my concerns

I read a lot of ultralighters saying that they do not carry toilet papers and scouring pad, because they can substitute them with moss or leaves or gravels.
Whenver I hear such comments, it gives me chills.
I'm worried that wipe my rear hole with moss might allow some kind of fungus to grow or introduce some kind of worms to grow inside me. Cleaning my pots with gravels might scratch the surface and allow fungus and bacterias to grow which will lead me to food poisoning or something. I only have non-stick aluminum, and wondering if titaniums are not strached by the gravels.
Such worries makes it hard for me to not worry.
I wanna hear about your experiences guys
Thanks in advance guys

toilet paper goes with me every time I go out. And most times come back as well.
Kevin

Depending on how long you are on the trail, toilet paper can run out, then what? I usually don't bring any to begin with and wash with soap and water instead. It's MUCH cleaner than using/hauling around toilet paper. First wipe with local vegetation, 'lambs ear' works well, leaves, soft grass...then wash/dry. The stuff you are wiping with is likely cleaner and more fungus free than you are.
Same goes with cleaning pots. I don't use sand/gravel. I will use bark/leaves/grass, then soap/water. The detergent/soap part will usually be Dawn or Dr. Bronners, along with a chunk of "camp towel" as a utility rag.
Remember, most of the world doesn't use toilet paper. Then ask yourself...are you cleaner coming out of the shower or off the pot after wiping? I'll bet you're rear end is cleaner coming out of the shower.
No fungus's or other problems in over 30 years of hiking/camping.

Well, it sounds like the abundance of life out there makes you worry. You shouldn't. 99.99% of life out there is threatened by your presence, not the other way around. The field of human pathogens is pretty clear, and you don't find them just sitting around outdoors. You find them from other people. Very few organisms have the potential to be pathogenic.

You won't get any kind of worm from moss, dirt, plants, or the air. Only a VERY few people manage to get nasty fungal infections in the wild, and they almost always live in constantly wet, hot tropical regions. Skin is a pretty darn effective barrier against pathogens. Same for bacteria - the only stuff in moss is bacteria that eats other bacteria and similar things. The wild would be the LAST place to find dangerous bacteria, as it would quickly get swarmed and eaten by bacteria more suited to the environment. Now, go digging in poop pits or not washing your hands after using the bathroom, well, you just exposed yourself to your own germs. Oops!

Cleaning pots - I'm a pretty anal guy when it comes to cleaning. I've done a lot of microbiology work and most people's kitchen practices drive me nuts, cross contamination is rampant. When it comes to pots in the field, I just clean mine (with my hands) of all visible (or feelable) debris. Bacteria on the surface of metal usually dies within a few hours, it's VERY inhospitable territory with ions and such causing all kinds of problems. Bacteria can thrive in patches of food, etc, that aren't exposed to metal however. So don't leave debris in the pot.

Scratching pots isn't a problem unless food accumulates in the scrapes - see above. It's much much more a problem with plastic as bacteria take up residence in plastic scratches. Metal will kill bacteria (coins are dirty usually, not with high bacteria counts). Plastic provides a nice, moisture retaining home for bacteria.

Bottom line, you could run around naked and roll in dirt, wipe yourself with leaves, and lick all the moss you wanted. The actual problems you'd have doing that? Mosquitoes, sunburn, getting dirty, getting poison oak, and looking like a darn fool licking a tree. You won't catch any mysterious disease or rash. Go to a city and hang out with people for that!!

Excellent post John. Technical knowledge combined with common sense.

However, I am going to have to report the post to the moderators. When you give a complete and correct answer the thread dies. Just kidding. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

“Cleaning my pots with gravels might…”

‘Freezer bag cooking’ is heaven sent. Since using, I’ve never cleaned a pot on a trip.
There are hundreds of meals to buy or make your own. And most are very good and tasty. Experiment before you hit the trail though.

-Barry

"However, I am going to have to report the post to the moderators. When you give a complete and correct answer the thread dies."

Duly noted. A warning, John, next time please post only 'half truths' and sketchy details, so we have something to talk about. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I go UL, and yes, I take TP. My buddy Rumi we found had TWO rolls with him on a week trip. He was selling it at the end for food. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
I suffer when I am hiking enough, and leaving my pillowy white TP at home isn't worth the suffering. For guys it isn't as big of an issue, for me, drip drying is an invite to a very painful bladder infection (something you don't want mid trip).

I do pack my TP out as well.

as for the fungal/spores...while the chances are VERY low, I had a hiking partner in college who used ferns and got a NASTY infection down there. Who knows what caused it, but the skin around the area got all nasty (male), swelled up and it took a lot of time and medication to get it back to normal. So, while nature's TP can be ok, do know what you are using! Vanilla leaf is great to use, and a secret? Use it layered between a couple sheets of TP. It feels like you have more TP than you do.

As for the pans. I haven't cleaned a pan in 3 1/2 years on the trail <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

While I can (and have) done without TP, I carry it. just because I don't particularly feel like going without. I also carry a few baby wipes and gel for bathroom duty. However, this isn't because
I'm concerned about anything in the outdoor environment infecting me. Generally speaking, I don't
think I'm at all worried about there being random bugs out there waiting to infect me. On the other
hand, I have a healthy respect for a public outhouse in a backcountry campsite and what comes
out of my, and other people's butts. I also tend to get a rampant case of "diaper rash" in the nether regions if I don't have a nice way to wash myself off well. So for me, the most important thing
is to have something to wash up and clean my hands with, to ensure that

1) I don't get all rashy.
2) Stuff that comes out of my butt, and other people's donesn't end up in my mouth.


As for pots, generally I just boil water, so I don't wash pots. my pots aren't nonstick because a) I don't
need nonstick and b) I like to scrub 'em out with sand or gravel if needed. I'm not worried about whatever might be lurking in scratches because I generally don't think anything beyond what's coming out of human butts (see above) is a risk in the bush, and heat would kill it anyway.

This is encouraging, only one person so far can tell us a story about some weird thing happening after using leaves! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The ailment of Sarbar's friend is somewhat alarming, but as she says very unlikely. It could be a bunch of things, too, and none of it really easy to figure out without hundreds of lab tests.

There could have been some wacky bacteria and fungus on the fern like the original poster fears. Again, so far one person can tell us this has happened out of the entire board... It could have been a spider or bee or other small bug that stung or bit when so rudely squished. Maybe, and really unlikely, it could have had poison oak on it or have been poison oak. Or he could have picked up some plant that he was unknowingly allergic to. Possibly wiping with ferns wasn't cleaning well enough and he got a horrible form of diaper rash from his own, uh, waste.

Seriously, though, I carry TP and don't rely on leaves. Maybe in a few years if I got more used to it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I also don't use dirty leaves, moss, lichen, ferns, buggy leaves, or dripping wet leaves (unless it's raining).

It's so hard to be good. I was going to post about mutated bacteria swarming us and turning us into back-country zombies straight from horror movies. "Bob and Jane thought it was just another hike... until he wiped with the WRONG LEAF! Can Bruce Willis save Yosemite from THE ATTACK OF THE FLESH EATING HIKERS OF DOOM?!?"

Then I realized, hey wait, I can't start writing the next blockbuster movie! I need to show solidarity with the striking Hollywood writers!

Last time I checked it was 98.67%

Lol...and so true! This was also the same trip where another guy tripped over a log into a frozen lake and yet another guy had a tree branch go into his eye <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> (Yes, oh YES, alcohol was involved <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> as if that had to be asked)

So yeah, it could have been the fern or it could have been god knows what. But I can say I have never used a fern for TP <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The Vanilla Leaf is nice though!

The brilliant and bawdy 16th century satirist, Rabelais, in his hilarious Adventures of Gargantua and Pantagruel , devoted a whole chapter to this question and concluded that 'a well-downed goose' was the most efficient wiping agent.

Perhaps, in the absence of a goose, a furry bunny? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Will Ferrell used a ferret in "Along Came Polly".
Any ol' port in da storm......... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Iran's late Ayatollah Khomeini recommended a 'stick or bone' and only the left hand in an old article I read. My dad was stuck using the 'monkey ward's catalogue' when he was a kid on the farm. The Romans used community sponges (ick).
TP as we know it, is a western invention of the last 100 years or so.

Some interesting links about TP....
http://komar.cs.stthomas.edu/qm425/01s/Tollefsrud3.htm
http://nobodys-perfect.com/vtpm/ExhibitHall/Informational/tphistory.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper


Appearently, a 'furry bunny' WAS used once in a while. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Nothing beats snowballs. Guaranteed to wake you up.....

I take TP, but not a lot. I use dry sticks and rocks and the TP is just for the final touch. A few years back my daughter dropped our only TP off a 600-foot cliff on day 3 of a 20 day trip, just before dark. It rained all night. An avid reader, she had a book, so the reading requirement 1/20th of the book each day! I carry all TP out.

I just rinse pots with cold water and hot water about every 3rd day. I am VERY careful cooking so never burn food in the pot. I use titanium cookware. Pinecones are great pot scrubbers as are dense clumps of spruce needles.

Oldranger
re: snowballs <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
Right theres always one alpinist in the group. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

However snow balls have several special features - they cool, and actually clean, and ya don't feel obliged to carry em out... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Wandering Daisy
I notice your from California - the best pot scrubber there is Sierra sand. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yep - gotta make another affirmation for snow balls as the TP of choice among discriminating outdoor people. Snowballs are cleansing, refreshing, no hassle and pose a minimal impact to the environment.

In fact, snowballs may be helpful to the environment because it is easy to "disperse" those individual quantities of waste by throwing them to a wider-spread area. This leads to a less concentrated deposit area. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I must mention that using your used TP snowball in a snowball fight is definitely uncouth and will not be appreciated by other parties - either by your team members or the opposing team. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Another thing to consider is that bacteria rather likes setting up a community in your pot scrubbing pad.

My solution is to primarily eat meals that only require boiling water. I eat them out of the bag. Nothing to wash except the utensil.

Well, thats a relief!
I now understand that the moss is not a threat to my well-being in the outdoor
But are you suggesting that ion and other components of the cooking pots, in my case, scratched non-stick coated alunimun pots, will eventually sterilize the pots?

I would want to have deeper understanding of this issue

Thanks in advance

Well, I'd have to look up specific figures. One of the most popular quotes here is about people making up their own statistics, and I always have to fight that tendency myself <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It was under a day, I can say confidently, and I believe a few hours for most bacteria. Viruses take longer since the things are so darn tough, but you won't be getting viruses in your cooking pot!

The general idea: Dry metal has a certain level of electrical charge found as ions 'floating' on the surface of a metal. Bacteria, when exposed to this, have to compensate for the extreme force this exerts on a cell membrane. They can't compensate for very long, and die as their membranes are ruptured. In the wild, bacteria would just move away from any dangerous environments like that. Can't do that on a cooking pot, it's just too big from a bacteria's point of view! There are a few bugs that have evolved to survive on metal or in other extremely hostile territory, but they are so specialized for this that they pose zero threat to other life.

As long as your pot is clean and doesn't have food sticking to the sides, the surface of the aluminum pot will kill bacteria pretty rapidly. It obviously depends on a few things - the specific metal, the specific bacteria, the moisture content, but overall metal will kill bacteria very well. Let me point out that now manufacturers are treating sandals and other items with 'embedded metal ions' like zinc to kill bacteria. That's pretty convincing by itself, if you aren't familiar with the science backing it up.

If that doesn't convince you, however, let me detail your second line of defense against food bugs. It's my favorite 'defense', and probably the ultimate, and I am kicking myself for not talking about it earlier. It renders discussion of bacteria dying on the metal pot pretty pointless. I'm talking about COOKING! By boiling water in a pot, you are actually doing a wonderful job of killing everything that might have somehow stayed alive in the pot (and in the water). No problematic bacteria can survive high temperatures. Just the act of heating and boiling your water will result in a pretty clean pot.

In fact it's so effective that you could probably take a moldy pot with food crusted on the sides, boil it for a while, and then eat out of it. Not that I'd suggest doing that, though!

So, in the end, a dry clean pot kills bacteria, and heating up your food/water kills anything that might have escaped the cleaning process. Even the lower boiling point at altitude is deadly to bacteria, especially with extended exposure.

Scratches aren't a problem, and lack of a non-stick coating just means bacteria is pushed right onto the raw metal where it dies quickly. Like someone else said, do NOT use a plastic sponge or plastic scrubber or plastic brush if you are worried about bacteria. Plastic sponges and scrubbers become bacterial havens and you end up re-wiping the pot down with bacteria instead of cleaning it.

I agree about scrubbers holding bacteria. If you want to use something other than sand for your nonstick pans, the best I've found is the plastic netting that they sometimes package melons, onions, etc., in. It does not retain food particles or moisture after rinsing, and weighs nothing.

Snowballs rule! Not only are you clean, you are refreshed! I just use a square or two of TP for the final polish.

I am also in the boiling water only cooking fraternity. Never any food in the pot, so nothing to clean. The plastic bowl get rinsed out, and I drink the water for that extra edge of hydration. I always let the bowl dry thoroughly, and expose it to the sun. Those little bacteria don't like that high-altitude sun. Of course, if you're snow camping, you can always clean the pot with ..... a snowball!

Been doing this for eons Debbie, now at least there's 2 of us! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Great minds think alike!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

For every human cell in or on the human body there are 10 bug cells. The vast majority of these are good bugs. They do more than just help us digest our food. They interact with our bodies in many ways, most of which we haven't discovered yet. They protect our bodies, which is their ecosytem, much better than we protect our ecosystem. Many of these bugs we get from dirt. Most bad bugs we get from other people. We need more dirt in our lives.

That truly sounds enlightening

Xelif gives a nice summary! Don't use ferns, use mullien its luxurious! Now, whatever will you find to worry about next? Did you read that the non stick coatings are probably poisonous?

Don't worry, be happy

Ecrow

You could always read the post on dihydrogen monoxide. Now there is something to worry about. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Hopefully, not a "used" snowball ! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Brum

Be warned... Chiggers (red bugs to you Southerners) live in moss, and mites actually colonize in moss.. Particularly, moss that is lying around on the ground. Chiggers like to burrow INTO your flesh so you can't scratch them out easily.

Also, mosses don't package their male gametes in pollen, as flowers do, but rely instead on swimming sperm. Textbooks state that moss sperm need to swim or splash to a female moss tuft. However, an experiment with a common moss species shows that moss sperm hitchhike on mites and tiny insects living within the moss itself. Get the picture? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Brum

MockTurtle wrote:



A live goose or bunny will never be allowed near my berries. Brum

hey, JAK, I've got some "good" scorpions living in the dirt down here if you want to interact with them when you wipe with Mother Nature <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Brum

So...she should only wipe with female moss? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I never knew that there was male moss and female moss. I only know that I once used a wad of moss to sop up the morning dew to drink (can get a quart of water this way in about an hour). I sure hope it was female moss! Thinking that I swallowed male moss sperm seems...un-manly! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you start lisping don't say you weren't warned to stay away from using moss... on either end. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Brum

You've got lots of scary stuff way down south there eh. I be staying up here, rolling around in our manly northern dirt and snow, where all moss is manly and God fearing, and our sheep are safe and not worried.

None of them fruiting bodies allowed up her. No siree. Winter keeps em all righteous.

Aren't you in New Brunswick? The story as I heard it was rubber boots and velcro gloves were invented in New Brunswick. I think that sheep comment is unsubstantiated <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don't know what your talking about. Perhaps a few are a bit worried now and then, but the ones that I know are quite safe, most of them anyways. OK, perhaps I've developed some rather intimate and co-dependant relationships with a few of my wool sweaters, and this might disturb some people, but it gets mighty cold and lonely out here sometimes, OK.

I don't leave home without sufficient disposable wipes, sanitizing gel, and some salve/balm.

I've had much more uncomfort from rash in the wrong place on a trip than any heavy gear, blister, or slip/fall.

For pots I wash them cold and scour when I have access to water and prefer boiling something in it's own pack when I don't.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Those are to make sure they keep a grip on their wool, sweaters of course <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I know the feeling JAK, having been a sheep farmer, and owning a few of my own wool sweaters <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I carry some toilet paper on my trail~

Take TP if you wish, but put used TP in a good plastic bag and carry it out. Learn how to wash yourself and do without if you loose the TP or run out. As for pots, I use the clean with hand and rinse in cold water. Evergreen needle bunches or small pinecones make good scrubbers.

As for losing TP - it happens. On one 18-day trip our TP rolled off a cliff on day 3! We had a book - and 10 pages of reading became required every day!

Eat out of a plastic container, not your pot. Dehydrated stuff rehydrates in bags or plastic bowls/containers fine. Boil water and pour, you have a clean pot 100% of the time.

I have taken a Brawny towel to wipe out pot/pan - these are rinsable, away from the water source!, and dry fast in the sun. When it becomes too stained and tattered it makes good tinder when we finally drop below 10,000 feet and build a fire.

Use TP and pack out in a ziploc bag adequate to the task. A friend will take a lighter and burn the used TP in her cathole. Better than leaving it for creatures to dig up and decorate the wilderness with, I suppose.

Something that I find useful for a toilet paper substitute is to take wipes that I have dried out ahead of time (reduces weight) and then re-wet them once on the trail. Make sure you use treated water for this too! You can introduce parasites to your body at either end. It takes way less material using this method than trying to use dry toilet paper-and since they contain some cotton, they hold up to being wet much better.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I can get by on two or three wipes with what would normally take several feet of toilet paper. It is much cleaner too!

I take TP and wipes and I pack out. There are just some things this tush requires for this backpacker to be happy. So there. :p