Summit packs = killers

Hi All,
This a response to a guy on another group who mentioned being caught on the peak of Mt Washington with a group with almost no gear at all because they were "traveling light" to summit. They spent hours finding their camp and their gear. They were lucky, after all he wrote about it.
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I want to make a point here and no offense. Why was "your gear in the other direction'? and why did it take hours without the right gear to get to your gear?

Don't you think the moral of this story is about summiting with inadequate gear for what could happen? Somehow there is this idea that we should leave our real gear that we carried on the less dangerous part of the trip behind while we go on the more dangerous part. The "summit" day pack concept is in my opinion one of the extremely stupid light weight concepts that has "gotten" more people is serious trouble than most light weight ideas.

A day pack capable of holding anything even remotely reasonable for one of the worst peaks in the US is gonna weigh a pound and a half. These days people have backpacks that weigh 2-3 pounds and then they add another pound and a half for the purpose of leaving their gear behind. Does this make sense? I have a large 3 pound spectra backpack. If I want to summit a dangerous peak a long way off, I would dump the pack out in my tent and put in my survival gear - which is mostly warm weather tight clothing, some food and water and then carry it up with me. In the worst case the pack acts as a short bivy sack, or a pad to sit on, and its large enough for my coat, warm pants, gloves, balaclava and yes even my sleeping bag if I want it and also a foam pad to sit on. So what does this weigh you ask?

pack 3 lb

coat and pants, balaclava and foam pad 3 pounds

food and water 3 pounds

other stuff, flashlight, lighter, gps, map, err maybe a compass - 1 pound

So I'm talking about a 10 pound summit pack that can save your butt and even help you be comfortable and find your way back to your tent. I am a Traditional rock climber and I climb vertical stuff with 25 pounds. ;)I say if you can't carry ten pounds to the summit, stay in camp and leave the summit for the big dogs, maybe get into better shape before returning to become a problem for SAR...
Jim Shaw

Jim, for those of us non-climbers, what is an approximation of the climbing gear that needs to be carried also?

I know it depends based on the mountain being climbed, but what is an average of what you carry/carried.

Tango
Specifically I said traditional rock climbing, I was not referring to peak bagging nor alpine mountaineering, which I do sometimes so there would be three lists and others with far more alpine experience than I will chip in here.

Trad climbing:
nylon rope 9 to 12 pounds - dragged not carried which makes if far worse from friction.
A climbing rack of "pro" (bits of aluminum and cam devices designed to lock into the rock for protection) weighing maybe 15 pounds and a bunch of spectra slings and spare biners - 2-3 pounds,
climbing shoes and clothes (climbing is one case where "skin out" matters.) this is where we came in - the Mt Wash
and the second climber has to carry food, water, a couple jackets, a device to remove reluctant stuck pro and maybe a guide book and descending gear and a spare rope often a smaller lighter rope 7-9 pounds, and all of the pro that is removed coming up, but at least has a rope above for protection while using both hands to remove "pro"

Alpine climbing requires real boots and rugged rain proof clothes, an ice axe, crampons, maybe ropes ice screws and some bits of aluminum to handle ropes using friction, a guide book, often helmets and heavy ice climbing gauntlets designed so water running over you and down them doesn't get into your inner layers.

Serious peak bagging may require real boots, gaiters, ropes, a harness, pitons and piton hammers, friction devices, spare ropes, a stove and pan , food, water and a first aid kit and some times crampons.

Ok not so serious peak bagging say in the sierras or worse ( bad weather, altitude, and potential cold and rain)this is where we came in - the Mt Washington scenario, I would have a down jacket with a hood and not an 11 ounce model either, 300 weight fleece pants, rain shells, gloves and over gloves, a balaclava, gaiters, blue foam sit pad, flashlight, GPS with spare batteries, compass - and map, guide book, maybe a stove and a pan, a lighter and some first aid to help someone with a sprained ankle.

My own methodology is to carry the clothes that I might need to hike out no matter how bad the weather and the means to find my way out and a method of getting water into me - my first aid kit includes coffee and creamer BTW he he.
Jim

Your first aid kit sounds great except you would be a lot safer with tea instead of coffee, never mind the crampons.

I'd add one more item to those packs, Jim: common sense. I've turned back 200 feet from the summit because I didn't like the way things were looking. And I've decided to take a different route or change my plans because the weather or conditions weren't good.

Without that, the rest of your equipment won't help much!

Jim, you are 100% correct but did not venture into the lightweight area. Most of my peak bagging is class 3 walkups. I think the 3 pounds of water and food is a little light. To spend the night, I would take two and a half quarts and a pound and a half of food. That equals 6.5 pounds. Combine that with the following gear list that is very stormworthy and is comfortable down to at least 15 then you still have a pack of less than 15 pounds. Instead of bagging the peak maybe watch sunset and sunrise from the summit.

OUNCES

TENT GATEWOOD CAPE COMPLETE WITH STAKES 14.6
BAG NUNATAK ARC ALPINIST WITH 4 OZ OVERSTUFF 26.8
PAD NEOAIR SMALL 8.7
THINLIGHT INSULATION PAD 3/8" 5.6
PACK ZI PACK WITH SHOULDER POUCH AND CORDLOCK WATER
HOLDER 6.0
BIG 4 SUBTOTAL 61.7

WATER 20 OZ. GATORADE BOTTLE AND 2 QUART PLATYS 3.1
STOVE 600 ML POT WITH: 7 ESBITS, FOLDING SPOON,
8 CHLORINE DIOXIDE TABLETS, WINDSCREEN
AND BIC LIGHTER. 9.3
BATHROO0M TP, HAND SANITIZER, 1 OZ. DR. BRONNER,
WETWIPES 3.6
HEADLAMP PETZL E+LITE LED WITH EXTRA BATTERIES 1.4
HYGIENE FOOT POWDER, TOOTHBRUSH, TOOTHPASTE,
VITAMIN I, FLOSS, BREATHSTRIPS 2.5
MAPS 1 QUAD , PEN, NOTEBOOK,
COMPASS IN SILNYLON BAG 3.4
SOCKS SPARE PAIR 2.9
SOCKS VAPOR BARRIER KIT OF FLEECE SOCKS,
PRODUCE BAGS AND LINER SOCKS 3.6
RAIN SUIT SILNYLON TOP & BOTTOM 8.0
COAT BACKPACKING LIGHT COCOON PARKA WITH
POSSUM DOWN GLOVES AND BEANIE 15.7

TOTAL 115.2

food, thanks for the great list. I can't afford that stuff, so I carry fewer and heavier though bombproof gear.

SO let me ask for the sake of others... you do carry all of it when you summit right? As in you don't have a base camp somewhere, but rather carry all of your gear when you go up?

I noticed that you carry esbits and this may not be the place to ask but could you maybe post a photo of your stove/pot setup?
Thanks Jim

Jim,

My gear list changes based on the trip.

The trip in my mind for this list was three nights in Horn Fork Basin. Summit Harvard on the second Day and Columbia on the third day. But if the weather is stable from the Harvard summit then I might want to take the traverse and spend the night on Columbia. In base camp would be my Starlight pack, hammock, tarp, Caldera Cone stove, bear bag with the food for the last night.

I have two dedicated ESBIT pots. One is the Ultralight Outfitters stove that is 4.1 oz. complete with widnscreen and the other is a Vargo Ti pot. If I were hiking the CDT from Berthoud Pass to Herman Gulch I would be carring a complete kit, and likely the beer can stove.

The point is that a 7 pound kit can provide safety and comfort above timberline. You know that most of the time my base weight is in the 12 to 15 pound range because I like to have separate sleeping clothes and sleep in a hammock and use an alcohol stove with a more complete kitchen. The 7 pound base weight did not include a first aid kit, my repair kit or a camera.

I rarely carry a separate, dedicated summit pack because my regular pack is already small and light enough to suffice. I just leave whatever I don't need for the summit in camp.

There are circumstances where separate summit packs are entirely safe and appropriate. Every situation is different. Besides, no exact definition of a "summit pack" was offered. IMO the title of this thread as it stands is a sweeping generalization.

Yes Trailrunner it is a sweeping generalization. There is only so much room in the title block, which is why I did the explaining in the body of the thread.

The gist of the idea is that going with very little to the summit is often a bad idea, although not always a bad idea, but if it is bad weather or a known potentially bad spot, then the "concept" of summiting with mostly no gear is one that CAN kill you. It gets more readers ya know, more people to chip in their two cents worth, more oportunity for someone to say "but aren't you always safer with less gear because you will be less likely to injure yourself?" (or is it "?)?
Jim