Basic attire and hygiene questions

Your first response may be "any idiot should know that!" but please bear with me ...

1. What type of clothing is appropriate for the Texas Hill Country this week if the forecast is calling for daytime highs in the upper 60s and nighttime lows in the upper 40s? My 16yo son and I are going to do a test hike overnight at Enchanted Rock to try out all our new Christmas toys. Neither of us probably have appropriate clothing as he wears a uniform to school and doesn't have many casual clothes at all (nor do I). Since we have to buy some clothing anyway, I'd like to buy what is most appropriate. I cannot tolerate being cold; he's fine with it.

2. What about changes of clothes? Different outfit for every day? Do you sleep in what you wear during the day?

3 What about personal hygiene, specifically caring for oily teenage skin?

Thanks!

Lesley

I'll address the easiest question (#2) first.

Clean clothes are overrated. Personally, I don't bring extra clothes simply for the pleasure of cleanliness, because clothes tend to be heavy and they add up fast. The only exceptions to this rule are clean sox. I usually bring one extra pair of lightweight wool hiking sox and two extra pair of clean liner sox, reserving one pair of clean liners to wear in bed.

Wet clothes are to be avoided at all times, if humanly possible, but keeping your main clothes dry is a far better strategy than bringing a full change of dry clothes.

Lastly, with lows in the upper 40s it should be pretty easy to get by with just sox and underwear in your sleeping bag - as long as your bag is rated for 35 degrees or lower and you have some insulation under you.

Now for question #1. With daytime highs in the upper 60s, the act of hiking with a pack on should keep you pretty warm during the day. When you stop for rests you might want to pull on a light windbreaker jacket. For pants and shirt, I'd recommend all synthetics, like nylon or polyester. These tend not to absorb moisture and dry quickly. Long sleeves can be pulled or rolled up when you get warm, but short sleeves can't be lengthened when you get chilled.

Because getting cold is an issue for you, the best advice I can give is to think in terms of layers. It is always easier to put on another outer layer, compared to adding an inner layer, because with an outer layer you dono't need to take anything off while putting it on. Always bring a warm hat. You'll probably want gloves, too.

Put on another layer somewhat before you actualy feel cold, especially if you can predict you'll need it soon anyway, as when you have finished setting up camp and your activity level drops, and when night nears.

There's no need to drop a ton of money on new clothes, especially not until you discover how much you love getting on the trail (or don't). Take a good look at what the expensive, specialized clothes look like, then go find cheap equivalents. You can even find useable fleece jackets and such in thrift stores. Target or WalMart will have adequate cheap knock-offs for many items. Save the Patagonia for when you are a fanatical hiker.

These answers should get you started. Others can add more details.

Great advice from aimless! Both of us live in Oregon so are not exactly experts on Texas, though! Since weather forecasts aren't always reliable, I'd expect a bit colder temps and a bit more precipitation than the forecast, just to be on the safe side. You do, after all, want this trip to be enjoyable!

Please note: There is no such thing as a stupid or too-simple question. The only thing stupid is not asking the question!

Have you checked out the articles on the home page of this site? This one on layering is especially relevant to your question.

Start with your closet; look for synthetic fabric items. Most people have something in polyester fleece for insulation. You may own a pair of nylon track pants or a biking or soccer jersey. Most people have some kind of track or running shoes. Unless they have smooth soles, they'll do just fine for hiking. You may have socks in synthetic fabrics or the increasingly popular merino wool. Or a knit hat or a pair of synthetic knit gloves. If you don't, try thrift stores and big box stores (look in their athletic departments).

This next reference is for later on, since it's more than you have time to read for a trip this week! Here is almost an encyclopedia of clothing and gear! At the end of each section is a paragraph on less expensive versions. There's also a Backpacking for Cheap section.

I never take more clothing than I would wear all at one time in the worst weather that can be expected. The only exception is an extra pair of socks. Taking changes of clothing really adds to your pack weight. Everyone else out on the trail is dirty and smelly, too! I generally wear my base layer top and bottoms (once known as long underwear) inside my sleeping bag. I rarely hike in it (the temperature would have to be down close to zero F), and when I wear it in camp it's under my hiking clothing. It's therefore relatively clean and some protection for my sleeping bag. If it gets cold enough (down around the temperature rating of my sleeping bag), I add insulation layers until I may be wearing everything I have inside the sleeping bag.

I subscribe to what I call the "onion principle" when I'm outdoors to regulate my body temperature. I add or subtract thin layers to adjust my body temperature to the environment and my activity. I try hard not to get sweaty--if I start sweating, it's time to remove layers. I put them back on when I stop for rest or to camp so I don't get chilled. The outermost layer is waterproof to keep out the rain.

One good thing about thin synthetic fabric layers is that your body heat will easily dry them while you're hiking, as long as you don't get sweaty.

It's important to keep your insulation dry. Use a dry sack (not a stuff sack with non-waterproof closure) or a plastic bag. The same is true of your sleeping bag. You can line your entire pack with a sturdy plastic bag (such as a trash compactor bag or a construction contractor's trash bag) and, if you close it tightly and check daily for holes (promptly mended with a little duct tape), you can dispense with individual stuff sacks for sleeping bag and clothing.

Re your son's complexion--there are antiseptic towelettes of various kinds. Have him experiment at home as to what kind works best. Maybe he already uses them! He can bundle two for each day into a small zippered plastic bag (snack size sandwich bag will do) and use one each morning and evening--press out as much air as possible and seal the bag tightly. He should take a second small plastic bag for the used ones, since they of course need to be packed out and disposed of in the garbage at home.

Thanks! I hit a Target clearance sale this evening and picked up a few thin neon-colored fleece pullovers and a heavier purple fleece jacket for 10 bucks each for myself. My son has some fleece already so I'll just need to check out Academy tomorrow for track pants and long underwear (aka base layer). Target wasn't accomodating.

Lesley

Check discount type sporting goods stores, too. The time I headed out for a trip and left my hiking pants and shirt at home, I had a choice of convertible nylon supplex pants or nylon exercise pants at Big 5, each for about $10.

I've gotten into the habit of shopping Sierra Trading Post online, putting things in the cart, and leaving them there, then checking each time I get a coupon in my email. The price fluctuates and eventually I get a really great combo of coupons. Like the $544 in gear (sleeping bag, snow goggles, winter boots) I got for $200. The bag is a good one, too, a Marmot EN rated winter bag.

They have a great selection of mid to heavy weight base layers, and frequently other things of use to the backpacker such as rain gear, wind shirts, fleece... I've gotten great deals on Smartwool socks and gloves.

Costco also has wool socks, and I saw Danner boots there the other day. Also they have a fleece balaclava - if you are easily chilled the balaclava can be nice and warm for sleeping in with your mouth/nose covered.

Unless I'm going for more than a few days, my extra clothing usually consists of two pair of socks (dry feet are critical), shirt/fleece for layering, and a hat and gloves. I'm in Northern GA, so the climate is similarly mild.

My hygeine kit consists of toothbrush, toothpaste, baby wipes, and hand sanitizer.

My favorite backpacking clothing that I still use I bought from Academy in SA. It has great nylon zip off pants and fishing shirts for real cheap. They even have a great selection of women's clothes. I would go there before anywhere else.

I second Costco and STP. I assume the stock varies from store to store-probably a lot less winter gear at my local store here in SoCal, but I see tables piled with stuff all the time, so probably something useful there.

I got a great deal before Christmas on a pair of mitts from STP. Had to send them back because of a defect, but very easy to deal with and very good customer service.

I run hot. Combine that with hot weather and I sweat a lot while backpacking; even in snow and cooler temps actually. So I bring something I can switch out when I get to camp. In snow; 2 layers. Under the regular conditions I only need 1 layer because I am wearing 1 layer. The cool thing about desert camping is that you can put your wet shirt out at night and in the morning it is usually dry even though its cold outside. Switch back and you are ready for the next leg. Anyway, that's what I do. I switch out socks every day, rinse the old pair out (if I have the water) and dry them on trail.

Hygiene on trail...what's that? Brushing your teeth and not touching the # 2 you left behind? You can carry these antibacterial liquids with you to help with this. They are small and easy to carry. Otherwise I just wash up every day I can. Sometimes I have to skip a few days due to lack of water. You can bring something specifically to clean your face at the end of the day as well.

sK

Since you are a newbie, I will assume you also need some advise on keeping backcountry hygiene environmentally sound. DO NOT ever put soap or any other chemical in a stream or lake! Rinsing off the sweat with a quick swim or splash of the face is OK. Using the stream or lake as a bathtub is NOT. Do not wash dishes in the streams or lakes. Do all washing with soap or washing of dishes away from water sources (100 feet usually a good rule of thumb) and wash in a spot where surface drainage will not wash the soap into the water sources. If you are camped where there is a fire pit then I usually dump wash water in the pit and spit toothbrushing waste into the pit. Do not leave toothpaste spit on the ground (it leaves an ugly white splotch). Dig a small hole or rub it with your foot until you no longer see it. Burry human waste and do this "business" at least 200 feet from water sources. PACK OUT or BURN ALL toilet paper. A good quality zip lock plastic bag is good for old TP. You can put a tablespoon of kitty litter in it if you worry about smells. PACK OUT all garbage - old plastic bags used in cooking, old moleskin, etc. Eat all your food. If you have to throw out any part of a meal, burry it, just like your poop. Go to the library and check out a book on "leave no trace" camping, or look this up on the internet.

Thanks, Daisy.

Always good to review the fundamentals (pun intended) with people who are new to backpacking

Regarding the zip lock plastic bag for TP - It took me a long time to get used to this, but on a trip to Yosemite with Wandering_Daisy (again Thank you for the great trip!) the ranger station had some suggestions that really helped:
1. use a freezer bag (kinda obvious, but...)
2. Use duct tape on the outside of the bag so you cannot see the contents.

Option #2 really helped me - sounds silly, but we all have some sort of hang-up... right?! (well I hope so anyways)

Additionally, I kept all of my... bodily function equipment in a small nylon bag - had my handiwipes, my digger, etc. Was non-obvious when I grabbed it and set out to find a private spot.

I'd not be hung up on seeing it, as much as worried I'd make a mistake and open it up as my "garbage ziploc" to be jamming my food wrappers into.. yuk.. don't wanna open that up in the eating area and stick my fingers in it

Please heed this advice

I very seldom use any soap on the trail. I do take a little bit of campsuds. I pretty much never wash dishes with soap, If I need to I scrub out with sand/gravel away from water, then rinse out after. I may use a little bit of soap on me, sponge bath style, using my pot to wipe myself with, if I am very nasty and can't go for a swim.. most of the time I just to the latter, or even a wipe down. and that only every few days.

I do *religiously* keep my hands clean after doing my buisness. either a small bottle of purell, or baby wipes (that I pack out) or extra stove alcohol on my hands when I am carrying my alcohol stove.

You can be quite clean with just water, no need for soaps and chemicals for the most part.

WE use an opaque plastic bag for the used TP...and it always goes in the same outside pocket of the pack with the trowel and the unused TP.

You don't want to get confused about what's in that bag.

With the dog, I now have all sorts of "storage bags" to carry out the used TP. It basically comes out with the trash.

SK

Like the others here, I only use soap when I have too. And then away from the water source...and dumped away from camp as well.

I tried carrying out my TP for a quite a while on one long trip. My hiking partner at the time sort of challenged me on it, asking why I was doing it. I scratched my head and mumbled something about it being part of LNT ethics and so on, but in fact couldn't defend what I was doing really. On reflection, we started to think that maybe it's for people who don't dig their cathole deep enough so that the TP ends up surfacing somehow, and/or for women who use TP in situations where a hole isn't dug.

I've seen people burn theirs (literally seen the glow in the distance before they came back to camp), but I think this isn't a safe long term practice in many situations. My process these days is to just make sure that I take the time and pick a location where I can dig my cathole plenty deep.

In terms of problems with the plastic sack in carrying used TP, my own experience was that just a couple of layers of plastic didn't seem enough to keep the smell completely contained. Particularly in hot weather (?). I'm not sure how many (yes, freezer bag type) ziplocks would be enough to be really odor free when carrying around multiple days worth. Mind you, the average hiker can smell pretty strongly anyway, but there are smells and then there are smells. If you catch my 'drift'.

Might be enough to get a person using smooth rocks and pine cones and snow and so forth on a regular basis. But I have yet to hear a really compelling argument against just burying it deep enough.

We don't ever see how deep other people dig when they feel the urge, but somewhat unscientifically, judging by how well the average bear bag seems to be hung relative to the "4' out, 10' up" rule of thumb, I'm not optimistic about how deep the typical cathole is dug.

Using a bag for TP and carrying it out is appropriate for trips of a week or so. On longer trips I usually have a campfire at least once, then I burn the accumulated TP. It takes a regular hot fire to burn TP - the "light the match to the paper" on site method seldom works and is a fire hazard.

The problem with burrying it in the cathole, is that if an animal can smell it, it will dig it up. I just have seen too many dug up catholes to use this method myself. Last year I watched a marmot dig a hole a foot deep next to my tent where I had peed at night! IF you burry the TP in a cathole, if you douse the TP with water, it will degrade faster. I would never burry TP in an area where there are marmots.

I have carried out TP for years and NEVER had smell problems. Yes, we women use more TP for #1, but that seldom smells like #2. The Forest Service has "wag bags" that they give out in places that require you not only to carry out TP, but the actual #2 contents! If you can get wag bags, they really are great at keeping smells down. There are also OP (oder proof) bags that are sold for fishermen to put fish guts in. You can find them on the internet. I think REI sells them too.

Well, WD beat me to this. And guess this is appropriate in that her arguments a while back convinced me to carry out the TP whenever reasonable. In the case of lesser traveled areas, burying everything is not really a problem. However, along the JMT for instance, I find that people think alike in terms of potty spots. I can't count the number of times where I started excavating only to fine someone else's deposits along with TP. Sometimes they look like they have been there for a while. I consider it just all part of my obligation as a steward of these areas ( since I use them). Much of the time I try to minimize my TP use anyway, so I am not usually carrying out much anyway.

Carrying it out is the one thing that works *everywhere*. some places it's the only good option.

Other places, where it's wet enough, and isolated, it's no biggie to bury it and let nature take it's course. but this really depends.. if you have a good layer of duff and it's in there and moist, all of it will decompose quickly. it's good.

if you bury it a food deep in clay soil, forget it, archaolgists
will find it.

My usual haunts end up with either

1) facilities (backcountry outhouse ok, use 'em)

2) the option above, of a nice active soil layer to get it into
and I know I've done the right thing... or..

In the high alpine I don't do this, option 1 is to carry it out, however in my usual places, this gets beyond toilet paper... my vastly above treeline means I'm probably picking up rocks and putting them in my tent to hold them down. it's frozen most of the year. if you take a number 2, and hide it under a rock - heck, I'm sure David Thompson could have and I could still find his turds 300 years later... there I leave number 2 on a rock for the sun, critters, and water and snow to take care of (I have *never* found them in two months, never mind a year) and a burn the paper.. I've never had a problem getting that stuff to go.. no fire hazard because there's nothing up there to burn, really.

this really goes for places I know I'm probably the only person around. if it's real busy, I carry the whole thing out.

Were I in California - I'd probably be doing that.. more people in california than in all of Canada

I can guarantee, from personal experience, that they will. Deposits in a nice dry rock shelter will preserve the best. Rest assured that you will provide valuable data for future archaeologists. I often said that if fire consumed our building, which housed the results of four seasons of digging in a large southwestern prehistoric pueblo, that if I could save just one kind of artifact, I would grab the ten or so boxes of exquisitely preserved prehistoric poo ( several hundred samples roughly 800 years old) that we had retrieved. All kinds of good information on diet, disease, DNA, blood types - don't get me started......

And then we could talk about historic outhouses. All kinds of things occur there aside from the usual material. Just don't excavate them before their time.

In a book on backpacking I read not long ago, one of the methods suggested for alpine #2 was called "icing." Which is pretty much what it sounds like - spreading it thin over a surface to let the stuff dry up, flake away and disappear.

Yeah, I've heard of that too.. Sounds gross and silly to me. Personally, I've never seen the grizzlies do that, A natural pile is well, natural

(piles from dozens of people in one place are not.. and toilet paper blowing all over creation isn't either, of course.. understand I am talking about particular situations where this is appropriate)

Some responses seemed to migrate to the more general topic of "how to poop in the woods", and I expect most of us are familiar with the various approaches in differing conditions.

In the context of burying tp or not, the only reply on this topic seems to be "if marmots are about they will dig it up". Interesting; I wonder what's in it for the marmot?

While of course I've seen marmots on trail, they're actually pretty rare overall, mostly in pretty rocky areas. Barring unexpected need, I don't "go" (#2) in such places.

I'm really not meaning to be argumentative here, I just have found too many other cases where received wisdom is just --- wrong, or at least simplistic. It might indeed be best in beginning backpacking classes to suggest to folks that they should carry out their TP; that's a different discussion. In terms of what's ethical/reasonable for me to do on a case-by-case basis, however --- in marmot-free backcountry, I still don't see a reason not to just bury it deep.

I've changed my process before, and am certainly open to doing so again, but not just because there's a general and perhaps vague consensus that "it's the right thing to do". FWIW, I don't recall ever seeing a dug-up cathole. I've certainly seen toilet paper strewn along the trail, but my sense in those cases was not that it had been dug up, but rather just left out by thoughtless hairless apes (species homo sapiens but not demonstrably human). It's possible that I misinterpreted what I was seeing. But my own used TP wouldn't look like that, the same sort of "strewn about" look if dug up; I'm sure of that.

I imagine that places where goats abound could be another special case. Certainly they go nuts trying to get the salt out of urine, and they definitely can dig, so they might be an issue with catholes. Interestingly enough, I don't recall any special warnings from rangers when going into one area (The Enchantments in WA state) where goat encounters are guaranteed. They warned us about the urine thing, but said nothing about #2, so in fact, maybe that's not a problem with goats after all.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around marmots digging up catholes. They're not particularly stupid animals; I really don't see the point from the marmots perspective! :-)

I've never come across a dug-up cathole either. I believe in LNT. I pack out every scrap of trash (mine and any others I find), but I'm not packing out my tp or scat. I dig down 8 - 10 inches well clear of water sources, and cover with a rock or branch after I fill it in.

As mentioned, it does help if you take some water with you and soak the TP. Probably helps the #2 to disintegrate faster, too.

I pack my TP out, and am teaching my grandkids to do so, unless we're where we can have a fire.

There is, after all, food material in the #2, which makes it attractive to at least some animals. It isn't the TP they're after, but it comes up when the dig up the #2. The TP takes a lot longer to disintegrate.

We sure hike in different places.. where I come from they are freaking *everywhere*. And lots of their warrens (when I can see them in the rocks) are chock full of turds.



I almost suspect it's an evolution to collect the nitrogen around their lair so they get better greenery in the very limited and very nitrogen constrained growing season in the alpine. however....



I've never seen 'em dig up a cathole.. I've seen 'em go crazy for salt and chew up packs, boots, paddles, and cars. I've seen them drag stuff out of a tent left open...

but never seen 'em dig up poop. I poop on exposed rocks in that country because digging a cathole is nigh impossible, and I *have* turned over rocks to find someone else's old business (yuck!)

Seriously folks though, that's the exception. normally, keep it in the active soil layer, and it's just fine.. When in doubt and if you are at all unsure - pack it out. Wanna know more, then just go buy a copy of "how to sh*t in the woods" (that *is* the title of the book.. seriously... http://www.amazon.ca/How-Shit-Woods-Second-Environmentally/dp/0898156270 )

Not sure you can get away with that. Doesn't that depend upon what the meaning of "is" is?

IS

I never knew the English language was so complicated. Anyway, to exercise your guilt ridden demons I suggest watching Spamalot all the way through.


Seriously though, isn't that the book that advocates smearing your #2 on rocks so that "disappears" faster?

Phat- your marmots look different than ours. We have the brownish red ones. The one you show is gray. Cute little rodent in photographs.

Marmots are after the salt. We females often do #1 and #2 in same cathole.

OM is correct- we humans may view our droppings as disgusiting, but there still are lots of nutrients in it that other animals can utilize. If you have ever owned a dog you know that they can and do eat feces.

There are also some climates (lower elevation US southeast, for example) where the degrading process of soils happens a lot faster. If you burry TP at 11,000 feet in the mountains it WILL be there 10 years later.

Most of the world population does not depend on TP. We can use a lot less too. Get the major stuff off with sticks, leaves, etc. Or take a little squirt bottle and wash off and then just use the TP for a final drying. This way, the TP is not loaded with offensive smells and packing it out in a plastic bag is really no big deal. Regardless of your view on carrying out TP or burring it, less is better.

Well, some of us have conditions where TP and moist towelettes are a must for cleanup after #2, and some of us females have to use TP after #1 to avoid infections, too. I'm fortunately not one of the latter group, but my just-turned-10 granddaughter gets horrible irritation of the nether regions if she doesn't use TP each time after #1. I spent our last two trips showing her how to bag it and pack it out with our other garbage.

I've tried the squirt bottle method. It works fine on a toilet, and was very successful when I visited Turkey. It does not work for me in the out-of-doors--I just end up with not-very-clean water running down my legs and into my pants!

Phat, I believe your marmot is a pika! It sure looks like our pikas!

I respectfully differ with OM on the pika vs. marmot question. Pikas do have similar rounded ears, but the body congiguration and coloration are wrong. I have seen pikas in Banff and they look just exactly like those in Oregon. However, I regularly (and mistakenly) call a bunch of different ground squirrels "marmots", though, so I can't claim much superirority in the mammal-ID department.

A pika is in the HARE family. IT ISN'T A RODENT. phat's photo shows an animal with large serious digging feet and claws that are marmot like. A Pika has dainty feet and a flatter face. At least thats how it looks to me googling photos. We have Pikas here in the lava behind my house at 4,000 feet in the Cascades. They are brown. One day I asked my wife why she had cut all of the "pinks" flowers and laid them neatly in a row to dry in the garden. Thats when we discovered that we had Pikas - its typical behavior for them.

Unfortunately human excrement may be richer in proteins than other available foods. Like a dog smelling house cat doodoo (yummy fishy smell and far more protein than dog kibble), animals don't care what they eat, only its nutrition value.

The only solution is for us to clean out our systems before going camping and then only eat food that you can forage locally so it won't be worthwhile for animals to dig up what you leave behind.
Jim
REASON FOR EDIT - ZOOLOGICAL CORRECTIONS

I thought bunnies (Hares) were rodents? but I just looked it up on wikipedia (and the internet _can't_ be wrong ;)) and they aren't.

"Members of non-rodent orders such as Chiroptera (bats), Scandentia (treeshrews), Soricomorpha (shrews and moles), Lagomorpha (hares, rabbits and pikas) and mustelid carnivores such as weasels and mink are sometimes confused with rodents.[citation needed]"

"Rabbits have two sets of incisor teeth, one behind the other. This way they can be distinguished from rodents, with which they are often confused.[4] Carl Linnaeus originally grouped rabbits and rodents under the class Glires; later, they were separated as the predominant opinion was that many of their similarities were a result of convergent evolution. However, recent DNA analysis and the discovery of a common ancestor has supported the view that they share a common lineage, and thus rabbits and rodents are now often referred to together as members of the superclass Glires.[5]"

Huh, learn something new every day.

So much for my attempt to kill the thread drift

i'll add a bit to the drift and then attempt to take it back to the main trail:

raccoon tastes a lot like beef. texture is similar as well. never had bear but i'm told that is "beef like" as well. nutria tasted somewhat like squirrel. i've only had either of those in a stew like dish so your mileage may vary.
never had pika nor marmot but if you'll send one, i'll give you an opinion as to edibility.

as to the poopie in the woods, i compost kitchen scraps including paper towels, food grade paper bags (sugar bags, flour bags, corn meal bags, etc) therefore i have a lot of experience with those substances in a decompositional sort of way. i find it difficult to believe that it would be necessary to pack out toilet paper. even afer only a few days, the heavy paper sugar bags are long gone. the nitrogen content of the fecal matter and what little carbon matter is contained in the paper should quickly become one and disappear. i'd suspect that adding a handful of leaves to the hole prior to the deposit would help decomposition by adding more carbon to the nitrogen load. of course, that may not be the case in a very dry environment but any place that gets moisture should not have any problems digesting a bit of paper.
i suspect those moist toilettes thingees are a different story as when burned they seem to "melt" first so the biodegradable factor may not exist. we either burn them or pack them out.

i'm not wild about the "fling it in the ocean" and if there are any rocks here, someone brought them. although the "smear it and leave it" approach does have a certain appeal.
as always, ymmv.