Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or....

I've got a few hikes and backpacking trips planned for this year and what should pop into my head first when thinking about hiking in the beautiful backwoods...the pain. The straps cutting in, the weight shifting back n forth and not enjoying the hike as much as I'd like to. So in attempt to cut pack weight I've actually been considering ditching the tent since I always have a tarp anyway and this year I'll have a tyvek tarp to work with. Every trip I've ever been on has been with people who really have little more experience then me. So I've always just followed their example. We usually have a tarp over our common area and then another one over our tents in addition to the rain flies on the tents, which in my experience has always been ideal with the crappy tents I've owned. So I've always carried 2 tarps and my tent. Its also been my experience that there is never a nice spot to set a tarp n tent close to the fire that would be suitable for sleeping. So i've always been under the impression that you need a tent and tarp to feel all warm n fuzzy inside.

Well now I want some opinions from more experienced backpackers about your experiences with using just a tarp and maybe the best set ups, how to stay warm under a tarp when your 40ft away from the fire. Which do you prefer, a tent, tarp, or a tarp tent?

Honestly it really depends where I am. I've spent days on a rainy west coast trail with nothing but a tarp (an integral designs silwing) and a wide blue pad. There's no bugs, and I'm usually camping on sand around big logs next to the ocean. The sand is comfy, and dry once the tarp is over it, even in the rain. My sleeping bag's warm, I'm good. I've similary spent lots of time just under a tarp in other places when I know there aren't bugs. Rigged over my trekking poles, that silwing weighs about 500 grams and has acres of space under it - so even if the weather isn't great, when it's just me there's plenty of nice dry area under it.


I've also spent lots of time in a hammock, hung under a square silnylon tarp of the same thing as above - heavier, but very comfortable. bug net keeps out the bugs. I've had total howling storms around me and rivers of water underneath me, and been totally comfortable.


I've spent lots of time in light weight one man backpacking tents - six moon designs lunar solo, and my black diamond one shot. These weigh a little more, (the lunar solo about 750 grams, and the black diamond about 1150) - but these are what I use when I'm completely exposed, above the treeline, and with bugs - as they have bugnets and I can escape the mosquitoes.

I normally have a small poncho tarp with me (silnylon) that weighs about 300 grams. I can rig it as a small tarp if I need something to sit under in addition to my shelter. I don't very much.

But what I pick depends very much on where I am going.

As far as shelters- warmth in choosing a 3 season tent or shelter really shouldn't be an issue and not even so much in winter. You should be relying on your sleep gear to keep you warm. Yes wind blocking is a part of it but most of the work of your shelter should be in keeping you dry and in our part of the world...bug free. If you are in need of pitching a tarp over your tent its time to replace the tent. A good tent should keep you very dry on its own outside of any internal moisture problems occurring from condensation, which you may or may not overcome due to adverse circumstances.

As far as pitching near the fire, that's not something I would even think of with all the very expensive and flammable gear inside my tent including the stuff Im wearing. Again I don't rely on a fire to keep me warm but my sleeping gear. If you want to learn some good tips on using a fire to keep your shelter warm take a look at some of billstephenson posts. He is making a science out of it. Very cool homemade tent set up and getting really warm internal temps.

The extra weight of two tarps in addition to a tent is what may be causing that painful feeling on your back. My advise would be to figure out what type sheltering and sleeping gear will best suit you. It can be a lightweight tent or a tarp or some hybrid in between. It can be as simple as sleeping under the stars in a bivy set up or under tarp hammock kit. You will need to think of what conditions you will need to overcome such as rain, humidity, biting insects, site conditions including things like ground surface and availability of trees (hammock camping) and such. Once you decide what the best shelter for you is then decide how much weight you are willing to carry for such shelter. Not always but much of the UL gear will cost more for less weight. Therefore sometime budgets can be a big part of gear choices.

I don't want to influence your choice but I will tell you that we use an UL tent of just over 2 lbs. and that is split between the wife and I so it works out to be VERY light for us. Our choice for a tent over a tarp, bivy or hammock were mostly based on mosquitos. Neither of us can tolerate the freekin little buggers. I might look into a tarp or hammock set up but for a pound in my pack I don't think I can do much better for what I'm getting now.

Best of luck with your shelter choice. Let us know how you make out.

jimmby

Oh, and normally, if I have a fire I normally don't pitch anything anywhere near it. I'm not averse to having a fire if there is time, and it's appropriate. but most places I go It's either not allowed, or it's a sensitive enough area that I won't do it on LNT principles.

However talking to us as someone who obviously spends a lot of time in camp, you may find our attitude towards smaller lighter shelters a bit strange - but most of the time when I am out I get up with the sun, and I walk pretty much *all day* - but bear in mind I'm hardly "ultralight" - my pack for a weekender in the rockies will weigh about 13-15 pounds starting on the trail with two days food and a litre of water in it. And that's why I like to walk all day. I stop and camp at the *end* of the day, make and eat my dinner, and sleep. I don't spend a lot of time in camp, so I don't like to bring along a lot of camp.

it does become kind of a chicken and egg thing if you're not used to that though. If you spend half your time in camp, you want to take more stuff.. you take more stuff.. your pack is heavy.. your pack is heavy, it hurts, you stop earlier, you spend more time in camp Vicious circle.

In inclement weather, I vastly prefer a hammock. Room to sit and enjoy the ride without being hunkered over, the ability to set up and use the stove, a ridge line to lay out wet clothes - I've done it all, in a 14 hour rainstorm, while my friends (I'm not kidding, it was this mixed) were in their bivy, poncho tarp/bivy combo, and tents. Pretty much everyone munched on trail mix while I boiled water and made my meal, and enjoyed it sitting comfortably upright. I didn't have to drag muddy gear in with me, and didn't have any issues with leakage. The next day I packed up dry gear while everyone else put out their bags to hopefully dry out a little of the wet they invited in when trying to get in or out to pee.

In trips where I'm alpine or without the ability to hammock due to other restrictions (some of the parks I've hiked in do not allow hammocks) I take my Lightheart Gear Solo, which works great with my trekking poles.

Sometimes I just take the tarp I use for the hammock, and tarp on the ground.

I wouldn't trust a tyvek tarp if you paid me - I have a tyvek tent, one of the Tarptent Sublites. Fantastic for managing condensation - you won't have any. What you won't have is rain protection if it does more than sprinkle I literally poured gallons out of the bathtub floor after bailing to the car on a trip to the coast. It rained a good 6 inches that night. I sat in the car and waited - the tent filled up with water, and weighed probably 5 lbs after I emptied the floor. Soaked the very fabric of it through.

And as far as staying warm goes, There is an unviolable section of my pack with my sleeping bag, dry sleeping socks, dry set of merino long johns, and a toque. These things are never worn outside my shelter. You can take a fire hose to me and I know if I get my shelter up, get my pack into it, get my dry clothing out, get in my sleeping bag, I will be warm.

I really do love riding out a storm in a hammock. I find the noise of rain on a tight pitch tarp while I sit below it relaxing.

I do think one of my favorite hammock experiences was in Tekarra in jasper, where I got mine up under the tarp just ahead of a monsterous set of tstorms. I had a pot of tea made, and was sitting in the hammock, when three newbies came in soaked to the bone. I invited them to come sit with me till it passed over. The two young ladies did (apparently I'm old enough that I'm "safe") while the young guy was too grumpy and proceeded to stop off, find a horrificly muddy site and flail around half an hour setting up a tent. I had a wonderful time with the young ladies trying very hard not to laugh. I noticed later he was probably grumpy because he was being mr macho carry everything, and was carrying their regular stainless steel kitchen pots and pans and (swear to god) a large size wooden cutting board.. never mind the other stuff...

Ha, yes, they do that don't they? I'll never forget going to Sykes Hot Springs and setting up the hammock near a couple in an REI tent - set up my alcohol stove and boiled two cups of water while he filled a stock pot with veggies and sausage and made this immense stew for the two of them while telling her how wonderful a backpacker he was.... turns out she had just met him for the first time from an online dating site and flew over from Texas(!) just to backpack this very difficult hike with him (5,000 feet cumulative gain, 10 miles one way). She'd seen this animal she thought was a monkey (it was a ringtail) and I reassured her it wasn't dangerous....

You were horning in on his territory, dude. All the impressing was supposed to be his!

Best tarp on the market! I have the Tadpole version.

I've carried mine with the tent just have somewhere hang out in event of rain. 10oz tarp isn't big enough fuss for me to be a weight weenie about it. This tarp served as my hammock tarp and general utility tarp when I'm hiking with someone so we can cook under the rain together, and just mellow out before we go to sleep in our own tents. When I'm soloing I'll ditch the tarp altogether and just stick to my tent, unless I'm hammock camping in which case I'll need the tarp.

You should look into tents that has a fast fly feature. Where you can ditch the tent body, and use ground cloth and rain fly as shelter. My Big Agnes has this feature. I've never backpacked like this because, well, I detest bugs...

Yeah, I know but it's just too funny. I'm a fat forty something with grey in my beard. I don't impress twenty somethings

I'm 24, if a girl ever ends up backpacking with me she can carry her own freaking weight!

Please don't let chivalry die completely.. Never say never dude - I've been known to carry the tent and food for the right girl:

http://pics.obtuse.com/Nigel2011/

Thanks for the link, as I'm looking for a tarp upgrade.
I think very much like you do. I do fast pitch my BA in cooler weather. It rocks! Bug protection in the Adirondacks is a must in warmer weather. I never set my tent or tarp near fire, popping sap pockets send embers long distances and I don't need drain holes in my fly or tarp. Swizzle, you might consider using some of the numerous ADK shelters. Even if someone is camped inside them, you can still cook in the rain under shelter. Saves a lot of hassle hauling in tarps and such. I've never used a tent heater, with the exception of candle lanterns, and that was sub-zero. I'd seriously re-consider your sleep and shelter system to fit the conditions you wish to hike in and not rely on fire to keep you comfortable. A lot of the campsites I've used in the daks were stripped of firewood by mid-summer, unless you want to practice rape and pillage and burn instead of Leave No Trace.
Many do, I know you don't.

Sometimes, I end up carrying some guy's pack for him. He never comes backpacking with us again. Especially if he figures out I'm twice his age.

I suppose he didn't pay attention to the part about cougars preying on the young and weak eh lori?

Wow, quite the response!! Well I guess first off I should say that I decided to go with an ultra light tent and spent over a $150+ for a 2lb bivy. I think part of the weight savings is the lack of rainfly material. That's why I always double up with the tarp. The tent I use is a major PITA to move around in, Not much room at all and any activities I do are laying down or propped up on my elbow. To go pee in the middle of the night is a chore to say the least. I've been on several cold trips where the gear I can afford is less then adequate for the conditions. I know its also a false sense of security having a tent and after waking up on the last camping trip with a bear in camp and realizing my drunk buds needed a rock to cook with and replaced that rock, on my tarp, with a 10lb roaster chicken! Yeah I may have so issues with sleeping around my friends on these backpacking/survival trips. I am however getting away from that group more and more and want it all without the added weight. I've always carried a wally world 10x12 tarp for the main area, I guess in part because I'm the only one that ever has tarps so I've always beared the extra weight for everyone.

So I think if I beef up my rain gear just a tad I can do away with the main area tarp and let them all run around like confused children for a bit. How do I beef up my rainfly though? I would love to have a little over hang that I can stand under when I first climb out. It doesn't have to be huge just enough to cover the entire tent and a little extra by the door. It also may be a little too late but I order a big ol' chunk of tyvek and it should be in the mail already. Is tyvek really that bad? I've been hearing nothing but good about it outside of the material being noisy and having to wash it with sneakers to cure that. I know its overkill but I ordered a 9'x12' piece. I may end up cutting it in half so I have 2 9x8's instead. We do tend to have a fire every time i'm out and I've gone out and scavenged all down and dead wood within an hour and had enough wood for the weekend only to come back with the last load and to find the weekend warriors doing a sacred beer guzzling dance around the fire pit with 8ft high flames as the last of the wood I've bought over on the previous trip has been tossed on. Yeah trying to get away from certain friends when I'm camping. Decent people, until you let them loose into the forest. Ok so that leaves me with long story short: Beef up rain gear, ditch common area tarp. Ditch rain fly and hopefully find a way to configure a tarp to be a super rainfly! Sounds reasonable. I might not be ditching the tent yet but I do see that I've cut some weight. So my next thread I suppose should be my sleep system. Thanx everyone.

Forgot to mention that I have had the joyful experience of spending more then a few nights in an adk lean-to. Only bad thing about that is they are always first come, first serve. I guess I may have kinda fantasized about having a smaller personal lean to closer to a fire. I've seen so many pics depicting this very scene and it just looks so nice. I may try it with a baker tent set up some wintery day just for the sake of experiencing it.

I'm going to offer that you might want to think about a "Campfire Tent" like the one I made a couple years ago:





I like this tent a lot. It's not pretty, but it sure is comfortable. You can make one in a couple evenings for about $35 out of SOL emergency blankets, visqueen, and fiber reinforced duct tape. It weighs under 3 pounds with stakes and guy lines and can be pitched in a wide variety of ways.

I've set it up in some vicious storms and it's held up pretty good and stayed dry, and climbing into a warm sleeping bag is a pretty sweet feature.

If you google "Super Shelter" you can learn more about the basic design and there are quite a few videos on youtube showing them in use.

I've carried the vast majority of the weight for 25 years, but I ain't complainin'. At least she always sets up the tent, even IN the rain....

I love that set up and with some extra caution on firewood control like not inviting the bonfire committee I'd love to do it. Always loved the looks of lean-to's and bakers tents. With the newer lighter weight materials something like this would be a god sent. I really should look into building one. I'm thinking just a little larger 2 man design so I can have plenty of room for myself or still be able to bring my oldest along have room for the both of us. Really sweet looking set up. I know a lot of people disagree with having a fire and at times there is a ban here on the east coast as well. I look at it this way, if the wood is down, and readily available then why not. If I really want to get away from that situation well then I scroll through some topo maps, get some coordinates and extra batteries and into the forest I go off the beaten path. I've done complete all day hikes without needing or in most cases even wanting a fire when when it comes down to camping over night and my previous experiences with wildlife I just like the little extra added comfort of having a fire.

Can't go wrong with Wilderness Logic. Over at the Hammock Forum, his tarp are wildly popular. I actually bought my tarp for $75 bucks, I noticed it's now $90. It got popular fast!

If you want something lighter in your system, and don't wanna spend a ton of dough, You could always try a silnylon poncho tarp like This one from campmor - I carry something similar a lot. works as rainger, or a small tarp.

just watch out with nice light silnylon near fires - embers burn holes in it quick

That's a very real possibility. Thank You.

You have some interesting friends....It sounds to me like you need to do more solo/group hiking instead of group/group hiking. I just made those terms up, but what they mean is...
Solo/group is when you are with a group, but all gear is done solo. You bring your own everything and don't share anything, but still hike as a group. An even looser interpretation is that you all meet at certain points in the hike, like lunch or camp and kinda just hang out with each other, but are free to do what you want.
Group/group is when you are always with the group, never split up, and share equipment.
There are benefits and drawbacks to both. The group/group only works with a leader though. Someone has to make final decisions and make sure everyone is pulling their own weight. If there is no leader, then solo/group is a really good alternative.

If your tent didn't come with a fly, then it is a single wall tent and doesn't need one. Have you tested it in the rain? You can set it up in your yard and use the hose too. If it leaks and needs a fly, but doesn't have one...then time to ditch it. A single wall, somewhat waterproof tent, with a tarp over it is probably going to be a condensation monster. Might as well have the same tarp with a net-only tent instead. Like this one.. meteor bivy
or this one... Ray Jardine net tent

As far as fire goes...I like fire, but not enough to do too much work. If there is no fire ban, and others in my group want one, I make them do it all. Sometimes I might contribute a bit of wood, but if they are burning through it...I am not collecting it.
When I am with my scouts, I make them do all the gathering. But, sometimes I go out and show them how easy it is to get dry wood. Then if I have to start the fire...I throw all the wood on it, making them have to go back and get more...I am mean like that. Of course, with scouts I am trying to teach them life principles.
Also, for safety, I always plan to not have a fire. If you can't walk into camp soaking wet and cold, and then set up camp and get dry and warm without a fire, you really need to rethink your gear choices. Fire should always be a luxury, not a necessity.

What should I be looking for then for gear that doesn't need a lot of heat or high winds to dry. Call it a lack of experience or knowledge but I've never really thought that it was possible to arrive at camp wet and be able to get dry without a fire. I'm assuming base layers would be the start. How fast can some of these items dry out? I'm assuming a clothes line of sorts is involved? I've been camping in sideways rain with trees falling around me so I know how hard it can be to stay dry.

Line your pack with a garbage bag. Wear a tarp /poncho The poncho will cover your pack, too. Put your tarp/tent where you can get at it first out of the pack. Keep it outside the liner.
Set your shelter, get inside, replace whatever clothes need replacing. For the time being put your wet things in a plastic bag or stuff sack. My wife and I have walked in rain for 3 days straight and slept warm and dry. I like tents that you can put up the fly, crawl underneath and clip up the inner. Tarps are quick and easy for the rain. ALWAYS keep your sleeping gear and a set of sleep wear dry. If you have to put damp clothes back on in the morning, just get moving and you'll warm up, especially if you use a base layer of Merino wool. Fleece seems to work fine for me damp, also. I don't expect perfect comfort levels in wilderness, just tolerable ones. Adventure comes in adversity.
I do carry a mesh bag to tie outside my pack for things to dry in as I walk if the rain has stopped the next day.

Have a look at list in my signature, and look up lists on this site.

Short answer - synthetics.

Slightly longer answer:

I normally (outside of serious weather) wear synthetic underwear, synthetic pants, and a synthetic shirt. I sweat while I hike, and I might get wet. rainy weather I have a shell on, and maybe a fleece - I'm usually more concerned about being *cold* than wet.

Now my pants are nice high end schoeller fabric - but I'm a princess. a nice pair of nylon pants from the thrift store will also work fine - polyester dress pants are actually good if you can get a good fit.

Most of my "keep it dry and warm" stuff is wool. often merino. but well, I hike a lot and I can afford it. You can do very well
with synthetic (fleece) warm layers or nice cheap wool sweaters from the thrift store.

Note, if I get wet while walking, that's fine. I keep walking, and stay warm, either by moving, or putting on a shell and fleece. once I stop, I put up my shelter, get into enough dry stuff to be comfortable. I may hang out my pants and socks at night to get some dry on them, but this sometimes mean I get to put on cold icky wet stuff in the morning, which is unpleasant for the first few minutes until I start moving around. Normally it's enough for me to do that.

It also helps if you have a good sleeping bag. You should be able to get into your bag, cold, and warm up

I never paid enough attention to the layers. Always been a tshirt out of my drawer and whatever sweater or hoodies that's warm and my winter coat and rain jacket if need be. Almost impossible to get the rain jacket on over my coat. I've never been a big fan of ponchos, most likely since I usually only have the trash bag style emergency type. It looks like I could really benefit by breaking down and analyzing all of my gear. I've been seeing a few "wicking" tees here and there so I'm guessing I should start with wicking fabrics. Also considering a down sweater and will be getting a down jacket soon. That's my next goal is to possibly do away with my sleeping bag. If I could find some down pants I think I could do it. I do like the tarp poncho idea and I love the rainfly that the tent clips too as well. Some ideas to mull over. Thank you everyone.

If you are really interested in lightening your pack, I suggest you read the articles and gear lists on the home page of this site, left hand column, if you haven't already. The lists were designed for the Pacific NW, which is quite soggy and cool for 9-10 months of the year. Another good article is this one by guide and thru-hiker Paul Magnati.

I have backpacked without a campfire for the last 30 years, except for a very few occasions when it was legal (only when fire danger was low) and my grandkids were with me. In most of the places I backpack (above timberline or during our annual dry season when fire danger is high), campfires are forbidden. Plus I've gotten so used to not having a fire that I really don't want one--I'd rather explore the area around camp, watch the sunset, and admire the stars.

Synthetic clothing dries really fast just with body heat. Even if I'm sopping wet, mine will be dry after 20 minutes of hiking or other fairly vigorous activity. (Keep in mind that I'm a slow hiker, so my activity really isn't all that vigorous.) Normally, as soon as it starts raining, I immediately put on rain jacket and pants to keep my clothing dry. The only exception is in a warm drizzle, in which I get as wet inside the rain gear as I would from the rain, and it's warm enough that as long as I keep moving, I don't need to worry about hypothermia. I love natural fabrics, especially cotton, but I don't wear them backpacking, and I'm truly thankful for modern synthetics every time I get even damp!

If you need a fire to dry your clothing, I strongly suspect that you may be wearing cotton, which absorbs a lot of water and takes a long time to dry. If so, I strongly recommend you ditch those items (wear them at home, not in the wilds). You don't have to buy expensive "hiking clothing." You can find things like nylon track pants, synthetic wicking shirts (such Underarmor), and polyester fleece at any big box store (KMart, wallyworld, discount sporting goods chains) and often at your local thrift stores. Most will be in the athletic section. Some may already be in your closet!

For the items in your pack, use a pack liner to keep them dry. The cheapest is a 2 mil plastic trash compactor bag, IF you can find any that aren't scented (I've had no luck there). A contractor's trash bag (2-2.5 mil) is also a possibility. Make sure it's fastened tightly (twist the top and then fold over into a "candy cane" closure). One of phat's posts above talks about the gear he keeps dry at all costs--base layer and insulation (sleeping bag and insulating clothes layers such as my puffy jacket). I do the same.

If it has been warm but wet and I've not worn rain gear, my shirt, pants, undies, socks go into a 2-gallon plastic ziplock bag which goes into my sleeping bag (no, you don't want wet clothing in your sleeping bag). It of course doesn't dry (or get the sleeping bag damp), but it's warm when I put it on in the morning and, as mentioned, dries really fast from my body heat.

Even the time I slipped and fell (big splash and considerable unladylike language!) while fording a creek, I was dry after 20 minutes of hiking. The exception was my goretex lined boots, which took several days to dry--and that was the last time I ever wore goretex-lined footwear! If it had been cold, say the low 40s F or below, I might have stopped and built a fire, certainly if hiking wasn't enough to keep me warm. If it had been windy, while moving I would have put on my rain gear and stayed warm but wet inside, and my shirt/pants would have at least gotten drier, if not completely dry. Fortunately, the temp was in the mid 50's F so I was fine as long as I kept moving. My extra clothing and sleeping bag were all in waterproof dry bags (alternative to the waterproof pack liner) and not a drop of water got to them.

IMHO, a campfire is a luxury except in a dire emergency, and part of the skills needed for backpacking include learning to avoid such emergencies if at all possible.

OM, please don't read this as an attack on you. It's not. Your opinion is common and the following rant in response is really offered in a very general way.

IMHO that's a very Western States attitude that really should stay out west. There is no good reason, no matter how delicately put, to admonish people here about having campfires.

The thing that sticks in my craw about this opinion when it's preached beyond your (westerners) area is that it feels very much like we're being told campfires are irresponsible and reckless and akin to dumping toxic waste in the pristine wilderness. And it's constantly preached beyond the Western States.

I've watched it move beyond necessity to a self declared more refined lifestyle that's now presented as if the unlearned destroy the Feng shui for the more cultured and refined backpacker because we haven't reached that higher plateau where the truly enlightened backpacker has learned to become one with the forest nights.

The truth is still the truth. You don't have campfires out there because you can't. The reason you can't is because too many reckless people out there burn the forests up. But to leap from that truth to believing not having them anywhere is a higher state of being is nothing more than an exaggerated sense of one's self.

The flip side to the lack of enlightenment admonishment so often doled out to us less refined is that the Western Backpacker has lost touch with the simple pleasure one can experience by letting themselves become mesmerized in our deep human connection with sitting by a fire at night, and how sad it is for this to have happened to them.

The difference is that this is not constantly preached at those out west. We actually understand the reasons why you can't have campfires and we don't have them when we go out there backpacking.

Y'all never come here. For the most part westerners think there's no place here worth backpacking. Most every backpacker I know here has backpacked out west, and most all of them say they like backpacking here better, and having campfires is always one of the top reasons.

My observations are somewhat validated by the time I've spent living in both regions, but my conclusions are still just a general critique of the western backpacker's views on campfires and should not be taken as a personal attack on anyone. I'll add that one does not have to live out west to qualify my lumping them in there either. We have self proclaimed "Enlightened" backpackers here too that think hiking off trail is a desecration of the forests. Opinions are funny that way. Trails look just like giant scars on the forest to me.

One might stretch that into "I'd only use a trail in an emergency and part of the skills needed for backpacking include learning to avoid such emergencies". But I won't.

Bill, I apologize if my wording made you think I'm condemning campfires. Such was not my intention!

You noticed, I hope, that I prefaced my comments with IMHO--in my humble opinion, which is that of one person, me. Obviously there are as many other opinions out there as there are people to have them, which is just fine.

Even back east (for us, that's anything east of the Rockies, LOL), there are situations in which either fires are not allowed because of their long-term impact (there are strict altitude restrictions on fires in New Hampshire's White Mountains, for example), or all the wood is just too soggy to build one without considerable effort (happens out here, too, in our wet season), or there is high fire danger--droughts and forest fires occur in the East, too, just not as frequently. I have lived in and hiked in the East and Midwest (Pennsylvania and Michigan, mostly) and encountered all three situations at various times.

One of the Leave No Trace principles is "Minimize campfire impacts" (it does not say no fires!). In many areas there are, of course, a number of ways to do this without forgoing a fire, especially in low altitude damp forest. I just happen to feel that, for me, a fire is a lot more trouble than it's worth, even if I am where they are OK. I also far prefer backpacking in alpine areas, where fires are a no-no because of their long-lasting impact, to low altitude forest where fires are normally OK outside of the fire danger season.

My whole purpose in stating why I don't have campfires was simply to point out to the OP, who apparently believes it essential to dry out by a fire every night, that it's quite possible to get along without a campfire, and I described some of the techniques to use. I was not trying to admonish anyone, and I'm truly sorry you took it that way.

I do believe (and that's my opinion) that a campfire should be a luxury. If people want to and can indulge in one every night, that's fine. I indulge in quite a few luxuries (although not a fire) myself! My point is that we shouldn't have to depend on a fire for daily survival. For example, in my experience it's far better to strip off wet clothing and get promptly into a dry sleeping bag to stay warm than to wander around in the rain shivering trying to find something that will burn after a cloudburst! (Been there, done that, don't recommend it!)

Again, I'm not condemning all fires, just stating that it's quite possible and also a good idea to be able to do without one if necessary.

Sticking my neck out I will say "well said". Sometimes I really get that feeling and IMO a lot of it is simply the growing divide between liberal and conservative personalities having NOTHING to do with politics. I get the same feeling sometimes when I tell people I sleep in a tent. Well it seems its not "Chic" to carry a more or less self contained ground sleeping shelter...even if it weighs less than someone's tarp or hammock set up. Geez, get over it. I like to sleep on the ground. East, Midwest, West, North and South in this vast country have many inherent differences. We need to understand that what is right for one may not be so for the other.

Fires for me are very enjoyable if I have the time at the end of the day and am not tired enough to just hit the hay. On average I go without. On the other hand I respect the rules and regs. when elsewhere in the country. I would never think of having a fire during a dry spell be it East OR West. I will say if I'm going to have a fire out East here it will be in a pre designated AT fire ring or similar camp sight but that's just me. I do have a problem with fire rings left every where especially in no fire zones. That burns my *ss. (no pun intended) I don't want to see the remains of anyone's fire. If your practicing LNT than that is fine, I wont be seeing your fire remains anyway. Hopefully the OP will practice LNT, keep his fires to a minimum and disperse the remains properly when leaving his camp.

In closing, OM I have no doubt that your post was not intended to step on any toes and I think both you and Bill have given due respect to each other in your posts.

jimmyb

No apologies are warranted. Not in the least.

I understood your intentions and I understand your view on fires. You made it clear to me that you were speaking of your personal way of doing things.

My response is intended to address the broader issue of rather or not a campfire is "bad etiquette" and the fact that some backpackers do feel very strongly that it is, and how others might feel when they read opinions like yours, which might be easy to put in the context I refer to, as an admonishment. It's very similar to how foreigner's feel when americans go there and tell them "You're doing it all wrong" before they've even asked why they do things the way they do.

Personally, I don't get all freaked out when I see a fire ring. I do detest finding trash in them, but fire rings don't bother me in the least. I see them as a sign someone enjoyed themselves out there and I don't see a reason to let that bother me.

My personal preferences is to LNT and you can do that here with a small fire. I like knowing no one could tell I've camped somewhere, or at least not easily.

Bill I think the trash issue is what bothers me about most of the fire sights I come across. If they are not used as trash bins OK but most I've seen have been. Farther off the trailhead is not usually an issue but broken glass around a fire sight could end some ones day on a really bad note.. Last outing I dispersed one at an AT sight. The rules, in that area at least, were to use the communal fire at the hut but sure enough right in the middle of a nice tent area was a redundant ring. Another roaring fire was made by yet another party just down the hill from us. Soon it becomes more like a campground than a trail experience. But that may be one of the differences in two areas of BPing. Easy access to the AT is great for some quick local weekenders but unfortunately it comes with a price.

jimmyb

It's pretty much the same here at the popular campsites. There are some really nice, and easily accessible, swimming holes here that get trashed bad. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and walk away. And sometimes you have to pick up their bottles and bean them with one

I've been to several places in the Adirondacks that are scorched and trashed from irresponsible campers. I do my best to just realize that its a strong possibility that I'm gonna see trash and try to not let it bother me. I take a little comfort knowing that after a weekend of camping a little more room is made. I usually pack up some old cans and any bottles and hike them back out. If I focus on that one piece o trash then it really dampens the whole trip. It is what it is and try to leave the place a little better then the last guy/girl or group.

I also know how sickening it is to see charred sticks still leaning up against charred bark on a live tree with a cement fire pit literally 30ft away. To see the forest duff scorched for several acres. It's a lot of stupidity and inexperienced young hikers.

Wait...weren't we talking about tarps?

Bill, first off, you know I live out west. Most of the time, and most of the places I go allow fires. So, this is not a dis on fires, and has nothing to do with their use in recreational activities.

However, when talking about safety, I think fires should be a luxury. The most difficult situation to light a fire is also the most dangerous to be in, ie, cold and wet. If you are drenched to the bone and all the wood around you is soaked...you have a small chance to light a fire and get warm. It is more responsible to have another plan.
Of course, you should still have a backup plan of a fire. I try and practice lighting a fire with wet wood, and also carry several means of starting a fire.
But, sometimes Murphy just doesn't like me!

I completely agree. If you're needing to light a fire to stay alive too many things have already gone wrong.