serious question: Toilet paper!

I am very interested in taking a NOLS course, but I do not know how I would survive practicing their minimalist bathroom procedures. It seems that they have a "leave nothing behind" motto, which encompasses toilet paper. I think that if I had to wipe with pine cones and twigs for two months I would be in serious pain by the end of my journey. Is there a semi comfortable way to survive outside without toilet paper?

I can't think of one but I know people who will put there used tp in ziplocs and carry it back out with them. I've seen biodegradable tp too but have never used it.

Leave nothing behind means if you pack it in, you pack it out. Not sure if there's a substitute for TP other then leaves and pinecone. In certain area's of the Sierra's, it mandatory you pack out your used TP. Mt. Whitney supplies Wag bags for more then just TP, and that mandatory as well. Kinda hard to get past our old ways of just bury and forget, but it's for good reason.

You could try nettles or poisen oak...

Teej

Its true, most of the people who inhabit this planet do not know what a roll of toilet paper is . As a skier I can attest to the effectiveness of snow, ;)but then its a form of water, so without toilet paper you will want water and soap, biodegradable soap. Otherwise you might wanna invest in "scent lock" hunting clothes that keep your human scent in.

Cowboys had 2 bandannas, a red and a blue. One they wore around their neck, the other was for washing his rear end.

Enjoy your trip. A bandanna is sustainable and soft. Heck take 2, they're light.
Jim YMMV

That's interesting, Jimshaw. I've heard that in the "old days" people used to use old towels, hankerchiefs, etc.

Supposedly there's TP made for mobile homes that completely dissolves in water. Technically I don't know if it's biodegradeable.

Do an archive search on the subject and you should come across about a brazillian posts on the subject.

In a nutshell, and Jimshaw's right, learn to use water, soap, local leaves/grasses, and you'll be on par with most of the world. If your hike is long enough, you'll eventually run out of TP, so why not learn to do without from the get-go. You'll save several ounces from you pack weight.
I do sometimes carry a 8" "washrag" cut from that yellow 'camp-towel' stuff from Walmart's camping section. It dries out quickly and is used just like your wash cloths at home. Lean what "lambs ear" is. Soft moss too.
I personally can't think of anything grosser to put in your pack than a weeks worth of used TP, baggie or not...ick.

I don't know about the soft moss suggestion. I don't like the idea of ripping up something that takes a fair bit of time to grow just for the purpose of cleaning myself.

Depends on where you are. In a national park or protected area, no. But then you are digging through top soil that took many years to form, for your cat hole.
Around here, plants like lambs ear grow like weeds and pulling off a leaf or two isn't a problem. Use what you want, but don't kid yourself about TP being an 'environmental friendly' solution.

My issue is definitely not with a leaf or two. A couple of leaves missing from your average tree will go unnoticed. A clump of missing moss is a bit more obvious and takes a longer amount of time to grow back, that's all.

Jim, your use of emoticons is out of control!!! Maybe a side effect of using too much snow?

Maybe someone needs to come up with an attachment for a water bottle or bladder to "hose" yourself off with. Something that detachs so it can be put away or even a light, separate bladder with a simple way to pressurize it so you can hit the right spot. Could even be hung around your neck to use elevation to create some pressure, but a longer hose then what comes with a bladder may be needed. Don't have time to grab mine to check its length.

I use a dedicated .5L platy with a spout. It works just fine by either "shooting" water where it needs to go or pouring it down my arm. Add a drop of Bronner's, and I'm all set.

Jim, 2 bandanas probably a long forgotten practice sounds like it's much better than a corn cob. My next trip out I'm using bandanas

The backpacker's bidet? Now I've seen everything.

Do you use purified or unpurified water with that bidet?

Yeah, that sounds like smart-aleck question, but it's really intended to be serious. Since you're introducing water near the opening to the intestines, would unpurified water offer an increased risk of introducing potential intestinal bugs/infections/parasites? I don't know nearly enough about physiology and biology to know if this is a risk or not.

Ever go swimming in a lake/stream/river/ocean? Same difference and TP is anything but sterile. It's abrasiveness can cause raw skin, and now you are into the blood stream!
"Death caused by overuse of toilet paper" is what your death certificate will read.

Good points, Paul - I should have thought of the obvious.

The only difference I can think of is that, when swimming in that lake or stream, the opening is, well, closed; when cleaning, maybe not so much, er, closed? (And I do remember a time, in the early 70's, when the Gulf was so polluted at Biloxi, Mississippi, that the Air Force allowed us on the beach, but made the water off limits. (Of course, that's not your typical wilderness lake, either.)

Awkward phrasing, I'll admit; and, again, I'm not informed enough to know how this physical process works.

Take 20 prunes and call me in the morning.:)

Duane: I love prunes as much as the next guy - but what you're suggesting would REALLY open things up!

I taught with NOLS from 2001-2003.

When a NOLS course goes out, usually with about 15 hikers, 12 students and 3 instructors, they take one roll of TP with them for emergencies only.

The rest of the time, you make due with natural TP. My first choice if it is available: SNOW. Cleans as it invigorates. Very effective.

Second: western pine cones. They are thoroughly different from those I grew up with in the east. No sharp edges and they are basically brushes that work quite well. I've actually known students to fill a plastic bag with the softest, "downiest" pinecones they can find at each campsite so they have a ready supply of natural TP.

In Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Oregon, and Washington, I was always able to find decent wiping material. It just takes a bit of practice.

Back east, it's tougher. Rear-ripping pine cones and crumbling leaves Bad s*** in more ways than one...

I use filtered water in my backcountry "bidet," but only because I use a gravity filter and it's the easiest way to fill it.

I managed to convince my 2 girls, 12 and 15, to go paperless on a 5 day hike in Canyonland a couple of weeks ago. The 12-year-old did very well, and the 15-year-old just didn't go for 5 days. She hit the potty at the trailhead when we finished and was just fine!

I try to pack out as much TP as I can on hikes. I have a system I have developed over the years for garbage. Pretty it isn't, it works though.

I don't like going TP-less. So I am willing to carry it both ways.

A family survived by giving each other a enema of untreated water, as that is all they had. I guess the lower intestine isn't vulnerable at that point. Does anyone else remember that story?

That was sea water enemas. Their ship had sunk and they were confined to a rubber life raft.

If you use mullein leaves, you won't mind so much. Mullein is a plant with a very tall woody stalk and buds on the top part. The leaves toward the ground are thick and like velvet. Mullein grows like a weed out west and is easy to spot because it is usually about 5 ft. tall. Some people like mullein tea as a medicine, it tastes better than chamomile. Chiggers like the moss, by the way.

Teej

Besides TP, living for extended periods of time on unsupported trips, means taking very good care of your body. You must be as clean and well lubricated as possible. You cannot afford to get sick, carry vitamins including C. Carry a towel. You will want to leave every thing behind except what makes you feel good (like maybe down socks). I like "no rinse" body bath, but I hate their shampoo and cream rinse. I can take a bath in 6 ounces of hot water and a splash of no rinse and it really does cut the smell and makes me feel clean and afterwards I am willing to get into a clean sleeping bag with myself.
Of course everything eventually runs out. Then you come home.

I think if you practiced at home, jump from the toilet into the shower? Anyway I would certainly practice before committing to it. Just My $.02
Jim

For a bidet, you could just stomp on your hydration bladder. LOL.

Or you could simply scoot yer bo-bo across the grass like my neighbors dog! Dew might help.

Fresh and soft lambs ear leaves, with a light sprinkling of morning dew....Luxury!

Though I was born and raised in the US I'm 1/2 Filipino and have visited the Philippines several times. There is a custom there called "Tabo" and it pertains to washing your hiney after doing the do.

Toilet paper is expensive there and often you won't find any in peoples houses, let alone public loo's. Sometimes, if you are lucky, a spray nozzle like on your kitchen sink will be attached to the plumbing but most often there will be a long handled cup or dipper and a bucket of water. The idea is to use your hand (left hand?) to wash up and then wash your hands afterward with soap.

If you see a long handled cup in a Filipinos bathroom you can be sure they are practicing Tabo.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/782151/tabo_the_toilet_paper_alternative_in.html

Much of the world gets by with washing, or natural materiels.
It's really not that bad, Personally I've found being able
to wash afterwards more important anyway, for me, no amount of
wiping will make me not get "rashy" when I'm hiking all day. so I take a small washcloth ( a square of old Tshirt which stays in a ziploc) or baby wipes. I do usually take TP as well, but if I had to choose one I'd only take the former.

Besides, TP as we know it was only invented in 1880..

129 years is certainly enough for me to get conditioned to its use I know about using leaves (just watch out for the poisin ivy ) or water with a rag or hand. If that was my only choice, I'd make do, but I have the option of TP where I hike and I will continue to use it thank you very much!

My friend, "Camo Bob," sent me a pic of what he's using.

Camo tape? Now that's a different approach. Simply tape up the orifice and don't worry about it anymore. I bet he gains a lot of weight during his hikes!

All I gotta do is eat me one of these, and no toilet paper worries for at least a few days.

They make tp for RVs that will dissolve, you probably meant to say. I used to work at an rv repair shop and I know for a fact that it doesn't dissolve all that well unless you have a substantial liquid in the tank, otherwise it becomes saturated. Generally if it dissolves it will be biodegradeable, because it just falls apart, where as something like a plastic bag doesn't.

In the south... Leaves and cleaning up with water/wet wipe/bandana.

I've been following this thread all along and have a few good laughs and learned some things along the way. But honestly, I never expected the thread to receive this many responses.

They also come with a small package of tissues anyway.

I'm still appalled at the realization that they are scientifically designed to stuff you up.. Sheesh if I have to hike all day constipated my disposition becomes like a bear with a sore butt.. never mind if you then put a mattell machine gun in my hand...

I don't know if constipated is the right word. I never have felt discomfort. I just didn't need to go for a day or two. And when I did, I had the convenience of deciding the best time (like when you have a break, or are near a toilet). It is much better than having the runs when people are shooting at you, or even getting that emergency feeling that you have to go NOW and are no where near a convenient spot. Again, I never have felt discomfort. But, YMMV.

Having no direct experience in the matter, I have to think that if someone were shooting at me, I'd develop the runs pretty quickly, regardless of what I had been eating.

I never used TP, partly bc my first outdoor experience was with OB.

It really isn't that bad--I prefer smooth stones rinsed in a bit of water, or soft (non poison ivy) leaves. And then you don't have disgusting TP in your pack all day.

If you're female I'd still recommend bringing a small cache of baby wipes for the end of the day if you won't be able to wash.

Do you mean spruce cones? I know of no soft pine cones.


[quote=Bearpaw]I taught with NOLS from 2001-2003.

western pine cones. They are thoroughly different from those I grew up with in the east. No sharp edges and they are basically brushes that work quite well. I've actually known students to fill a plastic bag with the softest, "downiest" pinecones they can find at each campsite so they have a ready supply of natural TP.

I am looking at this thread a couple of weeks late but will give a suggestion at the other "end" of the spectrum. And I'll try to keep the puns at a minimum.

Some time back I had lower intestinal problems and among other things (surgical, painful things) my doctor recommended a daily dose of powdered fiber. He said that Americans just don't get enough fiber in their diets and he recommends this to all patients, young and old.

So to make a long story short, after some experimentation to discover the "right" dose for me, it is 1 teaspoon in a glass of water in the morning and a second in the afternoon when I come home thirsty after work.

What I have noticed from this and my point is, my bowel movements are relaxed and easy because the stool is very soft but at the same time it is not wet or sticky. I only use one square of paper because there's just nothing left behind to "wipe" away. More out of habit than anything else. It is very clean.

So there's more than you need to know, sorry for that. But you could try it for a week at home to see what works for you. It takes a couple of days for your system to get used to it and settle down.

A little bit of very judicious shaving may help also.

Andy

I worked for NOLS in the field for 20 years and spent most of my backcountry time without toilet paper. Snow, spruce cones, certain leaves, bundles of soft early pine needles, smooth dry sticks and smooth rocks all have some workability. I always thought that squirrel fur would be the ultimate, but the little buggers are hard to catch with your pants down.

Washing the privates regularly also helps tremendously. Any leftover smears on your butt will turn into diaper rash.

These days I carry TP and wet wipes, pack it in and pack it out. I take three small Ziplocks, one with TP, one with wipes, one for the used goods.

And remember to wash your hands. Fecal-oral contamination is a common cause of intestinal illness in the backcountry and has caused distress to quite a few NOLSies.

I have not used TP in the backcountry for a few years now. Instead, I use a little squirt bottle that once held Campsuds soap. It is, indeed, my backpacker's bidet. I fill it with wild water and just squirt it down my backside after doing the dirty deed. A scrub or two with my left hand followed by rinsing. Wash my hands with biosoap and more water. Leaves you feeling clean and happy!

My guess is you are not clean

Just a thought after reading this entire thread.
I might be wrong but it seems to me like you will do more harm to the environment if you rinse and then use soap(even if it is biodegradable) than if you just use a little tp.

How so? What harm, exactly? The soap I use, (dr. bronners) is vegetable based and literally only a drop or two is used. The water was already there. I can't see it doing any more harm than the chemicals in your poop and pee, along with no telling what else your trip impacts (plastics off-gassing, car exhaust, your own human presence). NOT using TP saves weight, garbage, trees... .
When you wash, you are in fact, cleaner.
After a while, you're going to run out of TP anyway. What then?

The TP and our waste is very degradable. The problem is folks don't cover the cat-hole well enough and some critter will dig up the corpse and scatter it and the TP about the area. Very bad.

Find a large rock roll it over dig the cat-hole deep and neat, the earthen mounds will protect your calves from the dreaded splash back (GI Trots) cover the evidence with the dirt and then cover the dirt with the ground leaves. Finally replace the rock and King TUT will forever be sealed in his tomb.

Like the man said keep it fun...and for gods sake don't crap in a sandwich bag, if you carry your waste on your pack use what we did in the army a large garbage can bag.Much easier to hit the target that way. Like they say "all employee's must wash their hands before leaving."

I use Serac's method. It works fine, sometimes with a little Dr. Bonners. I usually extend it to a general crotch wash; that reduces the 'homeless aroma". A hand wash followed by waterless hand sanitizer completes the job. It beats TP completely.

My shower appliance is a perforated cap for a Platypus flask. With a regular cap, it's just a water bottle.

Well said Pappy.

a bottle and your hand? a bandanna? "smooth stones" and "soft" pinecones? REALLY? I have dropped a deuce many a times in the woods with nothing but what I could find purely out of necessity. I however would NOT go on a trip planning to do this. You can buy rapid-dissolve biodegradable toilet paper for relatively cheap or just use normal toilet paper (its biodegradable!) dig the cat hole deep and far from anything and finally COVER it

well i asked my grandfather who is like 80 now about doin the number 2 in the wood and he told me they would bring tp and burn it after use in the hole rite before he covers it. idk if that goes along with LNT but from what i can tell its not a bad thang to do.

Some burn their TP; some have set the forest on fire doing that. All it takes is a sudden gust of wind to blow the burning TP out of the hole into dry grass or needles. Never do this when the fire danger is high!

Note that animals often dig up the waste for the food particles it contains. When they do that, the TP gets scattered around the landscape. One thing which may help is to take water to the cathole with you, pour some in afterwards and stir the waste and TP with a stick to make a "soup" before covering up the hole. This helps to dissolve the paper.

Or you can pack out your TP, which is what I do and what the rangers prefer you do. I have medical conditions which require the use of TP (actually, I use pieces of paper towel, which are more absorbent) and moist towlettes. After a trip to Turkey, where they have a small hose attached to the toilet to clean up, I tried the squirt bottle method a couple of times. It works fine on a real toilet, but in the backcountry it runs down my legs and into my pants (aargh).

Someone up the thread mentioned mullein. It is pretty plentiful on the front range of the Rocky Mountains and is often called "indian toilet paper" or "cowboy toilet paper". Very soft.

Great Mullein

The TP you buy for home use is not. It's cotton fabric, practically, and it lasts a long, long time. The TP you buy for RVs (with chemical toilets) breaks down rapidly, as does the biodegradable stuff you'll find at sport stores. There's a reason the TP you find in the solar powered bacteria toilets in Yosemite/SEKI is not so soft and thick as the Charmin back home.

I've given up toilet paper both at home and on the trail. There is a great variety of leaves in my yard and they are cheap. May as well practice and save some money while I do it.

Do you have enough space for all the catholes?

In many parks, rangers don't suggest this--they REQUIRE it.

And it is what we do in all cases. WE are SICK of seeing toilet paper in the backcountry. And yeah, it probably started out buried. But it wasn't when we got there.

Thanks.

Just a newbie here reading through the thread laughing. Trivia note: Sears & Roebuck invented the glossy covering for catalogs in the early 20th Century. You can guess why.

Why not just wear a catherter and a bag/diaper? That is what forest rangers should require

I actually find more Kleenex on the trail than TP. And Kleenex is NOT at all biodegradable - that is why you do not put it in a toilet. Those delicate hikers need to learn to "snort" out the snot. The most Keenex I find is between the High Sierra Camps in Yosemite. I really wonder what people are thinking dropping a used Kleenex on the trail? Do the drop it on the floor in their house?

We all know the TP is a luxury, not a necessity. Much of the world's popluation do not use it. Consider it a priviledge to take it. Come on, it is NO BIG DEAL to put it in a plastic bag and carry it out. None of it belongs in the Wilderness, either above ground or below.

Wet wipes and a plastic bag...

Hemorrhoids? Anyone? You surely must use the wet wipes for that, right?

One of my regular hiking spots (it's a day hiking spot) gets heavy human traffic. For some reason there are certain times when toilet and tissue paper collect all over the place. It's pretty disgusting; some of it has obviously been dug up by animals. When it gets that way, I'll wear plastic gloves and bag all I see. There is a few of us that will do this; pick up trash. Otherwise it just stays there.

Just bring a plastic/ziplock bag and carry it out.

Extreme heroism!!!

Amen~!

Sheesh people, you both are making me blush! There are at least four of us picking up stuff, but thanks for the props. Nice to know it's appreciated.