Stoves!

Posted by: rockchucker22

Stoves! - 02/03/14 01:40 PM

With fire bans imminent this year I'm guessing if I want to cook at all, it will have to be on a stove with a shutoff valve. I prefer canister over white gas. I currently own a early titanium canister stove that is pretty small and light, but after a bit of research there is lighter, more efficient models out. I'm curious about what everyone is using. I don't like msr stoves, they are not well designed to me. I like the looks of this stove but have no experience with the brand. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007OJKI0M
Let me know what you think!
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: Stoves! - 02/03/14 01:51 PM

I like my vintage MSR stoves. If I want to shave weight, then I'll bring a MSR Micro Rocket or more preferred Snow Peak Giga power GS-100? canister stove. Or a very hot Coleman Exponent F1, more btu's than other stoves its size by a large margin. Get your coffee stuff ready before heating the water with that one.
100 now, here I thought I had cut a few out.
Duane
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/03/14 03:37 PM

Msr micro rocket is 2.6 ounces and the pocket rocket is 3. I'm trying to cut that in half. 1.5-1.7 oz max and a quick boil time. I know having my cake and eating it too.
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: Stoves! - 02/03/14 03:55 PM

Not much use out there from what I've read on your stove. More on the Fire Maple? and Soto stoves.
Duane
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/03/14 05:29 PM

I thought firemaple and olicamp are made by the same Chinese company?
Posted by: wildthing

Re: Stoves! - 02/03/14 05:35 PM

I suggest you check the real weight and boil time of the Olicamp Kinetic Ultra Titanium Stove. With 10,000 BTU, no way it boils as fast as the 16,000 BTU Coleman F1 Exponent (3+ minutes depending on elevation) which also simmers. Sure the F1 weighs an ounce more, but you might find it is worth that ounce in performance. I've been very happy, and works very well at elevation if you get the higher propane mix.
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/03/14 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By wildthing
I suggest you check the real weight and boil time of the Olicamp Kinetic Ultra Titanium Stove. With 10,000 BTU, no way it boils as fast as the 16,000 BTU Coleman F1 Exponent (3+ minutes depending on elevation) which also simmers. Sure the F1 weighs an ounce more, but you might find it is worth that ounce in performance. I've been very happy, and works very well at elevation if you get the higher propane mix.
. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0009VC7UG
That looks pretty good. I wish they could get the weight down,

This is what I currently use and weighs 3 oz
Posted by: wildthing

Re: Stoves! - 02/05/14 02:03 PM

Might be a few good reasons to switch up to a more efficient stove, but criteria may be broader than just wieght. Size and weight are not the real objectives here as there is so little difference between all of them you really should be looking at your preferances and how the performance of each matches that, not just weight:

1. Get better gas mileage, for example you can make the small cylinder last 4.5 days if you're careful
2. Simmers better, which means you can use less gas
3. With higher BTU, may boil more quickly and get you going faster
4. One last thing, the F1 is pretty steady with the pot supports and that reduces the spill factor, especially with the lower profile cannisters

Just some other factors to consier, your analysis may have different variables.
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/05/14 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By wildthing
Might be a few good reasons to switch up to a more efficient stove, but criteria may be broader than just wieght. Size and weight are not the real objectives here as there is so little difference between all of them you really should be looking at your preferances and how the performance of each matches that, not just weight:

1. Get better gas mileage, for example you can make the small cylinder last 4.5 days if you're careful
2. Simmers better, which means you can use less gas
3. With higher BTU, may boil more quickly and get you going faster
4. One last thing, the F1 is pretty steady with the pot supports and that reduces the spill factor, especially with the lower profile cannisters

Just some other factors to consier, your analysis may have different variables.


Thank you! Your points are very helpful, for $40 you can't really go wrong, I think I'll order a F1 and give it a try.

The whole weight thing has become a bit of an obsession and I'm down to shaving grams rather than ounces, this is why I nitpick it. But as you mentioned it could possibly be a mute point, if you can save 2 oz of fuel by more efficiently boil times. I guess it really comes down to the length of the trip.
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: Stoves! - 02/05/14 10:35 PM

Tyson, the F1 comes up on the bay for under $30. I was given mine as it had too much water, rain or dew on it over the previous owners time. I gave the spindle a little shot of oil and it turns smooth now. I also have the power boost model, over 23,000? some btu's. More than the burner on a full size stove I believe. Just got a single burner, Coleman Canadian 500 from the 50's, very nice shape, much larger than my Coleman 502. Both too big for mc's or bping.
Duane
PS: There is one on the bay now with the auction ending about 6PM tomorrow, starting bid about $22. I bought one for a friend for about that much a year ago.
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/05/14 11:08 PM

Originally Posted By hikerduane
Tyson, the F1 comes up on the bay for under $30. I was given mine as it had too much water, rain or dew on it over the previous owners time. I gave the spindle a little shot of oil and it turns smooth now. I also have the power boost model, over 23,000? some btu's. More than the burner on a full size stove I believe. Just got a single burner, Coleman Canadian 500 from the 50's, very nice shape, much larger than my Coleman 502. Both too big for mc's or bping.
Duane
PS: There is one on the bay now with the auction ending about 6PM tomorrow, starting bid about $22. I bought one for a friend for about that much a year ago.
Thanks! I'll head over to e-bay right now!
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/05/14 11:24 PM

Next thing you know I'll be as bad as you Duane, it starts with one stove..... Funny how years ago all my cooking was over fire, if I was above 10,000 it was cold meals. I'm such a wimp now , I need a good cup of tea in the morning and sometimes in the evening. And lazy because I got really tired of cleaning soot off the pot, and all my gear smelling of smoke.
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: Stoves! - 02/06/14 08:40 AM

Yep, I used to only cook over small fires back in the 70's, 80's. Paper bagged my small pot to keep the pack clean, which I cleaned up very good after fires were banned in Desolation Wilderness and use it in my kitchen still at home.
100 now.
Duane
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/06/14 10:31 AM

I'm the high bidder! Nobody else bid on this one...... Please thanks
Posted by: BrianLe

Re: Stoves! - 02/06/14 12:00 PM

Quote:
"With fire bans imminent this year I'm guessing if I want to cook at all, ..."

My experience is that a significant number of people who "just know" that they wouldn't like eating only cold meals are in fact fine with them if they give that approach a fair shot and learn from the experiences of others what things to pack & eat.

Maybe this is a good year/goad to simplify your backpacking life? No need to get or store fuel or decide how much to carry. No pot, windscreen, stove, or possibly other fiddly things (heat exchanger, pot scrubber, etc etc). No issues with washing dishes, either the chore or the environmental aspect of that. Less fiddling around, when you're ready to eat you just start eating. I like it, in any event. The variety can be harder to maintain, but for modest length trips of the type that I think that most people typically do, that also shouldn't be a problem.

I'm a fan now, anyway, after having been quite a doubter before I tried it.
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/06/14 12:20 PM

Originally Posted By BrianLe
Quote:
"With fire bans imminent this year I'm guessing if I want to cook at all, ..."

My experience is that a significant number of people who "just know" that they wouldn't like eating only cold meals are in fact fine with them if they give that approach a fair shot and learn from the experiences of others what things to pack & eat.

Maybe this is a good year/goad to simplify your backpacking life? No need to get or store fuel or decide how much to carry. No pot, windscreen, stove, or possibly other fiddly things (heat exchanger, pot scrubber, etc etc). No issues with washing dishes, either the chore or the environmental aspect of that. Less fiddling around, when you're ready to eat you just start eating. I like it, in any event. The variety can be harder to maintain, but for modest length trips of the type that I think that most people typically do, that also shouldn't be a problem.

I'm a fan now, anyway, after having been quite a doubter before I tried it.


Great point Brian. I never eat hot meals day hiking and many times that's for all the meals in a day. I don't think I would have much problem switching to cold meals only. I will have to try this year.
Posted by: bobito9

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 02:07 PM

you make an interesting case, Brian, it could be a much simpler approach. Although, to be honest, I enjoy the routine of cooking (I never use ready-to-eat freeze dried meals) and setting up my kitchen almost as much as the eating itself. And the joy of that morning cup of coffee! I'd have to pack no-doz! smile
Maybe we need a whole new thread just on how to make no-cook eating tolerable for an entire trip on the JMT, which is what I'm debating doing this summer.
Posted by: bamudd

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 03:43 PM

Ok so I'm kinda a stove noob. I mean, I've been using a canister stove for years, but I don't really actually know anything about the fine details.

I currently have a Primus Express (not the Ti model).

When I was a Boy Scout I used my Dad's Snow Peak stove. An early GigaPower, I think, but I'm not sure.

Both are under 4 oz (I think my current is 3.3), and both seem to cook pretty well. I honestly got the one I have because it was on Steepandcheap for a really good price right when I was looking to get my own since I started getting back into backpacking a few years ago.

How do you really compare stoves against each other? What are good models, what are bad models, and what's the difference?

Someone enlighten me!
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 04:30 PM

Most name brand stove are pretty good. Duane is our local stove expert, I'm sure he'll be along with some valuable info. It also depends on your use, winter camping in sub freezing temps calls for a inverted canister or for you to warm up your canister prior to use. Look at BTUs, pot supports, and flame distribution. A small flame distribution is good for narrow pots while the reverse is true for wide pots. A good valve so you can simmer is also nice. Another thing to think about is effiency, a efficient stove may be worth a bit of extra weight as long as you save that weight in fuel. Depending on where your hiking you could also consider alcohol stoves and solid fuel like esbit.
Posted by: TomD

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 05:44 PM

Bamudd, My first question to you is "why do you think you need a new one?" Second, what is your intended use?

There must be thousands of posts scattered across dozens of websites on stoves. They are one of the "big 3" of camping discussions, bags and shelters (tents, etc.) being the other two.

Stoves fall into several categories. i would first separate them by type of fuel-liquid (broken down further into types of liquid fuels), gas, and a few miscellaneous stoves that burn tablets or wood). A few stoves burn both liquid and gas.

Factors to consider:
1. use (general camping v. mountaineering, winter v. three season, solo or group cooking, for example);
2. weight;
3. design;
4. burn time;
4. cost.

Although we all would agree that some stoves are better than others because they are made better or designed better (sturdier pot stands, for one), after sorting out those factors, the rest often comes down to personal preference. I have a small selection of stoves and can point out the pros and cons of each one. I know there are better ones out there, but mine are long paid for and work reasonably well, so I see no point in buying any more, at least for now. smile
Posted by: bamudd

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 06:16 PM

I don't think I need a new one. I'm just curious. I like to know lots of things about things, and while I've done tons of research and arguing and thinking about bags and shelters, I've never really done much thinking about stoves.
Posted by: Rick_D

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By bamudd
I don't think I need a new one. I'm just curious. I like to know lots of things about things, and while I've done tons of research and arguing and thinking about bags and shelters, I've never really done much thinking about stoves.


What is this "need" of which you speak? Am unfamiliar with that particular term, especially in reference to just. one. more. stove.

Cheers,
Posted by: bamudd

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 06:21 PM

I guess what started me thinking about it was the problems my friend and I both had camping in 5 degree weather a few weeks ago. First time I've ever camped that cold, and neither my canister stove nor his alcohol stove worked particularly well.

Don't plan to go in that cold often, but I just got to thinking.
Posted by: bamudd

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 06:23 PM

Ok, Rick D, so you're a stove geek. In this context, btw, geek is not at all meant as an insult. Tell me about your babies. Help me understand why it's something I should think about for considerations other than weight (and I'm not weight-crazy enough to put money into lightening from a 3.3 oz stove and 4 oz canister) or extreme climate.
Posted by: billstephenson

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 08:04 PM

Quote:
My experience is that a significant number of people who "just know" that they wouldn't like eating only cold meals are in fact fine with them if they give that approach a fair shot and learn from the experiences of others what things to pack & eat.


I have to admit I'm on the doubter side of that line still.

I need hot coffee and a hot dinner. I can skip breakfast and munch on trail food all day while hiking but I can't think it'd be fun to go to bed on a cold meal. Most of my backpacking is done in the cooler months, so that has something to do with it, but I know you've done this in the cold too. That sounds tough.

That must be one of the leaps you have to be able to make to be a thru-hiker. After a week or two I'm afraid I'd be getting a bit wild eyed. Maybe not though. I don't eat a lot as it is, so I might do better than I'd imagine.

Posted by: OregonMouse

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 08:39 PM

Canister stoves don't work well below 20*F. When it gets that cold, the propane part of the mix boils off first and you're left with isobutane at or below the temp at which it becomes liquid.

Keep the canister warm (prewarm it in your armpit under your jacket while doing a vigorous keep warm dance--it will really wake you up!), use a windscreen most of the way around (do feel the canister frequently while you're using the windscreen so the canister doesn't overheat and blow up), put the canister on a piece of foam pad to insulate it from the ground. Actually, when it gets that cold you either need a white gas (liquid feed) stove or a remote canister stove like the MSR Windpro II or Kovea Spider that uses an upside-down canister and has a tube next the burner to vaporize the gas (which basically converts the canister to a liquid feed).

It's one thing going stoveless in warm weather; quite another to be doing without hot food and drinks in below-freezing weather!
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 09:11 PM

Check out HJ's blog, "Adventures in stoving", I finally met him a few weeks ago at Henry Coe SP in CA. He has twice the stoves I have, most of the canister stoves. We've exchanged stoves a few times over the last few years.
I've used my Pocket Rocket into the single digits a few times, need to dunk the canister in water a few times or into the pot of water you are heating. A good remote canister stove should work fine if you want to stick with expensive canisters. Wind Pro II, Omnifuel, the old MSR Rapidfires, but they have a stiff fuel line. I usually bring a white gas or kerosene stove in cold weather. The MSR Dragonfly white gas/kerosene)seems to have the best adjustment for simmering. Loud.
Select a stove for your intended needs as has been stated, shape and size of burner means a lot. A broader head like a MSR Super Fly or Coleman Exponent F1 Power Boost have wide heads, good for dispersed flame
If you have to go out in cold temps make some adjustments or get a different stove.
I'm not an expert, I just have a lot of stoves. Tyson is being nice. I go bping year round by the way.
Duane
Posted by: Rick_D

Re: Stoves! - 02/08/14 09:18 PM

Naw, geek is good, but I have to be a junior stove geek on any forum with UberStoveGeek Duane. Just sayin.'

I'm familiar with the Express burner. It's not great from the standpoint of cooking IMHO, because of the concentrated flame and being picky about providing an even low flame. If you're interested in cooking more than just boiling water you might look for a burner that spreads the flame. I won't make a specific recommendation, but there are a lot to choose among. Weightwise, you might shave off as much as an ounce or so, but I'd hold out for something you'll gain more than a weight benefit from.

FWIW, efficiency--e.g.,pints boiled per canister or grams used per pint boiled--doesn't seem to vary as much from burner design as it does from kitchen design, including a relatively wide pot and an effective windscreen. Canister-top stoves can be tricky to set up with a good windscreen.

Cheers,
Posted by: bamudd

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 01:30 AM

Most of my trail cooking is just boiling water, and (especially with the ETA pot) the Primus is very, very good at that. 1 liter to a full rolling boil in just under 2:30.

I absolutely would not buy a whole new stove just to save one ounce. If I saw a real benefit to it, sure, but an ounce is not worth $40+ to me.

I have contemplated making an alcohol stove from a red bull can for backup and simmering, though.
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By bamudd
Most of my trail cooking is just boiling water, and (especially with the ETA pot) the Primus is very, very good at that. 1 liter to a full rolling boil in just under 2:30.

I absolutely would not buy a whole new stove just to save one ounce. If I saw a real benefit to it, sure, but an ounce is not worth $40+ to me.

I have contemplated making an alcohol stove from a red bull can for backup and simmering, though.
Penny stoves/ alcohol stoves are not for simmering.
Posted by: bamudd

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 10:49 AM

Can you not make an enclosed one with fewer holes, for less heat?
Posted by: rockchucker22

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By bamudd
Can you not make an enclosed one with fewer holes, for less heat?
they don't quite work like that. It takes a certain amount of heat to vaporize the alcohol in order for the jets to work. Play around with it, they are cheap and easy to make. There are people making alcohol stoves with simmer rings that kind of allow you to simmer. I've made dozens of these stoves and love yo mess around with them, but for simmering a valved stove works much better.
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 11:03 AM

Ah but Mr. Chuckler, :), they make a few simmer rings for a few stoves now, but then a new system may be needed. Starlyte and modified Starlyte stoves I believe both, can use a simmer ring and the Trail Designs 12-10 stove can be used with a simmer ring, but would need a good wind screen or in the case of the 12-10, the Caldera Cone. Even Esbit type fuels can be throttled down to run an hour instead of 15 minutes, simmering well enough to bake, like a muffin. Check out Flat Cat Stoves. I was given a simmer ring (carbon felt) for the two second quality Starlyte stoves I got at Henry Coe SP a few weeks ago on a large group trip.
Duane
Posted by: DTape

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 11:08 AM

Just drop the Starlyte into a FF cat food can and it will instantly be in simmer mode.
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 11:23 AM

Zelph's.
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/starlyte-stove.php
Jon at Flat Cat Gear.
For baking with Esbit, yu'll need two pots.
http://flatcatgear.com/
Rand and Lee at Trail Designs.
http://www.traildesigns.com/
I met Jon and Lee at the gathering at Henry Coe SP a few weeks ago. Jon was very popular with his non-stop cooking. Brownies, a cheeseburger even.
Duane
Posted by: BrianLe

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 01:26 PM

Apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but if you want to really geek out on stoves, zenstoves.net is the place to go.
Posted by: BrianLe

Re: Stoves! - 02/09/14 01:28 PM

Quote:
"That must be one of the leaps you have to be able to make to be a thru-hiker. After a week or two I'm afraid I'd be getting a bit wild eyed. Maybe not though. I don't eat a lot as it is, so I might do better than I'd imagine."

Most thru-hikers do bring a stove, most typically some sort of alcohol stove.

OTOH, you might indeed do better than you would imagine without one. With apologies for the bad pun, what it "boils down to" is whatever feels right for you for a particular trip.