How sharp is that knife?

Hi All,

Many people believe the old addage that a dull knife is dangerous and a real outdoorsman has a bowie knife sharp enough to shave with. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> When we buy a new Gerber its as sharp as they can hone it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> There is never a statement on the package saying "This knife is only 90% sharpened for your safety." <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So put it this way, if you are camping and you are going to cut yourself, would you rather have a run in with a butter knife or a scalpel? I made this rule for myself - If I am carrying an extremely sharp knife [ I no longer hone my knives toextreme edge] I would stop at the first rock at the trailhead and open the blade and draw the edge once over the rock, to dull it. Its hard to cut to the bone with anything but an extremely sharp knife. And why do we need a sharp knife camping - to cut nylon string - use scissors. Scissors are much more useful on most camping trips than a knife - except for a butter knife which can be wooden even.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
YMMV
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jim,

I carry a miniBuck 350 multi-tool and a pair of sewing scissors. I expect to use some part of the miniBuck about once per week of hiking - and that is generally to assist someone else.

I use my scissors a half dozen times a day.

I carry light pruning shears when hiking with a wood burning stove.

I also carry a 1.3 oz. Sierra Saw. I once sprained my ankle while hiking solo and while I was able to hike out I considered making a crutch.

I love a utility knive to clean up edges when wood working in the shop.

I still tend to prefer a sharp knife. When backpacking I carry one of two things

1) a small opinel folding knife - when I carry this, I keep it's carbon steel blade nice and sharp - as since it only has one blade, I use it for everything. It's lighter than option number 2 below. However I have to buy another since I stupidly ended up with it in my carryon
in reno airport last fall and had to huck it out before going through security.

2) A small Swiss Army knife. - and yes it as scissors, and I agree with you on their usefullnes. I use the scissors, tweezers, toothpick and both blades extensively. In this case I tend to keep the larger blade merely decently sharp . I keep the small blade honed very sharp. I use the small blade pretty much only for fine work (ie. swiss army surgery <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and the big blade an scissors a lot more often.

When hunting I tend to take number 1), or a Mora knife, and a wyoming knife, and then
I want them very sharp.

I'm a sticker for a "proper edge" and a sharp one at that. The purpose of a tool determines it's edge. I shave with a 5/8ths inch straight razor I strop a couple times a week and hone every two weeks. It's truly 'razor' sharp, which means it's edge is thinner than foil and as fragile as an edge can be. It's great for hair, and that's about it. My pocket knives have a 'double bevel' working edge which holds up to abuse and is very easy to restore with a couple passes over a crock stick.
They will 'pop' hair after honing, which is really useless in the real world, but gives them a good start. Once I've ground and sharpened an edge, I can usually depend on it to stay in good shape for years, with a touch up on the hone every couple of months. I detest serrated blades. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
The point (pun <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) of a sharp edge is that it requires the least amount of effort to push through work, reducing the likelihood of slipping and doing yourself real harm. I'm also careful about what I cut and how...keeps the blade intact for months. Don't ask to borrow my knife. You'll get my loaner...which will cut butter or saw through string. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

A butter knife is certainly safer, but won't cut anything either.

Yup, scissors are on the little Swiss Army knife. Use 'em all the time. I find the pliers on my Leatherman Squirt just as useful if not more so....that guy is the most useful pocket tool ever.

Jim, Jim, Jim....you're way out there on this one, buddy <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I am a Grocery Manager by profession and let me tell ya'...there's a reason meat cutters keep their knives so sharp and it has nothing to do with cutting rump roasts! A sharp knife makes a much cleaner cut that is easier to stitch. I have taken many apprentice meat cutters to the hospital that learned this lesson the hard way <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

BF

p.s.--butter knife...check, drool guard...check, football helmet...check...ready to camp! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I find the easy way to avoid stitching in my rump roasts is to not cut anything anywhere near my butt - but ymmv <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Phat...wouldn't you use a SWORD to cut that rump roast of yours?

http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/Barbarians/Essays/conan1.jpg

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Really! Spent a decade of my teenage/young adult life at Safeway (slaveway <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) Nothing worse that a dull box cutter blade when working night crew, cutt'n and markn', and yes, as you say, the meat cutters keep crazy sharp knives. That was in the seventies/eighties. Do you know what a 'Garvey' is/was? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Didn't he play professional baseball and have a good looking wife named Cindy?

i would love to be able to keep knives sharp... how do i do it?

robi

Bigfoot,

Guys - I was talking about cmping knifes.

Anyone who needs a speciality knife should have one. I have butcherd meat and I know why you need a sharp knife. Phat needs a wyoming knife to clean game - cool.

BUT THE POINT REMAINS
for camping, a razor sharp knife is a liability.
A sharp knife being safer IS a fallacy unless you are doing something that a duller knife will not do easily. I used to own a leather shop. Everyone got a safety lecture and was shown that tools which can work oak tanned leather will remove your fingers without even slowing down.

And as far as wounds healing - a jagged knife cut will close and self heal a long time before a razor cut will. The smooth cut simply somehow has less surface area to knit. Midnightsun - comment?

So if you're not a butcher, samari, leather cutter, hunter or sushi chef - why take a really sharp knife camping? Answer - its ego - when I was a Boy Scout we all spent hours honing our knifes to see who had the sharpest one. Often it was me, then I cut myself to the bone - I learned, some of you haven't.
Jim

Hmmmm....ego, huh....I respectfully yet humbly disagree. There are lots of different kinds of 'edges' you can put on a blade. For camping, or utilitarian use, a 'working' edge is what's needed. The best honed working edge in the world can not be "razor" sharp. The bevel is to obtuse and metal is simply to thick. If it passes the 'thumbnail' or 'hair popping' test, it's plenty sharp. A working edge will cut whats needed and stay sharp, as well as hold up to abuse, similar to an ax. For camping, I like a sharper knife over a duller knife any day, and if I were to cut myself (as I did last week), I'll take a sharp blade over a dull one, no question. My 'super glued' finger is completely healed after one week, cut to the bone by a razor knife blade, my stupidity. My shin, barked by the corner of my utility trailer 3 weeks ago, is still healing....from a 'sharp' piece of angle iron. Would you allow a surgeon to operate with a dull or sharp scalpel?
I inspect my straight razors and other knife blades under a 100 power microscope (available at Radio Shack for under $20)....sharpening is kind of a hobby to me. A dull blade has nicks, cracks, burrs, and 'coves' where bacteria will hang out and is uncleanable. A well ground/sharpened/honed blade will have tiny, even serrations instead.

A rusty nail or a house key will 'cut' and is better than no tool at all. If I'm going to bother carrying a knife, it might as well be in the best working condition possible, ground to the task.

PM sent.

If you are of the opinion that a sharp knife is a liability and you can get by with scissors, go the scissors route. In that case a dull knife takes up space and weight and is just as much of a liability. Why bring it along at all? A knife is a tool for cutting. A butter knife is a tool for spreading butter and cutting butter at the dinner table. Diminishing the effectiveness of a tool's intended function makes it a less effective tool. You then have to weigh safety (which is debatable) vs. utility. Carrying a butter knife around maybe safe, but it is useless around the camp unless you want to butter something. Having used knives for cooking, butchering, whittling, and other utility chores I still believe a sharp knife gets the job done more easily and safely. I know that more force is needed behind a dull blade to get it to do its job, this means less control through possible slippage and fatigue and there is more likelihood of causing injury to yourself or others (if you are violating one of the Boy Scout rules by using a knife in proximity of other people).

If you are using a knife in a survival situation to make wood shavings for fire, construct shelter, process food (if you are lucky enough to catch something) a sharp knife will also save your energy in that you don't have to work as hard to get the same job done.

My question is, if a jagged wound heals faster, why do surgeons use scalpels?

There is nothing wrong with bringing scissors instead of a knife if that is all you need to get the cutting jobs done, but I wouldn't bring a dull knife along just for the sake of having a knife. Just my opinion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ouch! I still do not agree...but i WILL agree to dissagree <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Geen and tan and Bigfoot.
I expect to agree to disagree with Bigfoot. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Hes my friend... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And I'm playing myth buster so I don't expect any classiscists to agree with me.

B&T
quote"
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If you are of the opinion that a sharp knife is a liability and you can get by with scissors, go the scissors route. <snip> A knife is a tool for cutting. A butter knife is a tool for spreading butter and cutting butter at the dinner table. <snip> Carrying a butter knife around maybe safe, but it is useless around the camp unless you want to butter something. <snip> I know that more force is needed behind a dull blade to get it to do its job, this means less control through possible slippage and fatigue and there is more likelihood of causing injury to yourself or others
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In fact you are agreeing completely with my concept. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> A sharp knife is a tool for cutting or butchering <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> - but in my opinion that "need" is not really a part of modern LNT BPing. I'm saying that the only real repeatable need that you have for that knife is eating and spreading butter/jam. [unless you are hunting, a samari, or otherwise require it as part of your mission gear] Whittling is against the Boy Scout code as an unecessary dangerous way to "play" with knifes. I had a Tote and chip card - I know. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That said - I like chip arrowheads which is even sharper than anybodies knife and very dangerous, but I don't feel its a necessary part of camping. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


<<If you are using a knife in a survival situation to make wood shavings for fire, construct shelter, process food (if you are lucky enough to catch something) a sharp knife will also save your energy in that you don't have to work as hard to get the same job done. >>

I agree with you, only I would want my axe instead of a knife. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And if I am going to be in a survival situation there are other things I'd like to have too. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

<<My question is, if a jagged wound heals faster, why do surgeons use scalpels? >>

A surgeon is not concerned with the cut healing, he can glue it together, cauterise it, and probably injects you with a blood thickener so you don't bleed as much. A surgeon is concerned with precision cutting which a dull blade will not do. I do not require this precision to cut my potato or a piece of rope. And I do not butcher anmals while camping - normally - this year was different.

<<<There is nothing wrong with bringing scissors instead of a knife if that is all you need to get the cutting jobs done, but I wouldn't bring a dull knife along just for the sake of having a knife. Just my opinion. >>>

Again I have to whole heartedly agree. A pair of scissors will cover about all I ever need to do, so I tend to carry a miniature SOG mini tool with gear powered scissors, one inch long knife blade and tweezers I think. I would never carry a dull knife just to have a knife, but I would cary a utility knife that was too dull to cut my hand severly. Just like I don't need a scalpel or even a box cutter to any camping activity. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Ok so the last time we needed a knife was last September when we used a dull swiss army pocket knife to cut the legs off a whole duck my girl friend packed in. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now if your a BPing chef - carry a fine set of knifes.
Bottom line - Big sharp knifes, axes, campfires, and guns for camping are VERY RETRO... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If yer gonna give your kid a knife to play with, er uh I mean learn to be responsible for, are you gonna start with a razor knife cause it'll be easier to sew his fingers back on?
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jim I know you are trying to be the myth buster, but a myth buster must be challenged or it makes for a boring show. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As you pointed out I do not entirely disagree with you about bringing scissors instead of a knife.

I don't agree with your comments in reference to Scouting. You wrote
" Whittling is against the Boy Scout code as an unecessary dangerous way to "play" with knifes. I had a Tote and chip card - I know."

That may have been a rule for your particular unit, however, I am not finding any reference to whittling being forbidden in the most current Boy Scout Handbook. In fact In Chapter 4 in the Second Class Scout section on page 77 the book says.

"Pocket Knife
Ever need to cut a rope? Open a can of food? Whittle a tent stake , slice a biscuit or punch a hole in a belt?"

On page 78 under knife use the book says "Do keep your knife sharp and clean. A sharp blade is easier to control than a dull one.

I am not a medical professional, however, I think surgeons would be concerned with the healing of the incision. On another medical note I have had stitches from broken glass and other non-knife lacerations. The people doing the stitching have commented that clean (not jagged) lacerations were easier to stitch, and less likely to scar. This would translate to better healing I would think.

Grenn and tan
Thanks - a myth buster is useless without disagreement... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

In my scouting unit whittling was a violation. And the scout manual says the same thig it did then. BUT - I have NEVER had to puch a hole in a belt. I do not whittle anymore - not since I was a scout. AND I have never had to whittle a tent stake. These are remnants of the scout manual that also emplored you to keep your axe razor sharp so it wouldn't bounce - maybe if you're a lumberjack, but not for splitting wood. Heck I use a ten pound wood bomb thats as dull as they come - splits wood nicely. Just a sharp axe is all thats required, no need to shave with it - see my avatar <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As far as "slicing a bisquit" what would I need a sharp knife to do that?

ANYWAY all I'm trying to do with this thread is to say - YOU DO NOT NEED A SHARP KNIFE OR EVEN ANY KNIFE TO BP, and perhaps there are safer lighter weight alternatives that provide that same function.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Jim

This in addition to the assertion that you also do not NEED a compass, first aid kit, cell phone, GPS, map, flashlight, or even fire starters. As per John Muir - a warm coat and a loaf of bread is enough. Everything else is just for your comfort level. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Jim
You are absolutely right! There is so little that we really need to walk in the woods. I don't think I would even need a butter knife to half a biscuit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
And by the way, I don't always agree 100 per cent with the BSA Handbook either.
A dull knife would be safer for me because I would leave it at home instead of carry it, so I guess the outcome is "plausible."
Take it easy,
G and T

I went to the internet and read some neat stuff about sharpness and edge durability testing and found a websight where the following quote is from - and this was the general concensus of others on this websight as well.
Quote"
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<snip>"Scalpel blades are not as sharp for a reason [As a microtomb - used for slicing tissue perfectly flat and thin for microscopic viewing]. The razor edge [ of a scalpel] cuts cleanly but not as cleanly as a highly polished blade (sharpened with an extra fine stone). This is a good thing if you want to reclose the cut which in most surgical cases is the goal. The roughness helps blood clotting giving it better binding sites and speeds up healing.
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they said scalpels are no sharper than razor blades. There was also a statement that a new spyderco is sharper than a scalpel. "The knife you cut yourself with is sharper than the scalpel I am using to fix it"
surgeons? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Being a lifelong woodworker, I've worked with many sharp tools. I have no use for dull ones. I'm the same with pocket knives. I have no use for a dull one.

Sharp knives? Interesting... I'm a sometimes-professional wood carver, and my experience is that it's not just a blade's sharpness that makes it safe or unsafe. About 90% of safety comes from blade awareness; use a particular style of knives long enough and you will gain a sense of when body parts are inline with the cutting action, as well as how the material you're cutting will behave with the knife. Sharp knives make for less slippage and need less force. That makes sharp knives safer, but it's not a replacement for good blade handling.

That said, I usually use a tiny swiss army knife when I'm camping, and I agree that a scissors is what gets used the most. I might carry something more substantial if I take up hunting. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jim,
Your new trail name is "Dull Knife" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.indians.org/welker/dullknif.htm

BF

I think Wolfeye hit it. The way you use the knife is way more important than its sharpness. I think this goes with what you have said all along with guns, Jim. Isn't it you who has always been saying that if you don't know how to use a gun, it won't help you to bring it? I think your advice with guns translates to knifes. If you don't know how to use a knife properly, don't even bring it. I agree that 90% or more of your cutting tasks are done BETTER with scissors. That is why I always have a pair (either those paramedic types, or something smaller). But, there are those times when I want a knife, and a sharp one at that. I am not as particular as Dryer when sharpening, but I do keep my blades sharp and can't stand serrated edges (cuz I can't sharpen them). I am also very careful. When I was a new Boy Scout, I saw my friend slice open his finger with my knife. I am as vigilant with a knife as with a firearm. They are just as deadly.

So, my point is, that if you don't know how to handle one, bring scissors. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm not as particular as I made myself sound. I only micro-inspect a blade the first time I grind and sharpen it, so I know what I'm working with, or if trying to work out chips when restoring a use one. This is especially useful with razors. After that, a blade will only see a hone or steel and I don't much care. If good judgement is used as to what is cut, an edge can hold up for years......especially if you don't loan out the tool. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

That is why I like my box-cutter/folding knife. It folds like a knife, but holds a razor blade. I loan it to people when they want to cut something. Normally when someone wants your knife, it is because they don't have one. And this usually means that they don't know how to use one or maintain one, or what not to cut with one. Cardboard is really hard on a blade, for example. So, if someone breaks or dulls my razor blade, I just stick a fresh one in. I also use it to cut cardboard etc. I never let my other knives that I keep sharp cut cardboard. Although I like a really sharp edge, and I know how to keep it that way, or get it that way, I still hate actually sharpening it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> So, I try to keep them as sharp as possible all the time. This also translates into using scissors much more often.

Jim, you need to ditch the knife and just bring scissors. If you worry about cutting yourself, then maybe you have a tendency to it (my mom sure does). You are better off without one. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do those come in pretty colors and say "Husky" tool on the side? Flick open like a lockblade knife? If so, that's exactly what I sliced my finger with a couple weeks ago. Mine's blue. Those things are crazy sharp, especially at the really sharp point. Didn't feel a thing! They are bad, yet evil, devices of satan. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Finally me - Dryer

Those folding box cutters are extremely dangerous. You can cut your thumb off just closing it. Definitely a "professional tool" that would be best not taken camping. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> They do have a place, but unless you're used to that tool... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Dull Knife I guess is my new name as given by Bigfoot. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In fact I can knock two pieces of obsidian together and create and edge you cowboys can only dream of. Obsidian blades are used in microtomes and eye surgery.

I also respectfully disagree. Last summer I used the blade of my knife for the following items: cutting cord, whittling a point on a long stick so I could leave my tarptent pitched yet use both my trekking poles for day hiking, whittling frizz sticks for a fire (trying to show off to my granddaughter...) and cleaning fish. All these are very difficult to do with a dull blade! My years of kitchen experiences (cooking for family of 6) also taught me that I'm far less apt to cut myself with a sharp blade. a clean cut does heal faster than a jagged one and is less apt to get infected (per my physician son-in-law).

Yep, in fact my is a hot pink. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Don't ask. Husky isn't the only brand that makes them. I think they are all made at the same place and stamped with 20+ brand names, then sold at a large range of different prices. Jim might even have one, as they are great for wallboard, roofing shingles etc. They are crazy sharp, and you don't have to sharpen them, which is why I like them. Yes, you have to be VERY careful with them.

I agree, obsidian can form a natural "super" sharp edge. I learned this as a Boy Scout in California. Flint can get darn close. Unfortunately, I do not posses the skills yet. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mouse et all,

Apparently you missed this quote"
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />_______________________________________
<snip>"Scalpel blades are not as sharp for a reason [As a microtomb - used for slicing tissue perfectly flat and thin for microscopic viewing]. The razor edge [ of a scalpel] cuts cleanly but not as cleanly as a highly polished blade (sharpened with an extra fine stone). This is a good thing if you want to reclose the cut which in most surgical cases is the goal. The roughness helps blood clotting giving it better binding sites and speeds up healing.
_____________________________________________

Scalpels ARE NOT SHARP compared to other options available to surgeons. They like the duller blade of scalpels because they heal faster than cuts made with sharper instruments.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

To just create an edge, Jimshaw is exactly right - just bang two rocks together, or rap your obsidian nodule with something heavy (not your head, please). Protect your eyes from flying fragments while you do this. Sort through the fragments until you find something that suits. This is how our ancestors fabricated stone tools for a couple of hundred thousand years or so until more advanced techniques were developed.

How fast a wound may or may not heal is not a consideration for me. I carry a knife for cutting stuff, so I the edge I choose is the one that cuts best.

Nor do I worry about cutting myself. The risk is so low I don't worry about it.

A few generations ago my tribe also used mussel shells for general cutting, and beaver teeth for wood carving. They didn't hold the same edge as stone but they were easier to make & sharpen.

Yes indeed. I hav seen a handy mussel shell did a very nice job on filament tape...

Isn't this a quandary? Sharp or not? I sat down and thought about all the times I've cut myself with a knife (counting the scars). It appears I've done myself with a knife 15 times that I recall. Of those, all were preventable except 3 (major splinter self-removal surgery) which required a very sharp knife. 7 could have been avoided with or were mitigated by a dull knife. Of those 7, 4 were preventable with smarter knife use (all involved holding something in one hand and cutting through with the other - right into the palm or fingers) and two were from testing the edge of an extremely sharp knife with a thumb (surprise! Your buddy actually learned how to put an edge on his blade!). The last was where I sat on an open lock blade that my buddy had stuck in a log. It just barely got me through my jeans and took no stitches. I didn't get cut worse because it was dull (he must be related to you, Jim <grin>). The remaining 5 incidents involve cooking, and I'm happier with the 2 times the knives were sharp because they all healed within a week with very little scarring. I still believe the 3 dull knife incidents would not have happened if the knife were sharp. They all involved trying to force a knife - cutting onions, potatoes and carrots comes to mind for two - and having the blade skitter off into my hand.

All that said, there are probably an equal if not superior number of times that I was NOT cut because the knife was not sharp. I'm not saying the knife was dull, but it just wasn't that hair-splitting sharpness I like on my Leatherman or Buck. When I cut food, sometimes I nick the nails of the hand I hold the food with. Those small nicks might have gone through with a sharper knife. But then I seem to do that much more frequently when I'm using other people's knives. Maybe it's because I concentrate harder on the task when I'm using my knives which I know are not very forgiving.

That reminds me of the hand ax, which has an edge that can easily slice newsprint. My buddy decided to split wood, and almost took off a finger because he's not used to a sharp ax. A really sharp edge will split wood with very little effort, but he took a whack at it and the head ran down the split into his finger. Since then, I don't lend my ax without reading the riot act about how sharp it is.

I use gerber knives and a multitool. and keep them sharp, but not so sharp that you can shave with them. A super sharp knife will dull and it's hard to maintain that edge in the field unless you keep a stone of some kind with you. I wouldn't waste a sharp edge on a rock. It will dull fast enough with normal use. I sharpen my blades with a Smith diamond sharpener on the course side only. To test the edge I drag it across my thumb nail. If I feel a consistant drag I know it's sharp enough. It will cut paper with ease. To get cut with a dull knife is bad and the cut more painfull. The cut of a sharp knife will usually be deeper but will create less scaring. I got a finger cought in a bandsaw mishap and it turned a small area into what looked like hamburger meat and would have been hard to stitch. In closing, use a sharp knife to get the job done easier and be aware of what you are doing with it.
Never stab fruit while holding it the palm of your hand. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It is possible to sharpen serated edges. Use a round diamond file that fits the seration. You can also sharpen the serated edge on the smooth side of the knife. It's the wrong side but it works. Use the knife, sharpen the knife when the blade is spent (worn out) and served it usfull life. Get a new one.

I know you can, but why? Excluding bread, a sharp straight edge is just as effective as a serrated one. Plus a straight edge is easier to sharpen. I don't like actually sharpening. The less time I spend sharpening, the better. I also don't want to buy a new knife every time it goes dull. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But you could.. and we could just drop our Dull knives into an Earthling box destined for Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

Well, if you put if THAT way. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I keep my blades sharp, but it's not about safety, really; it must have been 5+ years since I've cut myself the last time, so that's a non-issue. A knife is simply more useful when it's sharp; sharpness, in fact, is what makes knife a knife in the first place (note that sharpness and sharpening angle are two different things).

Usually I carry my Victorinox with me, it has pretty much everything I (might) need: knife, saw, tweezers, can-opener and a few screwdrivers, toothpick and a spike/drill/nail for general MacGyverisms. It's also a survival tool I keep in my pocket along with a few selected items instead of in my pack with other stuff.

When I know I'll need to work with wood, I usually bring a proper knife like my Roselli Carpenter Knife (the best general-purpose puukko I've ever used) or Sissipuukko (if I really need to cut down some trees <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

By the way, what do people actually use scissors for? The only time I ever miss them is when I need to cut my nails, and that can be done with a sharp knife, too - though it can be a bit difficult with broken nails at times. But things like cutting cord or opening a bag of freeze-dried food is, in my opinion, quicker and easier with a knife. No, I'm not trying to say knifes are better than scissors, I'm just wondering if others are using their scissors for things I haven't thought of.

phat
I already have a large collection of dull knifes <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I have about 6 stones including a nice 3 stone job that was a christmas present years ago. Never use it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm trying to grappel with with the variety of input to this thread. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />There seems to be people who just like really sharp knifes and they get something from carrying them - maybe size does matter. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Scissors will do almost any cutting job that a knife will - only in a much safer manner, which is why I see a distintive male/female line going here - women prefer scissors unless they need a sharp knife - men like sharp knifes. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am a licensed contractor and a locksmith. I use chisels, sawzall, table saw, chain saw, razor knifes, drill bits, drills, etc etc to cut things with - wood and metal. All of these tools are extremely sharp and extremely dangerous unless used with caution and I had to learn to use this stuff and not get cut. I did get once or twice larning <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Oh and Ill bet my blade is bigger than yours. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The point is - I could carry a razor knife camping, or a samari sword and I wold never get cut, or an axe, BUT it took me a while and I shed some blood learning those skills.

I carry dull knifes because they can do the job, and I have a lot sharper tools at home. I NEVER cut myself, and I know that I cant get too badly cut with my 45 year old Boy scout knife cause I haven't sharpened it since I was a boy scout and cut myself badly - which is why I dragged the razor edge over a rock. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

If anyone doesn't like my story, then you can thank trae for bringing it up. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I started using scissors in Iraq. I found a pair of those medical ones in the trash that someone was throwing away. I figured that if they cut pennies, they must be good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> When going out on missions (I was a heavy truck driver, so all I did was drive all over the country in the biggest truck the Army has) I carried three cutting tools; a Victornox multi tool (like Less Shroud <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), a K-bar sized fixed blade, and these scissors. To help you understand my philosophy, let me remind you that I HATE sharpening knifes, but I like a really sharp edge. The blade on the Victornox was always very sharp, and to keep it that way, I only used it if it was the only choice. I wanted my big knife to always be sharp for stabbing (sorry, I was in a war zone), so I tried not to use it either. Remember, anytime you cut paper, plastic, anything, your blade is slightly dulled. It doesn't take long cutting cardboard to dull a knife. I ended up using my scissors almost exclusively. They cut open my MREs (I ate a lot more than I ever wanted <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), they cut boxes, they cut cord, they cut string etc. I still have them, and they still cut all kinds of stuff, and I have never sharpened them. In fact, everything they cut, they cut better, faster, and cleaner than a sharp knife would have. When you are holding a hot MRE and are trying to cut it open, scissors cut it with more control (less chance of spilling it on your lap while you are riding in a bumpy truck), without the danger of cutting your hand open <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> . Oh, and luckily I only used my big knife to chop ice. We would buy a big block from people on the street and break it up in our ice chest with our drinks <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

If you think of all the things you cut while bping, 90% can be done with scissors. In my opinion, scissors are primary and a knife is backup. But that is only me. To go with Jim's last post, I try to carry the biggest scissors so that mine is bigger than everyone else's. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Finallyme

Hey great story. I hope it makes people think about alternatives - of course you alread had a Kabar so... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Anyway I never thought of those medical scissors as camp gear. What do they weigh? I guess you can get em with plastic body and autclavable? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Why? So it's sharp. A dull serated knife will cut through stout rope when a dull strait knife will not.

I have a collection of dull knives that are in my gear archives. A dull knife is about as useless as teets on a boar hog. (a saying I've heard alot living in the south)
I make sure my little Gerber frame knife is sharp after each use. I usually punish a knife by using it for more than it's intended use like cutting metal, prying stuff apart etc. When it breaks, which I've done several times, I'll get another. I was using my Gerber multi tool once to bore a hole in a heavy rubbermaid plastic product and snaped the blade at the thumb hole. I sent it to Gerber and they replaced the blade and put it in a new sheath. No Charge. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To each his own. I'm also a contractor and the sharper tools do make for clean cuts especially trim cuts. Sissors are great for many things.

don't cut yourself...

I guess it's preference, but a dull knife requires a lot more pressure to cut things. Even things like cutting tent string or preparing a fish (etc..) is safer using a sharp knife. the theory is, the sharper the knife, the less pressure you have to exert to cut something, thus, if you miss and end up cutting yourself, the cut won't be that bad because you weren't pressing that hard to begin with. I have only cut myself ONCE using a knife and it was a dull blade filleting a fish. The knife wouldn't easily run through the fish (because it was dull) so I had to use more pressure and move the knife around to get it to cut. Not only did I make a mess of my fish, but I slipped and cut my thumb. Thankfully it wasn't that bad, but if I was using a sharp knife, it wouldn't have happened. That's just my experience, I'm sure everyone has a bit different one.

When you buy a knife, it does not come as sharp as can be. This is due to the fact that knives are mass produced and sharpened on the assembly line. It is near impossible to get a 100% perfectly sharp edge using a machine designed to sharpen hundreds of blades at a time. Even companies like leatherman that sharpen their blades by hand are doing so very quickly to be more efficient. To get the sharpest edge you must sit down and spend a little time sharpening and honing your knife using a nice sharpening kit. You can ALWAYS make a store bought knife sharper.

Hey, Dull Knife! My new knife arrived today !
http://www.knivesplus.com/columbiariverknifem16-cr-m1612zer.html

I immediately put an edge on it that would split hairs! Yes...i will be bringing it on our trip. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

BF

Jim, you better beef up your 1st aid kit to cover bigfoot when he cuts himself. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Or maybe beef up his kit so you don't have to carry it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Maybe let him borrow your scissors. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Matt, if you truly care about Jim's (dullknife's) safety, I recommend you pull your new knife's edge, 90 degs across a bench grinder. That way its edge will match the spine of the knife. Use a vice to break off 1/2" of the point. Bring some rounded, plastic scissors too, in case you run across some construction paper on your hike. Safety first! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't even bother with a knife or sissors. Just chew in in half with your teeth. I'm sure you won't cut yourself that way. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I bought the orange/red handle so the blood would not be as noticeable....leave no trace camping...always! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If we run into any wild animals, Jim can give them a pedicure as a distraction while i run away. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BF

BF
All I have to do is out run you... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

chaz
quote"
Don't even bother with a knife or sissors. Just chew in in half with your teeth. I'm sure you won't cut yourself that way. "

Eaxactly what I've been saying <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> - thats what teeth were made for <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Real men hold their food in their hands and chew off a hunk. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jim, remember we live in Oregon...you'd be hard pressed to find a full set of teeth here, let alone trying to chew with 'em. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

That has always been my moto. Maybe I should change my saying on the bottom. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jim,
Here's a video i took on my last camping trip:
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/without-a-paddle-its-a-bear/3671703722

Still wanna' go this week?

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

tiny
quote
" Even things like cutting tent string or preparing a fish (etc..) is safer using a sharp knife. the theory is, the sharper the knife, the less pressure you have to exert to cut something, thus, if you miss and end up cutting yourself, the cut won't be that bad because you weren't pressing that hard to begin with. I have only cut myself ONCE using a knife and it was a dull blade filleting a fish. The knife wouldn't easily run through the fish (because it was dull) so I had to use more pressure and move the knife around to get it to cut. Not only did I make a mess of my fish, but I slipped and cut my thumb."
____________________________________________

Tiny
What is the first A #1 rule of knifes? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
NEVER POINT IT TOWARDS YOURSELF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Every one who has ever been cut by their knife, has violated this simple rule. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Do not use your hand as a cutting board. Everybody who has ever been cut with their own knife, dull or sharp, pushed the blade into their own body when something unexpected happened.

So maybe people who stab themselves should use extremely sharp knives. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> YMMV <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Jim,
This is my new knife that i will be taking on our trip. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.popular-pics.com/pictures-series.aspx?photoid=982&seriesid=3083

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

When will this famous trip happen? I can't wait to hear about Dull Knife borrowing Bigfoot's knife so he can cut something (hopefully not himself).

Personally, I want a knife that is sharp enough to clean fish without leaving jagged edges. Assuming, of course, that I can catch any fish in the first place. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jim is on his way to my house to start the trip. We'll be gone Thursday, Friday and come home on Saturday. Pictures next week.

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That's why they call it fishing not catching. Good luck

The reason they say is dull knife is more dangerous is that you have to apply more force with a dull knife which can slip and cause injury. With a sharp knife less force and more control are possible. Did you ever see that dude on the ginsu commercial with a cut finger?
Gerber is a sharp knife. I got a Gerber for creek boating - I took a grinder and rounded the point over and dulled the blade a little - I was desperately afraid of that knife - it was the sharpest honed blade I have ever seen. Now in this instance I was willing to have a little dullness. Imagine being trapped upside down in your boat going through some heinous rapid on some little flooded creek with your head bouncing off rocks and you pull out the Gerber (scapel) to cut your knee straps loose.

I don't think I want to imagine that scene. Just hope it never happens.

Just got back from the Dunes hike with Jim Shaw. Good hike, GREAT food and good company! Jim ended up carrying twice as much cutting weight than i did...two pairs of scissors, one small bone handled flint knife and a tiny piece of sharp flint for "cutting and skinning"... probably about 8 ounces total. I had my trusty (razor sharp) CRKT pocket knife (3.4 ounces), not to mention my "rapier whit". I cut my steaks, Jim chewed his. To each his own. Whatever works for each person is the best method. If you feel comfortable, weight be damned, use what works for you!

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The first night of my next outing will be with steak and a sharp knife to cut it with. Oh yeah! add some steak sauce, Potatoes, butter, sour cream, chives, bacon bits, and some burbon. I almost forgot, ice and a chaser. Maybe a pie for desert. I might not go very far to the first camp. But the pack weight will be lighter after that.
Have I left anything out? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I cut the meat and ate my steak with a titanium fork and deer antler handled obsidian ceremonial knife complete with beaded handle and hand sewn leather scabbard. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> so there... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The fork and the obsidian knife were the only tools that I used this weekend besides a finger nail file.

BUT

I could mention bigfoots son sleeping in the hammock laying on the ground, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> or bigfoot sliding down his slippery tent. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> We both forgot creamer but I had a plastic funnel and 2 dozen filter papers and half a pound of fresh ground coffee. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
A good time was had by all. I'll admit I was a bit worried about the 16 year old running around in gym short and a tee shirt bare fotted when I was wearing everything I rought and it was around 43 degrees to 50. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jim,
You forgot to mention that the 16 year old was TESTING the hammock and could've easily bunked with his Dad in an emergency. Also, how the 16 year old (who has been backpacking since he was 3 years old), helped 4 college students get a fire going on a very windy beach...not easy, i know because i taught him how. As i remember, he also put clothes on when he got cold enough. Any parent will tell you that a 16 year old boy can't be told what to do or wear...i'm just glad he wore the gaiters on the hike in. I won't mention the purple womens long underwear you put on when it got chilly <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And as for shoes...it's a beach, dude! His Dad went barefoot half the day, too. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> All in all, i'd say we had a great time and the steak was awesome.

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

After testing several knife/scissor/cutting edges on this trip, I have decided to carry my victorinox swiss army knife again as my standard camping tool. Its a full sized one with 2 blades, a saw, scissors, cork screw, and screw driver bottle opener. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

3.7 oz. The scissors are preciscion enough to cut a hangnail. The two blades are just slightly sharp. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I use a little cheap 3 inch Gerber Shortcut multi tool I got a Wally Mart for 13 bucks. I use the little scissors more than anything. I have a titanium spork I use for eating while backpacking and at work when I pack my lunch.


The knife on the multi tool isn't sharp, but I never really use it.


Tom

but if you never cut yourself than the sharpness of the blade is irrelevant to safety.
on the other hand situations in which you might cut yourself arrive more often with dull knives than sharp ones.

Jim,

I understand where your coming from, but I prefer a sharp knife that will cut what ever I need when I need it to cut. And yes I've shaved with my sharp knife before, need to look good when you leave the bush and are going to a place with girls to meet. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The only dull knives I have are knives that cant keep a edge or are not meant to have edges (such as my bayonet collection). As for using scissors, that means I need to carry more stuff so they get left at home.

By the way I always have in my pocket a Gerber LST II knife, and its as sharp as can be, gets sharpened every couple of days and will cut a thick juicy steak without much force.

Dimitri

That Gerber LST knife is a real backpacking classic; as is Jim's Tinker SAK IMO. Jim that must be one sweet fork, Ti huh <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I would've thought you'd have picked up an errant shell on the beach and made a knife right quick.

Sounds like you all had a good time by the jabs of it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

earthling
quote
That Gerber LST knife is a real backpacking classic; as is Jim's Tinker SAK IMO. Jim that must be one sweet fork, Ti huh I would've thought you'd have picked up an errant shell on the beach and made a knife right quick"
____________________________________
I lost my LST and my first Ti fork and spoon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The ti fork is so light and it won't break or melt in the fire. How can I leave it home at 1/2 oz? The ti spoon also at 1/2 oz is there to measure my coffee. Probably the edge of the spoon will cut most food. I remember my grampa got me a big knife with a whole bunch of blades, a table spoon and a fork. All the other boy scouts were jealous. Then it came to be that you couldn't hold the food with the fork while you used the knife to cut it. I sadly stopped carrying it and lost it.

Actually on the camping trip with bigfoot I used an obsidian ceremonial knife with a stag horn handle for ALL cutting. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I also had a flake with me that would have cut anything. AND I can make an edge 100 times sharper than a scalpel - eye surgeons use obsidian blades.

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
P.S. at home I generally eat dinner with a sharp kitchen paring knife - my wife has become used to it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think I see why you have trouble cutting yourself...

Couldn't agree more Paddy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This agrees with the study I read about in a popular science mag (Discover?) about 5-6 years ago. The study found that sharper scalpels caused wounds to heal more slowly. The study did not cover issues about "easier to sew" or scarring. So the study suggested that scalpels should be slightly less than razor sharp for quicker healing.

Now a microtomb is something else altogether. I believe it is used to shave skin off to replace burned skin, and perhaps other reasons.

My point: cuts from razors heal more slowly than from dull knives IF YOU GET CUT. This has been my personal experience also. When I got cut from a razor it took about twice as long to heal up.

Bulrush
Thanks for the input. I think a lot of the guys here are too young to have been cut shaving, so they don't know about razor cuts. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />