Getting too old for this c__p

I was invited for a New Year's Eve snowshoe bp trip in the Lake Tahoe area by a 25 year younger guy who I have done a few trips with. His two roommates could not make it Friday, but made it today. Anyway, I have only been into Echo Lakes once before from Echo Pass area, over Memorial Day weekend, 5 years ago, so could not remember all the roads. Ended up losing the hour that I got when I was asked if I wanted to leave work an hour early. Heck yeah! Finally got started on the right road and trail 5 minutes before 5:00PM. At 6 or so, I took my pack off to change something and checked my thermometer, 7F I think, no more than 9F. No wonder my whiskers were coating up. My hands did good, I had to take my Dachstein gloves off a few times to cool them down. Never found my friend that night. I bped in 3.5 miles looks like at 7500', made camp at 7:30, 15F, eating dinner at 8:30 after melting snow, in bed at 9:40. I was tired, he found me this morning, we had camped a few hundred yards apart he said. Due to the snow overnight when little accumulation was to happen, we hiked out this morning. The Snow Park was not plowed which was my biggest worry. His roommates radioed this morning when we were over half way out. We met them almost at the cars, they asked him if he was going to go back, he may have went part way back to camp with them, but he was tired too. I'll find out later. Must say, it was tough, really tired this AM coming out. I had some tracks going in to follow, but it was still hard. I followed one set of tracks up a hill about 7:00PM, they kept going up, that took it out of me, so I went back down and across Upper Echo lake. I told him next time we go in together. He thought it would be easy for me to follow his tracks, but he went in mid day and other people had made tracks later. Too much worry to know if you are going where someone else went with all the tracks. He said about 5:30PM he shone his light a little for me to see, I told him I was going to start about 5, how far would I have been? Glad to be back home, by the woodstove. Eating ice cream.:)

I have my own rules about winter backpacking. I would not even consider going out without committment to stick together. It has nothing to do with age - if I asked someone 20 years my senior to go with me, I would do whatever necessary to allow them to keep up; if I were to ask someone 20 years my junior, I would expect them to slow down and go my pace. We would have a meeting spot at the parking lot and stay put until everyonen showed up. I do not think you are too old- I think you went with the wrong people.

He respects the fact that I have a lot of years under my belt, age wise and experience wise, I don't know it all by far, so trips like this are another story to be told later. Forgot to mention, when I took my pack off and checked the temperature, that was when I got my BD Ion headlamp that uses an expensive battery out as I could see the tracks in the snow, but not for good footing. He's very good at finding new trailheads, I told him we need to go in together next time, as he said he was going to camp along the trail this trip. A lot of trail. The tracks across Lower Echo Lake had completely filled in from the new, blowing snow by this morning. He wanted to go out over the trail that we came in on, you could not see it. I persuaded him to cross the lake, close to shore part way, I told him others the day before had crossed it with a canoe they were dragging across the surface, loaded with beer according to some xc skiers who crossed too. I think part of the old bit is doing this so late, at night, in the winter with no one around.

I agree with Daisy. YOu went with the wrong people. Decisions (and the decision making process) should be a mutually acceptable and joint venture...And hiking in the woods in winter should be something you do together, not simultaneously in more or less the same area.

Find soembody who wants to hike with you, instead of just wanting to hike near you.

Amen to that aimless.. you're not to old - you just went with people who are essentialy "doing their own thing" but expecting you to find them. A huge recepie for stress. Something I definately won't do anymore, having been a willing or unwilling participant in such FUMTU's a few times.

Convince them to stay with you next time, or Go solo, where you're not worrying about someone else.

Underline and exclamation point on that amen. There is a certain expectation in being part of a "group" otherwise what's the point. My advice is to get it out in the open before the trip. Otherwise, just make a loose commitment to meet at some spot on the map. Just drive separately. As long as everyone knows what to expect (and is reliable and proficient in the back country) it can work out pretty well. I'm generally pretty mellow; not really into telling people what to do. But make me go looking for you for an hour or two, and then I find you lounging at a creek (and not dying) when you are supposed to be somewhere else; you are going to meet pop-a-vein.

My worst experience was with scuba. We are doing a beach dive in the tropics and Howard comes up to me and asks do I want to partner with him. He is part of the marine group and these guys dive basically alone all the time. I did not really register this and said sure. We hop in the water and in two minutes he is GONE. I didn't see him again till I got out of the water. Lucky this was a shallow dive. Still had a good dive but......never again with Howard as a "partner".

Not that you need this advice...I just been gone for a while and felt like commenting on something!

Amen to that aimless..

I can't take any credit. Wandering daisy made the point, not me.

I knew he was going in ahead of me, after starting, I started thinking it was going to be tough, would he make it as far as he said, otherwise, I may have taken the short way across the lakes. Also thinking, if I went across the lakes, would he be camped along the trail and I would miss him. Some stress at this point. My one disappointment was he only came back on the trail a very short ways before he turned his headlamp on, way before I was to be expected. I think he forgot that part. Conditions sure dictated plans for this trip. Funny, on a trip over the 4th of July weekend, he was the stronger hiker the first day, but not by much. The second day which turned out to be our last day, I'm standing with my pack on still during "breaks", while he has his pack off, laying on the ground saying how tired he was. We had a long lunch, he's laying down yet again, I'm checking out the wet area by our stop, looking at the plants and holes where some little critter that lives in such conditions. He's good to go with, better than solo at times. There is an older guy who goes with us, we all get along pretty good. All three of us have done a couple trips together, this young guy I have done four trips with him now maybe.

Snow can be so tricky. I know you and others who frequent this site have more experience than me in snow, but it can really mess with you. Conditions are highly variable and the terrain can really get messed up visually; you know where you are but can't quite pin down something you are looking for. And when you are 2 separate parties, you can each be second guessing each other. I am not a gps guy in general. However, I can really see the benefit to having a good unit in the snow. You can set up primary meeting coordinates as well as backup spots in advance. I'm thinking at least 3 for unsure weather and 2 for nice weather.

BTW, sounds like you are doing fine to me. It's just that this trip stressed you out a bit. Just means you are a reliable partner.

sk

A GPS? I don't even own a compass. Wasn't stressing as much as how much further was I going to have to go and how close would I be if I only hiked so many hours. I think like you said, second guessing each other was the biggest concern. He thinking I would be able to go as far and me wondering if he made it "X" amount of distance. In Lassen Park, I have had to catch up to folks who went in the day before over the snow, but caught up to them just as they were leaving their camp, that was cut and dried as we were only on the main road thru the Park. Off to work.

I am thinking the answer to this whole thing is getting into dog sledding. If you like dogs, it seems a natural fit. A while back, finallyME's posts got me into looking at dog sledding sites and there are actually teams that include shorter haired dogs in Minnesota. They put jackets on them. And the benifits: no more carrying stuff in winter; and with 3 to 7 dogs you will never be alone. Of course there is a very pesky learning curve. And for me, San Diego is not much of a dog sledding center. 2" of snow in the Lagunas yesterday, gone today. Hmmm

sk

Even here in Alaska most sled dogs are short hairs. They are smaller dogs with _long_ legs.

You could instead use a kick-bike - they make a dirt bike type that could take trail pretty well.

Or get a larger dog and have them carry a pack.

Or they could pull a cart.

(Pictures are of course mandatory if you do any of the above ;))

Heather

On our AK trip a year ago, we stopped at some retired teachers house outside Wrangell, they used to teach in Fairbanks, she was deaf and ran sled dogs. They had invited the group to stop in for lunch when we passed thru as they had met the trip organizer thru a forum where he had asked a question about the area. When Pooch was alive, I did some snow camping with him, had to bring some beer flats for his ground insulation, but now I see a short regular pad would be better. We did a few snowmobile camping trips too, that way we could get further in, he would ride in my lap, but when I stopped, get outta his way, he wanted off that thing! When I had my two Dobies, I had considered using them, but the female may not have wanted to do that, her dad would have been gungho.

Serious? Here the use of at least compass is regarded as mandatory for a hike in the mountains. We call it "fjellvettreglene" or the mountain code for safe travelling in the backcountry. http://www.turistforeningen.no/english/article.php?ar_id=7090&fo_id=3622

Otto! Fjellvettreglene? I had trouble with farfigneuton or whatever it was (VW adds). You got to put the phonetic pronunciation after it to at least give us a chance to not butcher it.

sk

No sweat! It's that volcano in Iceland!

I think if you want to have a hike, you must find a good partner, who has rich experiences in hiking. In that way, you won't worry for other things.

I can understand where hikerduane is coming from. In the western US, the terrain is rugged and the visibility if usually good enough that you can orient yourself by terrain features. I rarely use mine, but I carry it out of habit.

An experienced partner helps, but remember that the partner was also inexperienced once. The trick is to figure out whether the partner has twenty years of experience, or one year of experience twenty times.

Experience is just another word for learning. You can shorten the learning time by reading books by experienced persons, and applying that knowledge. You should then modify the knowledge based on your own experience, and you will discover what works best for you.

Most but not all of my travel is over trails. Any issues can be resolved by hiking longer and kicking oneself in the butt. You can also go by the map, checking off features as you come to them. Where we were in AK, just follow the contour and drainages as we went, we had a great view as the bush pilot flew us in one at a time over open country. I can see where compass use would be needed where it is heavily forested, I have had limited training with a compass, in a class at the local community college, on the survival weekend, our instructor gave us a compass and a degree to follow, no problem, aim at a tree in your line, go to it, repeat. Luckily the small team I was on, they had experience, so I gave it a try. Cool.

Otto,

There is a reason why Scandinavians are successful in orienteering competitions.

I guess that less than half of US households even have a compass.

I carry mine all the time. Once we cut cross country to hit another trail in an area that's fairly straightforward - I could just barely see a prominent peak and kept it over my left shoulder as we wandered along through meadows, across bogs, creeks, deadfall, through blueberry thickets... every so often we stopped to check bearings. Unbeknownst to me this was making some of the non-orienteering members of the group nervous. They thought we were lost and trying to find our way.

I've also had occasion to map/compass to determine which trail is which at a junction. Signs vanish sometimes. While one can generally orient by the sun, sometimes it's cloudy....

Precisely. Every time I have used my compass in the mountains in the last twenty years or so, it has been in the clouds or fog.

One weekend trip into the Caribou Wilderness which is next to Lassen Volcanic NP here in N CA. I had hiked up to a small plateau if you will, a prominent feature close to camp. I had not been up there very long before a low cloud or bit of fog rolled in and due to not being up there before, suddenly realized I had to figure out where I had come from and where I was going to go down at. No panic but oh s__t!. Once down, I could orient myself. Yes, a compass would have been handy, but would I have brought it on a local trip?

One reason I habitually carry a compasss comes from an event in my misspent youth. Somehow, we obtained a Forest Service master key, which I kept on the lanyard of my compass. You talk about multipurpose, lightweight outdoor gear! In brass, it weighed about 1.5 oz - should have had it made in titanium.

We did indeed use it several times, but carefully. Open the cabin, use it, and then clean and tidy up, leaving fresh kindling next to the stove when we left - a different world back then (1950s).

Duane,
A question. Lets say in your story that you reached into your pocket and there was a new compass put there by your significant other before you left home. How would you use it to find your way back?
Jim

Jim, first no SO. Assuming I found the compass after I had camped and knew where I was, but snow prevented me from seeing very far to get back and the tracks were covered, I could get my coordinates in relation to where I needed to go using my map, send my partner out ahead of me in the direction of travel on the correct tangent, have him stop in the line of travel, I would then move up to him, repeat. Very little compass use so I'll have to go by feel here. If I was alone and could use or see some trees, I would use the trees or prominent rock features or the like. The one time we did such a thing was in the Survival class and I thought it was too simple. I know there is more to plotting things out, declination and so forth but never have taken a class or been shown.

Duane
OK Fair...
Start by going to REI.com and watch the compass classes, they are really good.

What I was aluding to was, if you were lost before you found the compass in your pocket, then we assume that you also probably did not have a map, or else you would have had a compass.

I don't want to find your quote, but it was to the effect of "gee I wish I had a compass [and presumeably a map]" , and I was just wondering how the compass that simply materialised would have helped you find a heading to your TH, not that you couldn't cleverly follow it, but frankly those are clever ways, and easier than dragging a long pole. I keep trying to get Bigfoot to leave the pole and club at hi cave but when you camp with a guy who catches and eats raw fish, well, as long as you camp up wind from him its cool and entertaining.
Jim

I knew the area a bit, just had only been that way one other time. I've come in by the trail that comes out of Lily Lake by Glen Alpine Springs four times maybe, that passes to the north and above Upper Echo Lake if you take a fork in the trail, but have only come in by Lower Echo Lake one Memorial Day weekend for a three night snowshoe trip about six years ago, so things difinitely look different and trying to remember things. Would be real tough to get lost in there as you can follow the shoreline from close to my camp as a last resort to get back to the lodge then the road to the SnoPark. Thank you, headed to Winterfest sponsored by mtnsteve the end of the month, outside Lassen Park for a change, due to the large crowd I think.

Hi, just a nutty reply!

I'd bet a thousand to one that your friend has Giardia, even if he doesn't know it. Ha ha ha ha!

Altitude