan of this year IG was in the high 30s at night. I think that's typical.

Just get a sleeping bag that really performs at the claimed temp rating rather than overkill on the temp rating. I used a WM Ultralite there in Jan(actually at Cottonwood which is a little higher elevation) and I was OK

It is less than a week away from our departure date to GC and watch the NWS daily to see if the weather conditions will improve. Now it appears another severe Pacific storm is moving into the area towards the end of this week. I viewed the webcam during the last pounding snow and it did not look enjoyable. A call to the back country office reported one inch of snow at Phantom Ranch. Everyone is different, but when do you decide to abort a long anticipated trip?
We fly to PHX on Wednesday and start our descent on Thursday. A Happy New Year to you all!

First, are you prepared to hike in the snow? On your descent, the first several hundred yards can be quite icy at times, but from what I've heard, it clears off after that. You might want to get a pair of slip-on type ice grippers (sorry, don't remember the name of them), but they're lightweight and will easily fit into your pack when you're not using them.
Your biggest problem may be more of getting to the Canyon from Phoenix, rather than what to do when you get there.
Personally, if you can get to the Canyon, I'd go for it. Just prepare for winter camping.
Oz

I agree. You have to reasonably expect snow and ice at the South Rim in January. Just gear up for it. It looks like the storm system will have come and gone by the time you get there. The temps in the inner canyon will be close to normal and I wouldn't expect snow to stick around for long at the bottom with temps in the upper 40's to 50's. Have fun and post some pics.

I rack my brain daily asking the same. Unless I missed something I think we are. Didn't want to chance buying crampons at park so ordered online.
CMI's 4-point basic. Followed guidelines for winter clothing. I've given some thought about the drive from PHX and the possibility of having to chain up the last leg. I hope that's not necessary. My groups scheduled arrivals are 30-45 min. apart starting at 10:30 a:m so that gives us a tight window to process out of car rental and make the canyon b4 sunset. At my age I'm less interested in proving anything but more interested in having a memorable/enjoyable experience w/ my sons so, really lousy weather would really suck!

This mornings NWS report shows the storm arriving sooner, late Friday instead of Saturday. That's good! Hopefully it will do its job and move out, quickly. Questions. Will I have access to elect. at P.R. to borrow some juice to recharge camera batt. if needed? Can we get weather reports b4 ascending? Is potable water available at P.R.? Ideas for buying exact quantity of fuel for my MSR Dragon Fly & is 33oz. plenty for 3 over 4 nights? And finally, maybe. Our packs w/gear will be checked. Initially was just going to send them on as is but have become concerned that straps, etc. would get damaged. What experiences can you all share? I've settled on S.K. down to B.A. for three nights and final night at I.G. on B.A. ascent. All during full moon. Open to ideas for day hikes while around river, etc. Pictures? You bet!

Have you checked out the N Kaibab to Ribbon Falls or part of the Clear Cr. Tr. Harvey Butchart (Grand Canyon Treks) speaks of several off trail hikes from BA campground.

No, but will research.

the ice thingies you need are called "Yaktrax" they sell them at the store there as well as the regular instep crampons. Mountaineering/Ice full-on crampons are way overkill.

Dayhikes from BA include

going up to Ribbon Falls (try upper ribbon, turn right across bridge).

I'd really recommend going up the Clear Creek trail to the Tonto Platform -- at least up to the 2nd overlook (past the rock bench).

Also, there is a steep trail out the back end of Campsite #1 up to Utah Flats. I've been partway up just to recconoiter for a future time to go all the way up.

Have a great time! Don't bail!

PS you can see all the trails in Google Earth

Yes, potable water is available at BA campground and at PR (also tea, hot chocolate, wine and beer). If you can get a meal at PR, do it. You will not regret it.

Yes, they have weather reports at PR and BA.

Not sure how many people you have, but when I was there last Jan 1-3, I boiled a lot of tea as well as hot meals and completely used up one small canister for my Snowpeak gas stove (similar to Pocket Rocket). I would imagine two of the larger canisters would be sufficient with some safety factor if you have a group of 4-6. Depends on how much tea/hot choc. you make!

Open Roads Tours based at the Amtrak Station in Flagstaff operates daily shuttles from FLG/PHX and FLG/GC. There are a lot of shuttles on the Phoenix leg but fewer going to GC, so you have to figure out if you can make the connection. Their website is here: http://www.openroadtours.com/shuttles.htm

Coming up from PHX they stop at Camp Verde for a break. There are a multitude of good fast food places there, so you can plan on eating there if you are hungry but rushed making connections at PHX.

If you want to avoid driving, it's a good way to go. I have used them one time and can recommend them.

Openroad Tours is one of two that was recommended to us. Here is the other. We used them from GC to Flagstaff last year. They stop over in Flagstaff at the train station.
Flagstaff Express

Just got back from the G.C. It was an unplanned diversion on the way home from a trip to Zion and Bryce Canyon National Parks. Didn't do extensive hiking because it was a family vacation and our dogs were with us. But we did manage a short foray down the Hermit Trail while the Doxies waited in the car.

The conditions in the first mile or so on 01/02/09 were a combination of bare rock and dirt, well consolidated snow and very slick, solid ice. None of us had traction devices so we turned around at a shaded area where the trail was very icy. South Rim trails have a generally northern exposure so meltoff comes very slowly in places.

In March of '06 I descended the South Kaibab the morning after a heavy dump. I was one of the first few hikers on the trail that morning. I had my Stubai's with me but they were overkill (came in handy later on the North Rim) and I was wishing for a set of Yaktrax or similar. The trail was not especially icy due to the new snow but when I came back up the B.A. a couple of days later it was very icy in places.

One possibility is that you may end up in a snow trough created by hundreds of hikers on the trail before you. All those feet will have compacted the snow and made the bottom of the trough very icy. But the good news is, if you slip the trough itself will act as a guardrail and you won't likely go very far.

I've had very good luck with Kahtoola Microspikes. Never used them in the G.C. (although I wished I had them) but I have used them on similar "luge run" trails with confidence.

I highly recommend poles with snow baskets for any icy trail. Have a good time and I hope the conditions don't spoil your plans

I already picked up some in step crampons mainly because of negative comments about Yaktrax in that type of terrain not holding up well. Plus I checked
out a set at a local REI and they didn't inspire confidence. I have added Ribbon Falls to our hikes and it appears it is appx. 6 miles? Seems it's doable as a day hike but how difficult? Thanks for other ideas. With today's 7 day forecast it looks
like great hiking. Bailing is for paddlers!

Weather report looks real good for our arrival and descent! Either way we're prepared to have a great time. Thanks for sharing your ideas and experiences.



"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sail. Explore. Dream. Discover. "
Mark Twain

That's great news. I wish I was going now but I will have to wait until Sep. I am hiking down a few days early, then meeting a river trip for the lower canyon. I plan to stay at BA and do the Ribbon Falls and/or Clear Creek. I will be waiting to read your trip report.

Here is a excerpt from a REI review of MSR Dragonfly cook stove, of which I own, and have become concerned about this very issue - having my empty fuel (and cleaned) bottles confiscated by TSA. $15. a piece, ouch! Maybe check one and carry one to see which one makes it?

"The only problem I've ever encountered is getting my fuel bottles back to my home station. I thought the fuel bottles being empty and clean would be enough... but the canadian airport gave me a hard time anyway and i lost my fuel bottles. So if you pick this one up, check up on airline rules/regs before you go anywhre with it."

I would say that it will be subject to the interpretation of the individual TSA agent. I have had re-chargable batteries confiscated at the gate, after passing through security, coming home from Mexico. At least here you have rights. Whether you have time to argue with them at that time is another question. I would definitely have a "plan B", like a canister stove.

Here are the TSA Rules

I've had the same concern about losing my bottles or stove, so when I go to the GC in Feb, I'm taking the train!
However my approach on several occasions now when flying, has been to thoroughly wash and dry my bottle and then store the lid and bottle seperately. I figure it's harder for them to think there is any fuel in it when it doesn't even have a lid. Also, people use bottles like that for water, too, so don't even keep it in proximity to your stove. The stove itself worries me more.
Really, my only problem with TSA so far has been that I keep forgetting to put my pocket knife into my checked backpack, instead of my carry-on. I've lost several knives that way!

So fellopacker, how was the trip?

Cost for travel, lodging, and food for three getting to the Grand Canyon from Texas? Approximately eighteen hundred dollars.

In a world of six billion people, the ability of just three people to dine on hot home made spaghetti during sunset on Plateau Point in forty degree weather, all the while sharing the magnificent view with three condors perched on various ledges? Priceless!

Sorry I can not give a more detailed report at this time but suffice it to say it all went as planned and hoped for. I did roll the dice with packing my camp stove and it all arrived,
but shipped it back via UPS. ($11.) The weather was ideal – high 20's to mid 50's. Traffic
down and up was minimal and we practically had the BA camp to ourselves one day. Folks were doing a good job of bringing in the rainbow trout too.(gear for next time) We had to chain up going down and ascending, mostly packed snow and occasional ice. Did make it up to RF and while it was beautiful, we turned around after snacking 30 minutes due to clouds moving in - we were under-geared. Wanted to hike CC but decided on
a much needed R&R (did the River Trail instead) Descending the SK reminded me of a former massage therapist I used to see – I became aware of muscles I never knew existed.

I am trying to catch up on some geology books I brought but never took time to read and am half way through The Man Who Walked Through Time. And while my reality is slowing creeping back, when I stop and close my eyes and listen, I can hear the sounds of the canyon – wonderful silence!

I will be checking back in from time to time but now have to pay the piper. Out of 700 plus pics. I will find a few to post when schedule allows.

Outstanding. Sounds like you were bitten by the bug. I know I can't wait to go back.