Can't get my pack weight down

I find I need about 4,000 calories of food a day to prevent fatigue later in the day. If I eat less than this, by the third day, I'm ready to leave the trail and win a food challenge. (I'm 6'0", 194 pounds, and a healthy 58 year old male.)

The problem is, it's hard to get too many things that have more than 125 calories per ounce and most things are 100 calories. At 125 calories, that's 32 ounces a day of food a day or two pounds. To go out for 5 days, I'd need 10 pounds of food. Just eating 4,000 calories a day of camp food can be a challenge. Space for it is also a challenge.

This is becoming an annoying issue as the more I hike, the more food I need even on the first day. I tend to lose 2 pounds a day on the trail now, no matter how much I eat. I can stand to lose some weight, but this rate of loss isn't good for endurance. None of this is water weight as I stay well hydrated.

Maybe I'm not balancing the nutrients properly, but I eat the usual assortment of what everyone else eats. I'm a vegetarian, so that makes things more difficult.

It also creates a pack weight problem. I generally carry a gallon of water with me which is more than most, but I wouldn't want to have to dry camp with less should I need to do that. I do carry less where I KNOW there is water, but that's worst case.

(all weights are estimates.)

5 day pack:

Pack: 3 pounds
Sleeping bag: 2 1/2 pounds
Tent (for 2): 6 pounds
Water: 8 pounds
Food and bags: 11 pounds
Stove and pot: 1 Pound
White gas: 1.5 pounds (including bottle)
Fleece: 1 pound .
Rain jacket/outer layer 1.5 pound
Extra shirt, pants
and socks: 1 pound
Toilet paper (1 roll for
2 people.) 1 pound
2 6 inch squares .1 pounds
of camp towels
Parachute cord .2 pounds
SPOT transmitter .5 pounds
Water filter .5 pounds
Tiny flashlight negligable

This isn't so bad at 37.3 pounds, but my hiking partner only weighs 97 pounds, so I have to take on some extra to balance the effort. I generally end up around 43 pounds. He ends up at about 30 pounds. Yet I can't see how I can cut down. I use everything in my pack everyday.

As you can see, I'm an ultralight failure.

First suggestion: Don't estimate. Get a cheap postal scale and weigh everything. I use a tenth of an ounce precision.

Since you have a hiking partner, a lot of that gear seems shared (filter, stove, tent...) so you really need to figure out exactly what is in each pack with the exact weights.

I am not sure about the climate of where/when you will be hiking. This is important when looking at shelter, sleeping gear, and extra clothing. It may be possible to shed some significant weight here.

A gallon of water does seem quite excessive, but just like my previous comment, the geography might require it.

6 pounds for a two person tent seems heavy. Maybe you have a 3-person tent for the two of you, but this certainly seems like one place you could cut some weight. A pound of toilet paper seems a bit excessive, but maybe that is just an estimate. Do you usually bring back a half roll or more? 2.5 lbs for stove, pot, and gas seems a little high. There are lighter options than white gas.

Those are just my thoughts... but in full disclosure, I am a failure at ultralight too

I do not see a sleeping pad on your list.

Water management: I have carried up to 9 quarts of water into the Grand Canyon along with 6 days of food. Yes, the pack was 45 pounds at the trailhead. With the water you are carrying you will continue to need the "beast hauler" pack. I have a "beast hauler", but most of the time my pack is less than 2 pounds.

For dry camps I will stop for an early diner, then carry about a quart and a half of water to the dry camp. A pint of water to hike to camp, a pint to drink over night and a pint to drink with Tang in the morning. A pint of Tang and a bar is more than enough to get you to a water source for breakfast. It makes it easier to keep a clean camp when you sleep at a different place than where you eat. Dry camps have less bugs.

A six pound tent is heavy, but for two is three pounds per person. An REI half dome might save some weight.

Consider converting to compressed gas canister stove.

The water on the Colorado Trail is mostly clear. Consider converting to AquaMira treatment.

Actually you are light weight. Take the 37 pound pack ans subtract your water and food and you have a base weight of 18 pounds.

Water management is your biggest barrier. For the most part there is much more water on the Colorado Trail than what is listed in the Databook. It is rare when the Databook lists a water source that is not there. Maybe mile 26.1 of Segment 6 is one of the exceptions.

Thanks for the input. It's probably simplest to agree I carry too much water. I'll probably continue to do that for awhile until I learn what we actually use. Generally we arrive at a water source with about pint and a half apiece. We don't always start with a full gallon. That's just the max.

The tent is 3 person. 2 person is just too cozy for relatives. It's a T-3 REI quarter dome.

I made a spreadsheet of food and calories,etc. It's much more than what I'm eating. Sure enough, I looked in my son's pack and there is a bunch left over. Next time, I pack my own munchies so I'm sure to eat it all.

I don't carry a sleeping pad. I sleep real warm and comfortable. Once I spent a summer sleeping outside on the ground cowboy style with just a bag and I got used to it.

My current bag is way to warm for my needs. I'm going to try just an army blanket sewn halfway up the side and the bottom open so my feet stick out. Usually, I unzip and sleep mostly outside anyway. (I'll try this one car camping.) If it works, there is probably a lighter alternative.

Ringtail, I live in Pueblo. Do you live anyplace close? It would be a lot more effective for me to just see an experienced hiker's pack and to have one look at mine. I think I may be stuck in a mindset of doing what I've always done while making small changes instead of some big ones.

First, take it all to the post office and weigh everything more precisely. Understand what you have to lose.

Second, I refer you to a nutritionist: http://thru-hiker.com/articles/pack_light_eat_right.php

Note that things like olive oil, butter, and those full fat items are probably going to need to go into the food bag. Fat makes you feel fuller, burns well to provide the warmth that needs to come from you at night, and goes to repair the wear and tear on your body while hiking.

Third, I see a lot of places you can cut. Get rid of white gas stove and get a 3 oz canister stove, or go even lighter with an alcohol stove. Get a better sleeping bag - a high quality down bag rated to 15-20F or a quilt rated to same. My 20F down quilt weighs 20 oz. I won't go without it. Get a lighter tent - the MSR Carbon Reflex 3 (yes, 3 person tent, very roomy) weighs half what yours does. A Six Moon Designs, Tarptent, Zpack, or other cottage gear industry shelter can cut it even a few more ounces beyond that. Exchange the fleece jacket for a down sweater, cut a few more ounces. Take a wad of toilet paper per person instead of a whole roll. Get a set of Driducks for rain gear if you are not walking through brush. Don't take the extra shirt and pants - get a layering system going that does the job, without redundancy. Dump the parachute cord and get Zing It - no stretch, good strong and very light cord that makes for much better bear bagging - doesn't damage trees as much as nylon cord. Take a bandanna and leave the camp towels at home.

Of course, you'll probably have some sticker shock on some of the items I suggest. If lighter is the issue and budget is a bigger issue, you'll be going toward tarps instead, or shopping used gear posts in forums like Backpacking Light or this one.

Those are my suggestions... I've implemented most myself. I do cook on alcohol stoves, they do work at low temps, and I do not suffer for the choice - quite the opposite. I always know how much fuel I have left and always get the hot food and beverages I like to have. And frequently I get it faster than the white gas stove users I've hiked with... it seems to be a habit for some folks to consistently overprime those things. I've met very few people who really get their stove to work well for them - they're all fiddly, and they're all dangerous to some degree.

You are getting great advice here. I am sure that a roll of toilet paper doesn't weight a full poind anyway---so the rest of your weights are also probably a bit off. And yes, cut down and cut back. We take a small remainder of a toilet paper roll, not the whole thing. We carry a total of 8 pounds of water between the two of us, and that's if we plan on hiking 4-5 miles without a re-supply point. just those two things alone have cut 5 pounds off your pack weight.

Yes, your tent is heavy. And yes, your stove is heavy and more complicated than it needs to be. But fixing those will cost money.

Cut the first five pounds, and take a trip. Learn from that trip what you need, and what you don't need.

There's whole discussion of this topic on our website as well, under the equipment page...

I'll add to the suggestion to eat more fat. Your a vegetarian, so that would be olive oil and nuts. You will get more calories with less weight that way.

Everyone else had great suggestions, so I won't repeat.

Lori,

Thanks for the specific recomendations. That website is just what I was looking for. The nutrition site is great. I did a spreadsheet of my menu today. I found carbs are 69%, protein 15% and fat 9%. Once I get a lot of data in, I'll be able to improve those a bit. Sounds like olive oil and more peanuts are the big winners here.
.
What alcohol stove would you recommend?

There is probably a new sleeping bag in my future, but not today.

Ouch on the price of a down sweater.

One a side note, I've found if I put dehydrated stuff in the water and let it soak for 5 minutes or so, it heats quicker and tastes better. Especially for thick things like oatmeal or potato soup.

WARNING: Graphic discussion of body functions. All of us are different but I keep my water consumption between 3 and 6 quarts per day. I get constipated if I drink less than 3 quarts per day - a moist colon is a happy colon. If I drink more than 6 quarts per day the result is that I flush out nutrients and minerals and risk osmotic diarrhea. My colon just does not have the capacity to absorb more than 6 quarts per day and that is hiking in triple digit weather. If I am drinking more than 5 quarts per day I need extra potassium so that my body can absorb the water.

Sun protection is important. Not sunscreen, but long sleeve shirts and full brim hats or even an umbrella.

If I allow my heart rate to go too high for very long then I "burn out", and can only hike a few hours per day. If I hike slow and steady then I can hike a lot of hours a day. Interval training is very good training, but is not a good hiking pace.

It is a good idea to push your aerobic capacity when you train, but not on a multi-day hike.

What sort of cooking do you do?

I have a pretty broad variety of stoves - I have a remote canister, a Snowpeak Giga, and probably ten different alcohol stoves, several of which simmer, two of which will boil and simmer with minor adjustments. There are reasons and seasons for different kinds of stoves. I'm afraid stoves are one of my geek toys... I can't seem to resist trying out the next one. Why so many? I dunno, cause I can? Alcohol stoves are cheap.

You could very cheaply get started with two Fancy Feast cans - make a Supercat and a Simmercat. Carrying both is still far lighter than any manufactured stove. There are plans for do it yourself stoves at zenstoves.net, which also does a comparison of all fuels, all stoves and why you would or would not want to use them.

Pre-made alcohol stoves can be had from Mini Bull Designs, Zelph, Past Primitive and a few other vendors - I have three Mini Bull stoves, a White Box stove, a Featherfire and a Past Primitive. Tinny at Mini Bull has gone geeky making more complicated, strange contraptions, but he still sells his Atomic and Mini Atomic stoves - those are bombproof and work great. The Mini Atomic is one of my most used stoves. I also have one of his Blackfly stoves, which was discontinued a long time ago but a very neat concept - it will simmer or boil based on how you set the wick and has a water bath to keep the fuel from boiling, so it's a fuel conserver. I'm currently reviewing the Past Primitive Deluxe Cook set at Backpackgeartest.org (which is a great resource for reviews on all manner of gear).

If I want to steam bake, I'll pack the Featherfire - it has a knob to adjust from a boil to a low simmer. It needs more care with packing due to the legs. I usually wrap my bandanna around it before nesting it in the pot. I managed almost 45 minutes of burn with less than 2 oz of fuel with that one, boiled water then baked some biscuits with it, and had fuel left over.

The remote canister is a Primus - I'll carry that for group cooking, or when I'm doing a lot of actual cooking, ala car camping.

The Snowpeak Giga is often my loaner stove, and sometimes I forget to pick up another bottle of HEET or denatured alcohol - so some overnights, as I pick up the pack at 4 am and head out the door, I grab the Giga and one of the partial canisters and go.

Peanut butter 160 callories per ounce. Also gives you some protein that can be tricky with out meat. I've done some reading on people heating it, then pouring it into a platypus bottle for storage/dispensing to deal with the weight of the container and the potential mess.

Lori,

I've only had one stove for backpacking for the last 34 years. The Svea 123R. It's super easy to use and doesn't break. Mostly, I just use gasoline in it that is too old for the lawnmower.

I'd make a Pepsi can stove, but I just know I'd step on it at the wrong time.

Still, it would be wrong to ask for advice and then not take good advice. So I'll at least try one of the homemade versions of an alcohol stove.

I found this good video on making the Atomizer.

http://www.freewebs.com/atomicstoves/theatomizer10.htm

Oh, on the sort of cooking. Anything from a quick boil to a low simmer. The total cooking time is usually very short. Less than 5 minutes or so.

Here is a video I made which dispels the idea they are hard to light. Usually I carry a smaller bottle of lighter fluid or some fire paste for priming. I prefer the lighter fluid, but fire paste can't spill. It took 4 1/2 minutes to boil 2 cups of water including priming time.

In my experience (and opinion) alcohol stoves do not need to be over-engineered to be efficient and/or work in sub zero temps. I also have found the pressurized stoves like the pepsi-can stove design to be quite inefficient,a PITA to make, and don't work well in cold. The two DIY designs I would recommend are:

Supercat Stove (jim woods design) It is simple, strong, semi-pressurized but very efficient. For warmer temps this stove can hardly be beat.

For colder temps, the Fancee Feest stove (zelph design). Also simple and strong. Uses fiberglass wick so that it will light easily in sub-zero temps. Very efficient as well. This is my goto stove.

While these stoves do not simmer all by themselves, it is easy to get them too. A small strip of beer can aluminum slid up to cover the holes (of the supercat) or wick (of the fanceefeest) will allow them both to simmer.

You cannot go wrong with either of these.

If you are afraid of damaging a stove, the White Box is the one - I can stand on mine.

That said, I'm a total clutz and have yet to damage any stove. Kick one over, yes - but I haven't lost or smashed any of them. And if you smash a Fancy Feast the replacement is easy to come by.

Another one I have and didn't mention - the Caldera Cone 12-10. Awesome burner, boils nearly a liter of water efficiently and the cone doubles as a pot stand, the case doubles as cup and bowl. A bit on the pricey side but you get them to match your pot.

I found a good website for planning food other than the commercial dehydrated meals.

http://caloriecount.about.com

If you create an account, it will analyze the nutrients. I found my backpacking diet was completely lacking in potassium and low in calcium. A cup of dehydrated fruit will fix that.

I also found I could increase the calorie count and nutrient by at least 10% for the same weights just by picking a different brand of food.

All this is probably overkill for an overnight hike. But if the calorie count can be increased by 10%, it means about a 10% reduction in food weight or maybe an increase in energy for the same weight. For a longer hike, this can make a difference.

“…pepsi-can stove design to be quite inefficient,a PITA to make, and don't work well in cold.”

Something doesn’t sound right.
I don’t even use a stove that can’t easily be lit and and stays lit at 0F; and I stay away from stoves that require priming; that’s a signal it will have a hard time at cold temps.

They are hard to make but I have found a well-built pepsi stove is very efficient and easily works at 0F. It helps efficiency to keep the alcy in the pocket before use but I’ve tried it with super cold 0F alcy and it still lights; and it melts snow.

This guy gives good directions: http://www.thesodacanstove.com/stove/
The best pepsi dimension for quick boil is an 1” tall stove with the pot stand 1” above that.
Or you can buy one from Mike the Mechanic on eBay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-3oz-Camping-Su...=item5644356518

Careful, alcy is addictive

-Barry

The mountains were made for Teva’s

To clarify, I define efficiency with stoves based on the amount to fuel to achieve the "boil", not time. Both of the stoves I identified use half an ounce of alcohol to boil 2 cups of water (starting temp 70*).

At 18 pounds estimated base weight, this is light weight. You do need actual weights of the actual things you take, not just the things on the list. Where you camp a bivy should do and I'd use a cannister stove. Your outer layer is too heavy - get el cheapo nonbreathable rain pants and jacket, they are warmer worn over insulation than expensive breathable shells. But you need to put this together and weigh it and read the suggested gear lists. You do not need to be fancy nor expensive to be light, just leave out the heavy stuff.
Jim

I believe we've already referred you to the gear lists on the home page of this site. The articles there have lots of suggestions for saving a half-ounce here and a half-ounce there, which can add up to several pounds. Getting your base weight (18 lbs. isn't bad, though!) down another couple of pounds will give you more leeway on the food and water.

You've gotten a lot of great advice on nutrition, so I won't add much. I've found that nuts are an excellent source of nutrition, containing healthy fats. If you can find a source of soynuts (soybeans cooked and then roasted), those are great, too, as both a protein and fat source.

I've found that, for me, I stay better hydrated on slightly less water (i.e. the water I drink stays inside instead of going in one end and out the other ) by adding a little electrolyte mix to my drinking water. I use the mix at half the recommended strength. Individuals do differ, but it might be worth a try. In alpine areas of the west, there are very few places where you don't run across a water source every couple of hours or sooner. Lower elevations and desert, of course, are a different story. Drought conditions also make a difference. "Tanking up" (drinking your fill) at water sources may (again, individuals differ) let you carry less water between sources. I generally carry only a quart at a time, two quarts at the most, but I don't hike in the desert. Nor (for the sake of my dog) do I hike when it's really hot.

I don't see where anyone said anything about needing to be over-engineered... just providing a description of the many types available.

The 12-10 is a pretty darn efficient stove, no moving parts.

No one did. I did not mean to imply that at all. Just adding to the comments about alcohol stoves. Often when people begin the journey,or as Barry aptly put it, the addicition, it is common to try to over think a design.

“Both of the stoves I identified use half an ounce of alcohol to boil 2 cups of water (starting temp 70*)”

That’s a good definition. Likewise a pepsi stove meets that definition with flying colors.
And it has an added bonus of no priming needed at 0F and works great above 11K feet.
Just an fyi
-Barry

I made a simple diet coke can alcohol stove just to play with. I'll have to buy some alcohol and wait until it gets dark.

Without the holes, it would make a great little container to carry a small amount of peanut butter.

A bigger version could hold my Rich Crackers so they don't get broken. (An organic version of Ritz Crackers.)

I'm a Svea fanatic. I own both the old Svea, the 123R, and the R8 Hunter. Nothing beats 'em for day packing or car camping. Finest stoves ever made, hands down.
That said, lose those for backpacking. Try Esbit instead, or learn to make "cook fires". I used alcohol for a while but Esbit/cook fires won out.

Lose the tent. My poncho/shelter weighs 7 ounces and my heaviest hammock weighs 2.5 lbs. My tent was also 6 lbs....15 years ago.

Lose the toilet paper. Learn to use what nature provides and a drop of soap, a splash of water. You'll be both cleaner and lighter.

barry, that is awesome you have been able to get the pepsi stove to work with such little fuel and also in those temps. I tried and could only get a boil with just under a full ounce in optimal conditions. That was the best I could do. Because it was such a pain to make the stove compared to others I didn't play around much with jet hole sizes etc... Friends have purchased pepsi style stoves with similar results. As I said, awesome you figured it out!

Same with sub-zero temps, do you use HEET (methanol) by chance? I ask because it has a lower vaporization point than ethanol (which I use) and is difficult to light at 0*F without using a wick. The only way I could get it to work is to drop a match into the fuel cup and let the match itself act as a wick. Prewarming the alcohol (body heat) was the only other solution I could find.

One of the cool things about alcy stoves is the playing with them to optimize their performance. Canisters are cool but not as much fun for me.

Barry

Would you care to be a bit more precise in your data presentation, since others seem to have difficulty in matching your results? What weather conditions, altitude, wind, temp, size of pan, type, covered? with what? And at 0 degrees -sitting on what kind of insulation, windscreen? etc.

I don't doubt that you get the results that you think you do, but you either take data differently than many, or you have a "flair" for these stoves that you need to share if you wish to make any universal claims about the general performance of the stove.

ALL: This isn't an alky thread nor a hammock thread. We can and have argued about alky stoves (and hammocks) many times elsewhere. Try to come up some other on topic suggestions.
Jim

I did buy a postal scale today as people suggested.

I've been working on food the past 2 or 3 days trying to condense calories. Here is one day's menu. The weight is just for the food and no packaging. Each meal will be packed in a snack size baggie. The snacks will be in one bigger daily grazing bag. I'll probably get rid of the granola bars and just mix my own things. I expect packaging to be another 3/4 to 1 ounce a day.

I found organic brands often have a better nutrient mix. Old style things like Graham crackers and Ritz crackers have more calories and nutrients/ounce. They are cheaper, too. Stay away from anything with a fancy picture on the box or that hints it is lite food.

Calories: 3,063, 59% carb, 19% fat, 16% protein.

Weight 24.3 Oz
Calories/Oz 127

B=Breakfast
M=cooked meal
S=Snack

Serving sizes are in grams

B Bob's Red Mill 8 grain hot cereal 40
B Unswtnd Carob Chips 15
B Biq Health Food Brownie Mix 50
M Bob's Red Mill finely ground potato flour 34
M Dr. McDougal's Black Bean and Lime 47
M Nile Spice Couscous Lentil Curry 56
M Nile spice Couscous Minestrone 52
M olive oil 14
S Natural Grocers Unsweetened Banana chips 120
S Extreme Trail Mix Granola bar 30
S Nature's plus: Exotic Strawberry Plus Ultra Energy bar 60
S Extreme Trail Mix Granola bar 30
S Peanut butter 30
S Classic Rich Crackers 15
S Peanut butter 30
S Classic Rich Crackers 15
S Peanuts 35
S Potato chips 14

Everything can be cooked in the 2 cup pot with my Svea 123 stove, so I'm getting rid of the big pot and the coffee cup. The stove stays. I just like it too much. But I will get a smaller bottle to carry gas for shorter trips.

Instead of coffee, I make a thick hot chocolate with the brownie mix which I eat with a spoon. In the evening, I'll make potato soup from the potato flour instead of coffee. I found a company that dehydrates beans. They look pretty good.

http://readybeans.com

They are in Ft. Collins for anyone who lives around there.

Added: The refried beans are fully cooked. Just add water ans use as a dip, or heat. The pinto beans take 20 to 25 minutes to cook.

Unless I can come up with some new and wonderful ideas (keeping in mind I'm vegetarian) it's going to take about 2 lb to get to my goal of 4,000 calories a day. But for 3 nights/4 days, I think 3,000 calories will work.

The next step is to figure out the cost for each serving and see how much this all is.

I think the best suggestion of all was to get a postage scale.

Here is what I found I could reduce easily at zero cost. The numbers don't show up well here, so here are the items I reduced. The total savings is 3,178 grams or 7.14 pounds.

This alone will get my pack weight from 43 to 36 pounds. For solo, I can reduce it another 4 pounds with a different tent and probably another pound with a new sleeping bag. Other odds and ends will probably save another pound, so it puts me at 30 pounds for a 4 day trip. As I'm real comfortable with 35 pounds, it puts a 7 day trip easily in reach.

Added: I just realized I'm the water mule, so I can reduce by another 4 bottles of water which is another 7 pounds. That would put me at 23 pounds for a 4 day trip. Now to actually pack a pack and see if it works out. (Is that ultralight yet?)

Full fuel bottle
Half fuel

underwear 2 pr
Commando

Fleece
Long johns

Lots of extra food
Exact food for 4 days

Pots
Not used

Parachute cord
Reduce parachute cord by half

5 pens I found in my pack
1 pencil

Small tube toothpaste
1/2 small tube

4 spare lighters
2 spare lighters

Backup flashlight
Smaller backup

Squirt tops for bottles x 5 bottles
Non Squirt top

Plastic coffee cup
No coffeecup

Toothbrush
smaller toothbrush

2 small camp towels
2 half small camp towels

Full roll Toilet paper
Half roll Toilet paper

Pillow case to hang food
Plastic bag to hang food

I have to second the Supercat. It's incredibly inexpensive, couldn't be much easier to make, and it works great.

I made a pepsi can stove first, actually made several, and I also found them all hard to light. They are really cool looking when they're going, and prettier than a homemade cat stove, but those are the only real advantages I can think of.

As far as smashing it by accident, I thought about that too, and concluded that I could do that pretty good, but not really any better than any other stove I could think of.

I checked into the zelph design. Thanks for the pointer to that. It's very nice. It's not as easy to build, cost more, but for the price he's asking for one he's made, it's a pretty sweet deal.

Now I'm going to go look at his wood stove

I lost the toilet paper.Even at home. I can get leaves from the garden.

I lost the pack,too. I can make one from a couple straps, parachute cord and the fly for the hammock. The straps and parachute cord will also serve as the hammock hanger and the lines for the fly.

I've been thinking of a hammock anyway as there are more places to camp. At least below the treeline.

Now I'm down to 22.45 pounds for a 4 day trip.

Just one question. Is it reasonable to say a person in the hammock in this video would stay dry?

Google up the Moonbow Gearskin. You're almost there.

I think the guy in the hammock would stay dry. If it got more windy he'd have to pitch the tarp closer to the hammock and make it more A frame rather than leave it open that way. Easier to do with a cat cut tarp with four tie outs than a diamond tarp, if it's real windy.

On a group trip, a sales person from the local outfitter took one of the store's hammocks for a trial run (I think it was an ENO); we got a light rain for a couple of hours during the night, and he got soaked - ended up crashing with another guy in his two-person tent. He never figured out whether it was wind blowing rain in under the fly, or water running along the hanging cord; he said it ran down his neck, so I'm thinking it's wicking in along the cord. Same problem on the second trip with it - no wind this time.

Since I don't use a hammock myself, I can only identify what seems to be a problem with hammocks - I assume there's probably an easy solution to divert rain off the cord before it gets to the hammock?

From what I've read you just tie a piece of parachute cord onto the line and it runs down outside the hammock.

If he was using an ENO tarp, that was probably the problem.

But seriously, either using rings or a drip line keeps that from happening. Doesn't take much, you can use a shoelace. Or if you're intending to go out in a total deluge, take a larger tarp with doors on the ends.

The idea of a drip line makes perfect sense - I know for a fact that he wasn't using one.

I saw a Youtube video which described spot selection and orientation. Like a tent, it takes some forethought to keep from getting too wet.

Around here the storms mostly come from the west, so you would want something to shield the wind from the west.

Then you point your feet 45 degrees off from into the wind.

If I get hammock, I'll probably car camp with it when I'm expecting rain and have a tent set up just in case. But I can guarantee it won't ever rain until I go away from the car.

When I first started using my hammock I didn't have a tarp so I just took a plastic tablecloth and set it up more to keep dew off me than rain. I depended heavily on the weather forecast, but I knew the odds were against me and I would get rained on. Here in the Ozarks that often means a fast moving front with strong winds and hard driving rains. The storm might only last 10-30 minutes, and most often the sun or stars will be shining bright a few minutes after it passes over.

So, before buying a tarp I looked into several designs, knew that some of them, despite the claims of keeping you dry, simple would not, here, in the conditions we face. This 12'x12' design did though. I tested it in two, back to back, pretty vicious storms. Even the leaf mulch under it was dry. It stayed pinned down, nothing came loose, and there's room for a pack under it. I really don't see how anything much less than this can be expected to keep you dry.

Wow Bill, that's exactly what I'm looking for. I'll probably start with something that looks like this. Thanks.

Gram Cracker

Finally, I have a trail name. My son gave it to me this morning and it fits what I'm learning to do.

I was weighing my REI pants. 353 grams. Then I took the belt off. 328 grams. A savings of 25 grams. There is elastic in the waistband, so there is no need for a belt. Now I can cut off the belt loops, and I noticed there is a label in it I can cut out.

Kind of a waist (sic) because I realize I can save even more by buying a smaller size. Plus I'll cut the leg off near the tops of my socks and hem them. That part just gets wet anyway.

Pretty much what I meant when I said tarp with doors - a large tarp with four tie outs per side. Several of the cottage gear places have those. OES will put panel pullouts on as well.

“Would you care to be a bit more precise in your data presentation, since others seem to have difficulty in matching your results? What weather conditions, altitude, wind, temp, size of pan, type, covered? with what? And at 0 degrees -sitting on what kind of insulation, windscreen? etc.”

Sorry about thread drift, but back to alcy:

Good question. I’ll explain 2 stoves. Both stoves are sitting on a ~ 2.5”x2.5” aluminum gutter foil (to reflect heat back up). In the cold this foil also sits on a little ¼” thick CCF. That way the heat won’t be drained out the bottom of the stove. I’ve rested the stove on rock or hard packed snow.
Temperature: 0F
Altitude: Sea level and 12,000 ft (easier at high level for alcy stoves)
Wind: Behind wind blocks like pine trees or boulders so wind could probably be <5mph.
Lighting the stove: At 0F the flame must touch the alcy. At warmer temps only the vapors need to be lit.
Fuel: HEET yellow bottle. I like HEET because it gives constant results no matter where I buy it. Denatured alcohol gives different results every time I use it like burn time and yellow flame instead of blue. With Denatured I have a hard time gauging how much to bring.

Stove 1:
White Box stove, Aluminum wind guard, 1.2L Titanium pot (~6” diameter).
Flare/blossom time: 90seconds in the cold.
Notes: Some people prime this stove by putting a little alcy on the base pad to speed up blossom time. I do not.

Stove2:
Pepsi Stove, Aluminum wind guard, hardware cloth pot stand. 3C Anodized Aluminum Pot from Anti Gravity Gear.
Flare/blossom time: 60 seconds in the cold.

The open jet pepsi stoves work nice at 0F. If they don’t work, I could offer some help on why they’re not working if you can give me pictures and dimensions.
Some tips:
1. Make sure pepsi stove is 1” tall.
2. Make sure pot is 1” above stove
3. Make sure pot is >4.75” dia
4. Try 12 1/8” holes on top instead of 32 pin holes. I have 4 stoves like this that I use all the time with my family in the cold.
5. Make sure inside wall (these stoves are double-walled remember) is tight.

Other fun tidbits: I melt snow with the white box stove since it can hold more alcy and so I can do a continuous stream/supply of melting snow in one sitting; usually about 15 minutes worth. I like cooking with the pepsi stove because of its faster blossoming time. I have several hiking buddies, scouts, and cousins that use this stove in the cold so I am always surprised when someone claims they can’t get it to work. Stay away from titanium stoves in the cold. They are a heat sink in and of themselves and thus kill boil times in the cold.

Hopefully I remembered all the critical details.
Happy cooking,
-Barry

Bill,

If found an old piece of fly I had around the house. I can see it's going to work beautifully. For some reason my ends are slanted in which I like. I'm not done setting it up as I need a better spot. But I can see being inside it, I'd feel a lot like a cozy hot dog.

I can see some other possibilities, too. If it's not raining too hard, I can run the line out to a couple trees and make a lean to with a seat in it for cooking. I'll have to get a 400 pound hammock so 2 can sit there.

This is going to be fun to play with. I'll get pictures when I get something nice.

I got a cheap fishnet hammock at the Army Surplus store to play with. for $8.00, it's worth experimenting with until I find what I like.

We had some really strong wind and the tarp held up great. However, I did find if I put less of a slope, it handled the wind better and gave more room underneath.

I think the design I'm going to go with for now is a pup tent in the air but with much less slope to the roof so it covers more ground. I'll have to sew in the ends and put fasteners in them for the door. Me being the way I am, I"ll probably just attach the ends with duct tape for now until I find a design I like.

I've found most anything can be used for a stake. A clump of tall grass, a small tree, a stalk of corn. I didn't have any stakes so I improvised.

Getting into a sleeping bag might be a real adventure. I may go with a quilt anyway. For weather above 50, I'll be fine with long underwear, a fleece and my rain pants and no sleeping bag. If it gets chilly, I'll put on a hat.

If I wanted to make it more airtight I could hang it close to the ground and put a tarp skirting on it.

It just FELT comfortable lying under the tarp. I laid there for an hour and read my Kindle.

I think I'll sleep in it tonight without a bag and see what happens.

Gram Cracker

I can see where, like stoves, designing tarp shelters can be addictive.

After using that one a few times I could see where panel pullouts and more grommets, like Lori mentioned, would be a good thing to have, especially if you have lots of trees to tie off to. You can reconfigure them into a lean-two in no time.

Since I do most my camping in the cooler months, and don't need shade, I really liked the clear plastic. Since I made that one I've thought of a few mods and been looking for some new materials to use. I used 3.5 mil sheet on that one. I think I could get by with something lighter, maybe 2.5 - 3 mil, but I haven't found it yet. And I think could use narrower tape on the edges, smaller grommets, and lighter cord.

One thing I didn't really get a chance to test last year was if the clear plastic shelter gives you any solar heat gain. I was always out hiking during daylight, but I'll make a point to observe it this season. It seems like it should, at least a little.

I also want to do some experimenting on trapping radiant heat from a campfire inside the shelter. I saw a video where I guy used one of those shiney foil-like "Emergency Blankets" inside a plastic shelter to reflect heat back inside. He said it worked pretty good, but there was no real data presented on the video to give an idea of how much warmer it was inside. I didn't try it with that tarp, but I did get a chance to play with that concept this past winter and it showed a lot of promise with the simple experiments I did.

The big drawback most folks will mention about the clear plastic sheet is that it gets really stiff in the cold temps. That can make it harder to work with when you're setting or packing it up. I think, however, that it might also offer a sort of advantage once it is set up. I'll test it in some snow storms this winter to see how it does, but I'd expect that design and material would do very good.

If not, once I get the design nailed down to work with what I have and need I can still spring for some silnylon and make a proper tarp, but those tape and plastic sheet tarps are pretty cheap, fun and easy to make, and they work a lot better than one might expect.

Definitely post some pics of what you come up with, that size and design worked pretty good, but there is lots of room for improvements on what I rigged up and some really great stuff out there to get ideas from.

Bill,

Your system for attaching to a tree seems a little heavy. May I suggest an improvement I made up this morning.

Get 4 feet of 5/8 in nylon web belt. Fold one end back on itself and sew it leaving a loop about 3/4 of an inch big. Wrap the belt around the tree and put the free end through from the top down. Slide the loop against the tree.

This will work for a tree up to a foot around.

Adjusting the height is easy. Just loosen and slide.

You could use the same system for the ridge line, but put a loop in both ends of the web belt. Then tie your ridge line to that.

Since I didn't have a sewing kit handy, I made a test model with staples and it works just fine.

Weight per hanger 28 grams/1.0 oz

PS: Spent my first night in a hammock last night and slept great.

Added: Here is a good video on knot to use to attach the hammock to the hanging strap.


Gram Cracker

Nylon just stretches and stretches and stretches. Try Poly or polypro straps.

Thanks. The piece I have might be poly pro. I just wouldn't know the difference.

Now I'm reading up on structural ridegelines. They seem almost a necessity, especially for short people. Without them, there is a very small tolerance to how far the trees can be apart and still have the same sag and height above the ground.

http://www.tothewoods.net/HomemadeHammock4.html

No, I went with the 5/16" steel chain instead of the 3/8"

Those pics were taken in the forest below my house. I hang a big hammock from those trees and those chains are for that.

I did make some tree huggers for the little hammock though, but I'm not sure if mine are nylon or poly either. Since I don't weigh much, they don't stretch much, but I'll probably find out for sure that they're nylon when my butt's dragging on the ground one cold, wet, morning

One thing nobody had to teach me is never set up a hammock higher than you want to fall.

Probably depends on the hammock. I am 5'7" and have never used a structural ridgeline. Then again I never have difficulty finding two trees set apart within the tolerance. I don't even know what the tolerance would be since I never had a problem. Some hammocks are more forgiving than others.

Deleted. Oops

Here is my latest iteration on reducing pack weight for a 4 day trip. I'm down from 43 pounds to 22.6. Looking at it now, I don't know what the other 20 pounds was.

I was going to list names of people thanking each one individually, but so much was suggested by so many, I'm afraid I'd miss some.

When I came to the forum, I thought I had some experience. I did, but not on going light.

I will get a sleeping pad soon. I just have to find one.

Here it is for critique. For cooler weather, I'll add a fleece and a different bag which will add a couple pounds or so.

This weekend, I'll be taking a test run with the gear. It will be car camping as we are taking someone who has never camped before.

All weights were measured on a postal scale.



Gram Cracker