free gear - is it worth it?

Hi All,
This is sort of a sequel to Jasons free gear post. BTW I love his survivor stud videos and have a the photo of him in my collection, posing as a dead man in the desert with his Bowie knife still in his hand. Thanks Jason

Anyway I watched with some interest as Jason showed us many free camping devices. I have to question the theory here.

When I was a boy scout, Be Prepared meant do not take important pieces of gear that may break and leave you without one - like a plastic fork or a styrofoam cup. If you don't feel that you need a cup or spoon, don't take them, but if you take them because you feel that you need them, then take something rugged enough to last through the trip and maybe the next. A thin metal spoon of fork weigh very little, as does an unbreakable one cup plastic top from a thermos bottle.

That said - I sometimes like to go on "survival" trips or "native" trips where I take very minimal gear, but I do it for fun, challenge, to do something different, and I have the skills to do without most of my gear anyway - gear just makes it more comfortable and fun.

I am a bit unsettled that newbie campers watch your clever video and think "Hey I don't need no stinking reliable gear - Jason said so." What is the purpose of this concept?

Do people actually take free "Disposable" products camping to save weight? I kinda like the idea of keeping my pack packed with gear that I expect to be there and to function throughout the length of my trip.

Maybe I don't actually need a fork or a spoon, but they weigh so little, why eat with my hands and dribble down my jacket?

Jim YMMV

ps Now salt and pepper packets and cream from fast food places does make sense since they are consumable anyway.

Jim, I had exactly the same issues with that particular Jason video. I can just see that Styrofoam cup splitting open the first day (I've had the things split open with the original hot coffee in them!), and the plastic spoon breaking on the second day. There's also the issue that metal cans are lined with a type of plastic containing bisphenol-A, so at least some of us think they're not too safe as cooking pots.

I'm also a bit concerned about the idea of "stocking up" at the fast food place. The store puts out those items for customers to use on their burgers, not for them to take a bunch home. I guess it depends on one's outlook whether or not you want to consider this stealing, but for sure, if quite a few people regularly indulge in this sort of activity, it forces the store to raise prices!

I've found Jason's other videos to be quite useful, amusing or both, and have recommended them to others, but this particular one left me with a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

I do want to commend Jason for his other videos, though!

Hey guys,
Thanks for all of your comments. Geez, what the heck are you guys doing with your sporks? Using them as tent stakes?

Most UL gear is less durable than the heavyweight stuff at REI and this is a sacrifice UL backpackers accept in order to lighten up. Sure, a titanium spork is light, but small things add up. The mug, the spork, the cook pot, the pack cover, etc. Ounces soon turn into pounds! So, if you want to truly lighten up, you have to be a little more careful with your gear. I've used a styrofoam cup a LOT and have never stepped on one, split one from heat, etc. I just stow it in my cookpot and it's protected.

As for "stealing" salt packs and condiments, I'm not advocating people clean out McDonald's every time they go and build an inventory at home that is going to cause them to raise prices. I just take an extra few--just enough for my next trip when I think about it. If you claim this is stealing, then you're stealing every time you use a McDonald's or gas station bathroom without buying anything. You're using their water, soap, paper towels, toilet paper, electricity, etc.

Anyway, the video was merely a suggestion of how to get some free stuff if you wanted and are not morally opposed to the idea. I'm not advocating everyone do this all the time; and certainly if you're ethically opposed to it, then don't do it. Don't take this too literally or to the extreme guys: I was just putting the idea out there for those who might find it useful.

P.S. If you check out my blog, you'll see a new video on the Gossamer Gear Light Trek 4 trekking poles.

Jason

I found your video very entertaining, but like I said - I didn't really understand the message. If I hear you correctly, you are saying that if you are really careful, that you can use very fragile gear for a while and that its worth it to save weight. You also stated that ounces add up to pounds, but even my Ti cup with its insulating jacket and both Ti spoon and fork, weigh 2.85 oz.

My point is that interms of reliability and service my 2.85 oz will outlast your .85 ounces by 50 times. I did forget my coffee cup on a 4 day trip and I had to drink out of a used black bean soup cup. It was disgusting, worth going home over.

However I have to question a camping method that relies on fragile consumeable camping gear for its existence. Although I know it is in vouge for many and may be just fine for a warm summer trip in the midwest.

My long term gripe about the UL movemenmt is that it relies on unreliable gear. Clothes that would shred in a lot of camping environments and inadequate protection from weather. Many peops think sandals, tevas and old tennis shoes are appropriate on the trail, until they break an ankle I guess.

Jim YMMV

Jim

P.S. OK so I weighed my lexan spoon at .3 oz. I pulled down a 12 ounce plastic cup from the cupboard and it weighs 2 oz. So for 2.6 oz I get a regular kitchen cup and an indestructable fork AND spoon. Total value around $5 retail. I can stand on the cup.

Interestingly it weighs less than my titanium setup which cost around $45.

Hey Jim,
I have never said that every single idea I've come up with works in every situation, in every condition, in every location. But for some reason, people take it that way. People email me from Alaska saying that the tea light stove doesn't work because it was 15 below, windy and snowing. OF COURSE NOT! And in those conditions, I would take a white gas stove. Why does everyone assume that just because I put forth an idea that I think it's the be all, end all for every situation and that's the thing I always use? I never take the same gear all the time--I adapt it to different situations. Why can't people get it that we're all just sharing ideas here, things are NOT set in stone, and that all of us are going through a constant evolution in what we carry? Take it or leave it. But just don't assume that simply because I mention an idea in a video that that's my typical MO. I'm not limited to that. I put it out there for others who might benefit from it.

Well, I now use a coffee cup with lid (after purchase from previous coffee) to use in camp for my hot drinks like tea and coffee, even soup. I used to use a plastic heavy coffee mug for the same purpose. I still have my Ti bowl for cooking. When the cup breaks, I just buy more coffee. The McD cups are pretty sturdy. And yes, it does last throughout my trips. Why be so judgemental if you haven't tried something? Or your is your opinion always the right way to do things?

Leadfoot,
Yes, those McDonald's cups are awesome! They're a little bigger than the office styrofoam cups and seem to have some kind of coating on the outside that makes them more durable. I forgot to mention that in the video. Thanks for bringing that up!

Jim,
P.S. What does "YMMV" mean?

I have been taking styro/paper coffee cups on day hikes - I test stoves and other gear on long day hikes. A hot cup of tea can be bracing when it's cold out. Backpacking I still put an insulated mug on a biner on the back of the pack.

I'm more careful with my gear than other people. Generally it appears people use gear, toss it around, drop it, and get irritated when something breaks or rolls away. For people like that maybe they're better off with bomber packs and stainless steel.

I don't like disposable items and try to avoid buying them. I'd never use a foam cup for that reason and I try to remember to bring my own travel mug to coffee shops. I'm also the type who would destroy a foam a cup in the bush.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary.

I agree with Jason here. If I was climbing Everest, or even going out for more than say 3 days, then my gear choices would be different to an overnighter. A plastic spoon and a disposable cup would be perfect for an overnighter. Maybe even two nights, if you are not careful with your gear. If the spoon breaks, so what, you can survive for a night or two. If you don't like the styrofoam cup, then replace it with one of those insulated paper ones. If most beginners start out with overnighters, then why would it be bad to suggest a cheap, light alternative so they can just get out and try it?

Right. Perhaps to be more globally inclusive we can also start using YKMV--your kilometrage may very.

You're welcome

Your mileage may vary.

“Many peops think sandals, tevas… are appropriate on the trail, until they break an ankle I guess…”

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Remember, the opposite can be said, ‘it is unhealthily irresponsible to promote boots to beginning backpackers.’

And back to subject, I like taking Styrofoam cups on 2 or 3 day trips. And NO I don’t stand on them.
-Barry

Heh. Well, I fall somewhere in the middle. I've been known to take a fast food spoon, but normally take a 50 cent lexan jobby that admittely is a bit more durable, but mainly because it has a longer handle to go into a food bag

I guess where I fall it that I will take that "lightweight"
gear when I have an option to do without. Realisticly, I can
do without a spoon. I can just as easily shovel the freezer bag into my face with two sticks used chopstick style, or by upending the bag. It might not be *pretty* or convenient, but having my cheap spoon break won't ruin my trip and I won't starve.

I put an alky stove in the same category for a different reason. While they are amazingly durable, even if I smoosh it, it's really hard to make it where you can't bend it back and burn alky in it. It might not do it as well but it'll do.

I *might* be tempted to put the styrofoam cup in the same category, as *optional* gear. because I can live with just my pot.

On the other hand, I do draw the line at a canpot. I've tried 'em, I wreck them too easy, and then I really am up the creek without a paddle. If I had a durable fireproof cup to
boil in perhaps then I wouldn't be, but then I'm carrying
a heavy cup so as to carry a light pot.. hmm. Me I just stick to a small but durable Anti Gravity Gear 3 cup pot. My cup is a thin little plastic thing and that's all I take. Still, I
know some people love their canpots. just not for me.

Other places when I take less durable gear I take a backup.
I love platypus bags, they're really light, but they get holes
in 'em. So I always have two with me, and on at least three
occasions I have returned with only one that doesn't leak. (I can get by with a leaky platty, I just don't like to
Two platys still weighs a lot less than one nalgene, and the ability to haul up 5 litres of water for camp is really nice, even if I'm only carrying a litre while walking.

I think you just flawlessly demonstrated a big part of what Jason’s video is also about by reaching into your cupboard and finding a couple of trail worthy items. Jason’s lineup of free gear promotes out-of-the-box thinking. You don't have to go out and spend $12 on the latest and greatest titanium spork (some may even call that ridiculous), when there are so many other options of equivalent weight that would work just as well. On the other hand, I do love my titanium spork !


Yup, I have to agree. I've taken them on trips and had some very close calls. No matter how well I try to protect the canpot, it would return with indents and crushed sections after a trip. I'd just end up making new ones. The miniscule weight makes them very tempting, but in the long run, it's just not worth it (for me anyway).

Can't you boil water in a styrofoam cup? Isn't that one of those physics things as long as there is water inside, it won't burn?

Mmmmmm.... the taste of instant cancer!

Thanks for all your feedback everyone! I think everyone has different tastes, likes, dislikes, etc. and all I was trying to do was put some ideas out there for those whose worldview and hiking style might jive with them. As with all of my videos, comments, suggestions, etc. I'm fine with people taking it or leavng it and enjoy the discussion! After all, we're all just brainstorming and sharing ideas to help each other out, right?

Jason

I think you can be less defensive now. I said I enjoyed your video but questioned the message. People seem to be all excited about that. While I said that I like my Titanium gear that hasn't needed to be replaced for ten years and it is my personal first choice, I pointed out that in my cupboard there was lighter cheaper gear that was also extremely durable. What I questioned was taking less than durable gear when free durable gear is at hand. I don't get it. Thats not a negative ok?
Jim

lead foot

quote"
Why be so judgemental if you haven't tried something? Or your is your opinion always the right way to do things?"
_________________________________________________________

I Think you should perhaps reread what I said. I do question taking breakable gear camping when free durable gear is avaiable in your kitchen. I prefer to carry my indestructable titanium, but I could care less what you carry. I merely asked a question about the concept. I'm sorry that you find that so threatening. not really... but it sounded like a nice thing to say.

Jim

Hey Jim,
Now, I think I'm confused. What is the "free" more durable gear you're talking about? Are you talking about the cup, spork, etc.? Sorry, I think I've lost you.

No jim, I didn't feel threatened by your comment. As we all know, the written word can become misunderstood as to the tone and true meaning. When your comment about asking if people carry disposable items and then this , I read it in the manner you hadn't intended.

The styrofoam cup works pretty well for me, and it isn't one of those white things we use at a picnic. I don't care for disposable spoons, though. Even those Light-My-Fire sporks are useless...both break easily. And if you read what I said earlier, I use titanium bowls as well. The coffee cup is just a luxury item. I know you could care less what I carry. I'm reading your comment light-heartedly, right?

If I buy a Tim Horton's coffee on the way to the trail head I bring the used cup with me, and see how long it lasts before I use it for tinder, but I still have my regular mug. I guess I am saying I don't go out of my way to bring that stuff. I like my regular gear to be durable enough to last a month even if I'm only out for a weekend, but once I leave home I am also in 'foraging and scavenging mode', so anything I come across might get grabbed and re-used in some way or another. Same with junk I find in the woods or on beaches, and natural materials also. It's fun. Found some sort of 'bait bag' made out of fishing net and a piece of rubber tire and I used that for keeping small items and garbage in for that trip. Found a balloon washed up on Cradle Brook Beach one January. with a face on it, from some store promotion miles away, so it became my 'Spalding' hiking buddy for that trip.

I do the same in dollar stores and department stores, but I have gotten alot more fussy when it comes to actually buying stuff. I'm trying to get away from plastic as much as possible also, unless its really durable, and I don't already have one. Some free gear is definitely worth it though, like a little container fashioned out of birch bark, and I still have the wedding bottle I got for mixing aqua-mira, which actually came from a wedding I was at. Natural materials are best though, but if something is on its way to a landfill that's fair game also. If you are actually adding to the landfill, that's no good. Even if what you are buying is really durable you should probably think twice if you already have something. The best things in life are free, and some of the best free stuff is the stuff you have already.

minimus.biz makes it easier to stock up without feeling like a thief - or running the risk of having taco sauce bust in your purse and anoint your wallet. (My mom can be so annoying, swiping packets to take home because she liked their sauce. Now that you can buy it in stores she still swipes!)

I confess to not being so saintly and proper. I re-use disposable cups until they die, usually quick when there's a kid running around the camp with his cup of cocoa in hand. Less quick when used and rinsed by adults. And as I said - I don't use them backpacking. I don't see why you'd have a problem with recycling, but as jim says, YMMV.

I have three travel mugs and they gather together at work in a corner until I remember to take them home. Sometimes having a few extra stand ins is handy.

Personally, I can't aford nice new gear and found that the trade off's when using disposables are unacceptable. So I first look around the house for things that I can take and then think of the weight. After going "lightweight",by making much of my own gear, I'm much happier with the load that is on my back. I also find it fun to make gear, test it and if it doesn't work, well I've learned something anyway. I would love to own a new Clark hammock setup but my DIY hammock works fine. My popcan stove and heine pot have served me well. I've learned so much from this site and from most of those that post on this site. I'm certainly no expert and have respect for those that are experts here. Namely Jim S. Jason K. Phat and on and on. On another note,FYI, I was walking with a group the other day and met some people that get to bpack way more than me in places I dream of being able to go someday. The converstation migrated to sites like this. Some feel that there is too much picky disagreements and banter on sites like this. I'm guilty of it myself and have regreted it to the point of making ammends thru a P.M. Everyone should take all this info with a grain of salt. It's easy to hammer someone that you've never met. But I think once you met them you would probably find a lot in common. My point, Let's play nice in the sandbox.

Peace Out.

I thoroughly enjoyed Jason's "free gear" video. As always, he presented some great ideas in saving weight and money. This may not be for everyone, nor would these ideas be utilized each and every time a person goes backpacking. To me, that's the beauty behind going UL. You don't always use the same kit. You make it fit the situations that you expect to encounter on the trail at that specific time and place. For instance, if its summer and no rain chances, you leave the raingear at home. You don't have to go prepared for every possible situation. What UL hikers learn is that you can do more with less and use the best piece of equipment that you can take on any backpacking trip, YOUR BRAIN.
As far as UL equipment being less durable, I take exception with this notion. Sure, the material that UL equipment is made of is lighter and won't stand up to excessive abuse, but it will stand up to NORMAL wear and tear quite well if you treat it with normal care. Again, you take the equipment necessary for the situation at hand.
Oz

Salt - lots of Salt.

Thank you all for maintaining the Peace.

I was wondering this....

I see a lot of people with tea light stoves and stuff like Jason was talking about. I have homeless friends who live in tents near here all year round, and they heat their tents with candles and heat water on them as well. They like to set up a dome tent then put a refective layer and a couple of woll blankets over it, the add the rain cover. They say they burn candles all night long. They drink coffee out of what ever cup I bring them, but they use metal spoons so they won't melt in the fire.

There are olde timer get togethers, and all kinds of ways of camping and I think we should each Camp Our Own Camp COOC. I have gone native, camped with just a fork and a sleeping bag, camped with nothing, nothing but a knife and 2 matches, etc. I consider these to be special fun camping challenges.

What I was wondering in the original post is - Is there a New Thing in the UL community to camp with "found" gear? I meant for it to be a harmless question.

Jim YMMV (your mileage may vary)

Well, I'm hurt. Just kidding! Hopefully no one has taken offense to any of the postings here.

In regard to the question, I don't think there's a new desire in the UL community to camp with "found" gear; I think it's an old one. In attempt to be more innovative, you must look at all that surrounds you (including "found" gear) in a different light. Then you post your ideas to great forums such as this one, and it just might snowball from there. Also, perhaps one persons "found" gear is entirely new to another - right?

Am I any closer?

Erik

Did you read the story in Back Packer a few years ago about two guys who hiked the Lost Coast? Maybe wrong name - along Vancouver island where all the ships used to go down going into Puget Sound. I think they took matches sleeping bags and tarps and found everything else including pots and pans and food? Maybe they took food, but the point is - they did without until they found something useful beach combing.

As one who has spent considerable time hitch hiking around the world, not completely around. I have learned that within 100 yards of any place along a road you will find any number of useful items including wire, bottles, cans, and just a whole bunch of unexpected useful items like nails, dead cats, and steel street sweeper bristles - the locksmiths favorite. Often a digital watch, calculater, pen, ski pole, who knows. Kind of a scavenger hunt camping trip along civilised byways - like my homeless friends.

I guess my style is more to take a few pieces of indestructable gear and expect them them to be there and work when I need them, but then thats just my $.02.

Climbers are always playing with doing something new. Like being the first one to climb everest in a day solo naked while shunning all fixed ropes. I could see someone claiming a prize like - the first one to hike the AT with no gear at all and never took a bath!

How bout a new idea then - the "SIX" things camping list.

Sleeping bag, pack, pan, matches, ground cloth, bisquick.

You can add anything actually found along the road or given to you on the way to the trailhead. I suggest locating a water bottle early on and filling it. You might start the search for food early on. Perhaps some road kill wrapped in a bisquick dough and baked over low coals? Pygmys like to collect tadpoles and slugs and steam them in a bannana leaf!
Jim
P.S> Actually isn't a lot of this about the concept of Do It Yourself camping? Made it or found it somehow perhaps being a connection to deeper Native American ideas?

Isn't the dead cats a Korean or Chinese thing?:)

Yes but, did the Native Americans have bisquick?
Just think what they could have created!

You're right about finding 'road treasures'. Thru my biking, I have come across all sorts of things. Found a pair of jeans once that were my size! I had those jeans for years.

It reminds me of wilderness survival or bushcraft ideas.

Jim, I remember that story also, wherever it was that I read it.

Really cool movie called "The Snow Walker".

This bush pilot and inuit woman crash and have to walk out because they weren't on their planned route. He is dependant entirely on western stuff. She keeps getting everything from the land. Really cool. There is this scene where they discover a crashed plane and he goes a little nuts thinking they need and could use alot of the stuff, most of which would be much use unless they needed to change a tire. She makes him bury it all with the dead pilot, so he will have his tools in the next life. Way cool movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNHLc79HF6o


Walk well, my brother.

Jim, Interesting about the homeless. I've thought about it myself. I haven't experimented with candles much but I guess as long as there is some ventilation for air you should be o.k. I think there is gonna be more of this in the future and people need to get over the Disneyland mentality. Don't get me wrong. I liked disneyland when I was able to take the family on vacation. But now a vacation would be out of the question. As far as found gear, the survivorman show, (when I had cable), would utilize whatever he had on hand. And that's exactly what the homeless learn to do pretty quickly or not survive. So, even though I like my few pieces of highly engineered gear. I'm happy with DIY.

What's the "Disneyland Mentality"?

Yikes guys! There are so many things going on in this thread that I'm getting sensory overload and don't even know what to respond to! Lots of great comments, ideas, and opinions.

Jim, I think your idea of "found gear" might be more appealing to the majority of people. Someone mentioned buying a cup of coffee on the way to the trailhead and using that in camp and I like that idea--clearly not stealing and also recycling (or at least re-using). Using stuff from home that you already have is good too. There are many resources you can draw upon to get free or nearly free gear if you're not comfortable with the idea of sneaking into a Starbucks to grab a few sugar packets.

OK, Jason, forget my post above. I really enjoy your videos and have recommended them to others. I started using "free" stuff from home, such as margarine tubs for cups and bowls, back in the 1980s. And of course there are all those "free" bottles (although in Oregon it means foregoing the 5 cent deposit) that can be used as water bottles.

I have a question about your tea light stove ("Klasslite"). How tall is the hardware cloth pot support? I am really tempted to switch to an alcohol stove for shorter trips. I did a comparison--for 8-10 day trips, a canister stove plus fuel is lighter, but for anything less, alcohol is lighter. The "Klasslite" certainly looks a lot easier to make than such stoves as the Super Cat (I still have two cans of cat food in my pantry, but no cat-=my dog is allergic to most kinds of dog food, so I don't want to risk giving him cat food). Anyway, if you could give me an idea of how tall the pot support should be, I'll try it out. Thank you!

It's 2". But honestly, a lot of people have complained that the tea light runs out of fuel before reaching a boil so you might want to reconsider. It's good for less than 2 cups of water but in some conditions, you'll probably want something with a little more capacity if you're planning on boiling more than 2 cups of water. Wedding tins work well. A friend of mine just uses the same cat food can that you would use for the Supercat as an open burner and he's happy with it.

I usually boil 1 to 1 1/4 cups water. I'll experiment! Thanks, Jason.

Unreal expectations. eg. Gortex, Hummer, people that are misinformed but believe what they are told and put their opinion on you as fact. Disney land is not bad in itself. Just look at the smiles on the childrens faces.

Don't always believe what your mind can conceive.

Jason, I have experimented with several different types of alcy stoves and have found that the open type burn about as good as the popcan types. I don't have hard data to back up my experimental wasting of fuel. What is your opinion on this?

Hi Chaz,
Well, you've just opened Pandora's box. There are a lot of variables to consider. But, to generalize, I have found that open burners can be quite efficient--they just take forever to boil. If you're patient and don't care about speed, they're great because they're so simple to make. Stoves like the Pepsi stove that are pressurized tend to be faster. Everyone seems to have their own opinion. Some like their stoves to burn hot & fast, others are willing to sacrifice boil times for the sake of efficiency. Today, there are so many alcohol stove designs out there that I'm sure there's one to fill almost every niche. Which one is your favorite?

I slipped an additional tealite over the top of another, sealed the edge with silicon and then cut a hole in the top. This gives me an oz of fuel in a very light burner. But for some reason the tea lite set up seems too fragile for me.

I found a fluted tin at Bed bath and Beyond that holds an oz of fuel and, though not as light as a tealite, doesn't weight much. Best thing was the price...29 cents!

I have been happy with the popcan stove but I will try an open style and see what the diff. is for myself. I'm usually not in a hurry but am afraid that the open one will burn out before I get a boil. that is of course using the same amount of fuel 1oz. thanks...