Llama

If I go backpacking and a friend carries my gear is it still backpacking?
What If I go backpacking and my friend is a Llama?

I talked to a woman today about adopting a "rescued" Llama from a rehabilitation farm. (found it on Craigslist)She say Tommy Bahama is a happy wonderful friendly Llama that likes dogs, doesn't have mean bone in his body and a 3 foot high 2 rail fence keeps him in. They don't need to see the vet, grow valuable fur, eat weeds or hay and only require food and water to leave them for a week vacation.
I'll admit that I'd rather ride a horse with a bedroll on the back, but Llama camping is all the rage here in central Oregon. Obviously you would not want to become separated from your Llama if he had your pack, but he doesn't need a sleeping bag and probably a mosquito headnet would work on him as I've seen great photos from the Andes of Llamas wearing hats. A Llama doesn't weigh as much as a horse, so you might not need to hobble him before sleeping to keep him from standing up and stepping on you. Hmm Llamas have toes, horses have hoofs...

Anyway if you only had a 40 degree sleeping bag and it dropped below freezing you just snugggle up to your Llama. I understand the cowboy technique was to hobble the horse and cover him with an oiled water proof tarp then get under it with him.

Did I mention "ice chest"? As in fresh eggs, bacon, cold drinks. The ice chest on one side balances the pack on the other. Anybody know where I can a Llama pack?

Oh what the heck, he could carry my tiny Husqvarna chain saw ( about 9-10 pounds) too and we could have a nice fire.
Jim

Don't llamas spit at you when they are unhappy?

Mouse,
Most emphatically NO.
Some Llamas spit, but Tommy does not. Some Llamas will attack dogs and some bite. Llamas like all animals have personalities and like dogs, some bite and some would never bite.
The gal with the Llama said this particular Llama is well behaved and has the rescued animal affection for its rescuer.
She guaranteed that he wouldn't hurt my dog.
Jim

Seriously, how much weight can a llama carry? How much of its pack has to be llama gear and food?

You already have this thing? Heck, why not? I think a pack animal would be huge fun! Wonder how they do in the desert? What are their water needs?

A new supply of scat for your dog! What could be better?

Aimless, Mouse, Dryer

OK if it were my Llama, and I most likely will not be able to take this one until after I move so it will probably be gone, however I am exploring the idea since in my neck'o the woods, there are a lot of Llamas and people are giving away livestock. I can buy a nice 13 year old horse thats fully trained for $500 here.

Janet said Tommy could carry 75 pounds. Hes taller than her by quite a bit she says, (I haven't met her yet)so this is no little animal, several hundred pounds of two toed rock hugger. They require only water. She said "oh Tommy would love to be able to graze, I feed him hay". So anyw Anyway I could feed the Llama the stuff to make its scats undesireable to my dog.ay about all I knows it that my garden is fertilised with Llama dung and you have to shave em once a year. They do not require special diets, vitamins, nor vetrinarians. Sounds almost too good, like the helium baloon tied to your pack idea.
Jim they eat weeds - I could rent him out.

http://llamapacks.com/

You might check out these guys Jim. I don't have any personal experience with llamas but we have loads of them around Kamloops. They were all the rage some years ago. I often thought it would be fun to hike with a llama. Somehow though, I think my dog is a whole lot more fun.

Howie

Howie
COOL
So you guys should read this story about the first Llama packing trip allowed by the National Parks - to the top of Mt Whitney. It really says a lot about the animals. They have like two fingered feet more like hands than hooves, like they grab the rock and feel it until they get a good hold, just like a human rock climber - duh. Their feet have sweat glands and they don' need rain coats or sleeping bags.
Jim

http://llamapacks.com/sunny.html
Jim

Next time I see one of our park rangers I will ask if they have any regulations about llamas in our provincial parks. I have never seen anyone camping with a llama or horse either for that matter. In Manning Park where I am headed as I write this they do have restrictions on horses. Horses are only allowed on certain trails. Just how that affects llamas I have no idea.

Howie

Jim,

Have you reflected on Tommy's recent stint in "rehab"? Do you fear his condition may be a liability on the trail? I mean, you don't want him falling off the wagon mid-way. Make sure you store your flask somewhere he can't get to with his toes.

In Argentina, we have a saying, "hay una llama que te llama". The word llama in Spanish also means "to call", hence the translation: "there is a llama calling you". It was a popular publicity campaign by a telephone company at one point.

Another plus: the llama's scat is highly combustible.

Saludos,
Gaucho

We met a string of llamas on our recent trip through Matterhorn Canyon in Yosemite. There were four or five of them, plus a handler, and four hikers. The hikers each carried a small pack, but I have to say that they looked as if they were suffering a lot more than the llamas. THe llamas looked, calm, comfortable, and cool.

No so, the hikers!

I'm a (self-declared)llama expert 'cause My Lady has six of 'em.

Llamas may not need to see a vet but they do have needs. Depending where you are they should receive vaccination against West Nile. They also should be treated for parasites periodically. And usually they need periodic toe clipping. In all of this they're just like horses and all of this can be done by the llama owner if so inclined. Still, responsible animal owners have their animals seen by a vet at least once a year.

My Lady trained three of the llamas to pack. The training consisted of putting a pack on 'em and walking 'em on lead down the road. In other words, they were 'naturals.' YMMV To my dismay, I haven't got My Lady and her llamas out on the trail. Even with a very light load two of her llamas could approach 100lbs or more of 'gear'. That would be a whole lot of good eatin'.

Of interest around here is the unproven anecdote that llamas are grizzly repellent. I know of one case where llamas in a Canada camp were taken by a grizzly. Otherwise, most seem to agree that grizzlys don't visit campsites occupied by llamas. One theory is that the bear doesn't recognize the scent and stays away. Of course, this runs opposite the theory that grizzlys are curious... Anyhoo, the anecdotal evidence suggests grizzly stay away from llamas...in general.

I would think NP's would have no problem with llamas if the same parks allow horses and mules, e.g., Yellowstone. Certainly, the llamas have far less impact on the trails than the equines. A llama trek in Yellowstone...that's got to be too cool!!

My Lady's llamas spit...at each other. A couple of 'em spit at her...once. She tied a neckerchief around their face and when they tried to spit at her again they covered their own muzzle with the goo. One session with the neckerchief was about all it took for them to understand that you don't spit at the lady that brings the hay.

FB

Everybody,
thanks for your input.

Balsa, so I guess they let them in the park? however Matterhorn Canyon is outside the park isn't it? In Hoover Wilderness?

Gaucho, do you have direct experience with Llamas in Argentina?

Fiddle - thanks, I don't live in grizzly country frtunately, but I'm wondering if sasquatch would hurt a Llama since they chase down deer and bear? Warm Springs Reservation is near here. One indian woman called the reservation police when she saw a bigfoot chasing a black bear. Later the police found the shredded body of a black bear.

Maybe sasquatch also don't recognise Llama scent and combined with human scent might stay away.

I'll remember the neckerchief thing. Perhaps one of the best parts of this idea - my wife loves to backpack, but refuses to carry a pack, a Llama could carry hers and mine at the same time, and it would lessen the load on my bad knee.
Jim

Not directly, but my grandfather had a finca and raised llamas on his land. Never got the opportunity to experience it.

I'd never own a Llama, but I'd use/own pack goats...

Brad
lease tell about pack goats, as I can get goats too.
Jim

That would be so awesome!

Here's a little reading...

http://www.northwestpackgoats.com/
http://www.highuintapackgoats.com/
http://www.summitpackgoat.com/
http://www.napga.org/
http://www.goatpacking.com/

In the Winds a week ago, I ran across two guys in their late 50's who had been bping together for quite some time and were old friends from grade school, even though one lives in Pinedale, WY and the other still in NH. They had two llamas, I guess borrowed or rented and said they were herd animals so you need at least two at just about all times. On their trip, at one point, one of the critters was ahead with one of the guys and got too far away for the other llama so started crying. The one was pretty gentle, but a little timid.

MAtterhorn Canyon is INSIDE Yosemite....you have to go over Mule Pass out of Piute Canyon to get back to the Hoover Wilderness.

So I assume these boys had permits for the llamas. I'd sure prefer them over horses on ANY trail.

The family of my daughters best friend in junior high had llamas.

They need physical conditioning. You can not take them on a week long trip once a year and leave them in the pasture the rest of the year.

They need socialization. You need to spend time with them to get the behavior you want.

You need to pull a trailer. Forget key exhange hikes and shuttles.

They need a little "sweet grain" when worked, but they also need time to graze. I can hike more hours per day then they can.

I still have a standing offer to take llamas out, but never do.

Jim, if you'll hike with a white stick, wear sunglasses, and keep your Llama or packgoat on a leash, you could probably hike with it anywhere you want. Just sayin'.

In the Big Bend, a packgoat might come across as lion candy. The lions have been known to stalk horses, but there has never been an attack that I know of.

I did notice that while at Zion National Park, Llamas were not allowed. Horses were allowed in parts of the park, but they specifically listed llamas as not okay.

I like Llamas and alpackas, but the husband always smiles and says "Great, I hear they taste a lot like chicken."

<sigh>

Heather

I'm a big fan of using a pack animals, and I think they've been overlooked by backpackers for far too long now. That's why I have my burros

Here's some priceless info on burros. I found it online at Virginia Tech's "Bureau of Public Secrets" in a book called "CAMPING IN THE WESTERN MOUNTAINS" and Jim, the last paragraph on the subject should really spark your interest on the possibilities of using burros and llamas for camping

Thanks Bill,
That was some interesting reading. I'm a good rider, but don't really know much about horses, never having kept them. Remember Earthlings woes came from a horse crushing his hand when he dropped a horseshoe and bent down to get it. Burros are another form of live stock that I can get for next to nothing here. Do you burro camp?
Jim

food, I think a pickup with sides and a tailgate would suffice if you had a ramp for him to walk up.
Jim

Yeah, but so does Jim!

BF

Yes, people, he's SERIOUS....

BF

So far I've only hiked and camped in forest behind our house with the burros. I have a two-horse trailer, but no tow vehicle right now. But the burros are ready for a longer trip out, and so am I.

My burros, "Lewis" and "Clark", are "Sicilian donkeys" . They're tiny, often call "Miniature Donkeys". They're only about 36" high at the shoulder and they weigh around 400 lbs, so you could say that they are really "Ultralight" Pack Animals".

I load them with about 50 lbs (including their 10 lb pack saddle, so about 40 lbs of gear). Some people say they can carry more, I've read from 25% to 45% of their body weight, but I limit it at around 10-15% right now.

I was actually looking into the latest ultralight backpacking gear and techniques when it occurred to me that I might look into how the old timers managed to go so far with so much more weight than I was carrying. I found that Burros played a big part in that.

When I found the "Mini" burro I knew I found the perfect pack animal to combine modern lightweight backpacking gear with. This is what I've been working on with my burros.

I've made my own pack saddles and harness rigging, and I use a pair of JanSport daypacks for "Panniers" (saddle bags). This set up can use some refining, but it's working better than I'd expected for my first crack at it.

I load them with the same gear I backpack with and take them mostly off trail bushwhacking around the forest.

I can tell you that they love it. They come running when they see a halter in my hand and stick their noses right into it. They stand patiently when I put their saddle and pack on and follow me as far as I will take them.

They get a little anxious when I tie them up to a line or tree, but they're still young and need more time out with me to get used to that.

I am actually a little surprised that I am pretty much alone in using the Sicilian donkey for backpacking. I don't find much on it when I look for it. I guess I just have to get Lewis and Clark out on the trails for it to catch on

I ran into these fellows (ladies?) on the JMT a few years back.

Trailrunner, thanks, thats way cool...
Jim

Thanks Bill,
photos of your packs and donkeys?
So all the stuff I read on Donkeys talked about the larger breeds but basically where extolling the classic Mexican burro for inteligence and dog like behavior, and they are the smallest of the standard size I guess. interesting that you use a miniature breed and they still weigh 400 pounds. at 1/8th body weight a 50 pound pack is the equivalent of a 12.5 pound pack on a 100 pound human.

So whats involved with raiseing sicilian donkeys? Would one be happy if he had 2 people and a dog to talk to. Pretty much whatever animals we adopt will share our lives. We never knew how a dog would become one of the family. She talks to us...

I'll admit however that at this point I am leaning towards the Llama. I called the ranger station and Llamas and pack goats are both welcome in Three Sisters Wilderness.

We saw wild (feral) donkeys in Sheldon Game preserve in NW Nevada and around he Vigin Valley opal mines. We have a gov't green forerunner and when we would see a herd and stop, they would approach us. Moms with little ones stayed back and the largest males came up to see if we had any food or traquiliser darts.

Finally: What about miniature horses? I can get them too.
Jim

Came across two lots of Llamas in WA . One on the PCT, the other in the Olympic NP
Both lots were very well behaved and their owners were having a good time with them.



Franco

These are a few years old, but here's a pic of Lewis and I standing at the gate to the backyard.



Here's one of the packsaddles I made.



My donks are probably closer to 350 than 400 lbs, and can be expected to carry 70 lbs with no problems. I don't work them everyday, so less is better for now.

They're herd animals and do best with at least on other donkey around. That's really why I got two. Clark was still baby when I got him and the two hang close together. Right now they're in the pasture with our farm dog, and some chickens and cats. They all get along fine.

Donks are low maintenance. I give them each one cup of sweet grain and a flake of hay in the evening. More than that and they'd get fat.

Mini horses don't really have the same gentle disposition as burros. They can be pretty ornery and I don't think they'd be good as a pack animal.

Llamas are supposed to be great pack animals. The woman I got my donks from had a Llama in a pasture with over 30 little donks. It was a big male, and he was a badass. He really only liked her and the donks, and he gave me the evil eye when I got close to the fence he was standing behind. I could tell he was thinking how much fun it would be to knock me on my rear, but I never gave him the chance.

She also had a stud burro that was every bit as mean as her llama all fenced off on his own few acres. He was only 32 inches tall at the shoulders and was snarling at me the whole time I was there. He didn't even like her. He had one thing on his mind, how to get to the pasture where all those female donks were at, and he would have stomped, bit, and kicked anything that got in his way.

My burros are both clipped, and at a pretty young age too. That makes a difference with burros, bulls, and horses, I don't know about llamas.

Here's a pic of both Lewis (left) and Clark. You can see the cross on Clark's back and front shoulders:

Here is an educational video containing little known facts about the llama.

Bill, what about vet visits, ferrier? Same as horses or way less?

I think My Lady developed her interest in llamas when we were in Alaska in the mid-80's. No matter when or where, I'm paying for it now.

She met one woman who transported her two, rather large, llamas in a 'van'...remembered as a VW Bus. The animals would step in and, as soon as the vehicle started moving, would lay down (kush). She also knew of a state senator who kept her two llamas in the house...they apparently enjoyed relaxing by the fireplace but then, who doesn't in Alaska?

A possible reason for Zion NP allowing horses but not llamas (hhavel's post) may be because of the horses themselves. It is common for horses to bolt or otherwise react with fear/shock/upset when coming upon a llama. That can cause a lot of problems on a trail, particularly if there's a string of horses. The Zion NP prohibition may be a safety rule. The horse-llama interaction is a recognized problem in this area and My Lady's horse-people friends have asked her to visit with her llamas to condition their horses. Her own horses (yeah...she has them too ) pretty much ignore the llamas and vice versa.

The bad ass llama (billstephenson's post) may be indication of another trait of llamas...they are great herd guardians. They have great success in keeping coyotes, loose/feral dogs and sometimes, wolves at bay.

FB

Indeed, the woman that owned the llama said it watched over her herd of donkeys and told a story about the llama chasing off three big dogs that had make their way into her pasture. The dogs belonged to a neighbor, who she had asked several times to keep on their property. The neighbor, who had a "My dogs can go where they want to" attitude, and her dogs, found out that was not at all true.

The llama was also very protective of it's owner. Even her husband wouldn't go near the llama when she was in the pasture. He told me, "The donkeys and the llama belong to her. I don't mess with them at all". She told me the llama was a male, and while he liked most all women, he hadn't ever met a man he thought much of.

It was clear by watching him how different he felt about the two of us. The llama obviously adored her. He was nothing but "Googoo eyes" whenever he looked at her, but it was all "evil eyes" for me. I was pretty impressed with how much expression could be read in his face alone.

I have the vet come once a year to check the donks. He does a "Coggins" test, and that's about it.

Since the donks don't get shoed, I don't call a ferrier in. I normally just use a rasp to keep their hooves shaped. When the donks are active they don't need much hoof work. In the Spring, when the ground is softer and there's lot's of grass growing they do tend to get long pretty fast and I've had to learn to clip them before filing them, if I wait too long to get to them.

I generally give them a nice long brushing afterwards. They have limited patience with me working on their hooves, but will stand there and let me brush them for as long as I can stand it. I don't even use a halter when I'm just brushing them, the two of them come over and wrestle to be first in line for that.

That's funny. Like big dogs. Thanks Bill. I have a dogless dog pen that I built that could hold livestock if needed. Made it to take the heavy snow we can get which will tear a fence up. I put railroad ties every 10' and 'T' posts between those, holding up livestock wire fencing with a pole, top rail. The snow doesn't touch it now, just time and rot on the top rail.

Here are the ones we met between Burro and Mule Passes....maybe there should be a Llama Pass, too?

[img]http://picasaweb.google.com/balzaccom/TwinLakesToBensonLakeAndMatterhornCanyon#5503458276531465986[/img]

Bill,

Do they breed mules with mammoth jackstock burros and draft mares?

food
I'll bet if they could make 2,000 pound mules someone would have. I mean a "war mule" would have been far more effective than a "war horse" as they are tougher and smarter. (maybe a war horse is better being stupid?)

I don't remember which but maybe the Donkey has 64 chromosomes and the horse has 62 chromaosomes so they they rarely produce fertile, or complete "species" status. Maybe the size of the draft horse precludes efficient operation with a mix of chromosomes???

Llamas - I'm starting to get a picture of Llama atitude. I think I like them. I hear they can be VERY protective and I'm thinking what 600 pounds of angry agile beast runs up to you and kicks you with 2 sharp nails on 2 toed feet - so whats different from being chased by a dinosaur except for 3 toes? OK one with a small mouth maybe?
Jim

Sure do. We have some pretty big Mules here in Missouri, they are the "State Animal".

Here's a snippet from the "The American Donkey and Mule Society":



I rode a mule on trails in the Sequoias when I was young and I liked him better than the horses we took on that trip. I also got to ride a Percheron on some trails in Arkansas. He was a blast to ride, and gentle as a lamb too. He did make me feel kind of like a mosquito sitting a football though

In the words of Bill Murry. I caddied for the lama once, and at the end of the round he tried to stiff me.But I said Hey Lama! Pay up your not gonna stiff me. He replied I can not offer monetary compensation my son but I can offer you Total Concousness. So Hey I got That going for me Now! And Thats pretty good I Think!

I did a backpack trip last month in the ID Sawtooths. On August 10th, our 7-person group camped by some llamas. The 2 males were very quiet all night. Hopefully this picture works. You can see my zpack hexamid tent in the background.

And as a side note, that tent performed very well again in hard thunderstorms.




-Barry

Llamas and donkeys are used here in Deep East Texas to protect goats and sheep from feral dogs & coyotes.

They are most effective.

A lot of folks also use the standard guard dog breeds in conjunction with the Llamas and donkeys. As long as they all grow up together, they get along great.

Llamas and horses don't mix though, based on my experience.

It's not your experience that counts, it's the horses'.

Horses get along just fine with llamas once they get use to them. Until then, there can be some panic by the horses which, if on a narrow trail with a string, can be a 'problem.' On occasion our neighbors will bring their horses over or, more commonly, ask our llamas to come visit so that the neighbors' horses can be acclimated to llamas.

As for guard duty... Having just spent a total of eight hours on the road to and from Yellowstone I came to realize...I seldom see guard dogs with a flock of sheep but I often llamas out in the field with them. In my part of MT it seems llamas are the much more common guard.

In any case, My Lady's three horses and six llamas share a pasture and the barn with no issues. But I've never seen them attending the same party...

FB

I think a Llama would be helpful to your journey if you have one~ so just go with it, you backpacking would be great!

We had horses, llamas and goats all in the same fields. No one ever bothered anyone. We don't have the horses any more, just llamas, goats and sheep. I always wanted to train the llamas to carry a pack but I haven't even had time in the past few years to get them used to walk on a lead. The two we have now are getting pretty old to do any training. We had two young ones die last year that would have been better suited for learning new tricks.

sjohnny...How do your lamas do with your dog. The ones I've run into don't seem to like mine.

sk

In general, llamas don't like canines. One's own llamas with one's own dog may be an exception but, personally, we keep ours separate or very, very close and under our control. But then, we have a group of llamas and only one dog...

Llamas do well as guards against coyotes and could even work against wolves. But in the anecdotes I've read, llamas don't handle pack aggression well. Hence their general success against coyotes and their general failure and fatality when facing wolves.

FB

The dogs I have now don't go out in the field unless they're with me and Milo (the V) tends to stay away from the llamas so they don't care - he's more interested in birds and rabbits. As long as the dogs keep their distance the llamas are fine - they keep an eye on them though. There have been a couple of instances where I was pretty sure the llamas were going to kill a couple of our other dogs who just wouldn't back off - one was a min-pin and another was a yorkie.

We had an incident with two large dogs (one about 80 and the other about 100lbs) about a year ago that had killed a couple of goats over the course of a week. The goats had gone off away from the herd so were unprotected. I was at home when they made the last attack they ever will. When I got out there the llamas were doing a pretty good job of keeping them occupied and away from the smaller animals. You could hear the thud when their feet made contact with the dogs. The problem with them being in the middle of it was it made it harder for me to get a good shot.

I have also had my butt kicked on two separate occassions by llamas (long stories). The first time I couldn't get out of bed for a day and missed the following day of work. The second time I missed a day of work. They are powerful animals. I'm a pretty good sized guy - 6'4" 2somethingmorethanI'dlike (and a defensive tactics instructor) but these animals are 350 to 500 lbs of muscle and they'll tear you up when they get riled. Most of the time they're very gentle.

I used to be a llama guide here in Mt. We would seldom get more than 5-6 miles of aggressive hiking out of them per day. Anything further than that and you might have a 300 + lb wool rug laying in the trail. Once they lay down, it can be hard to get them up again. As for as weight, we would load them with between 40-80 lbs dependent on their age and sizes. They are interesting creatures, not the most friendly pets though.
The spitting is way over blown. They will spit at each other, but the only time I ever had one spit at me was when they were sick and we were trying to treat.