down vs. synthetic sleeping bag

I'm looking at upgrading my sleeping bag, and have to admit that I've never really used a down bag (aside from an OLD army surplus bag when I was in Scouts and din't really know what I was sleeping in). I pack a Slumberjack 30 degree synthetic presently.

My main concern is in regards to condensation. Understanding that the quality of bag and (presumably) amount of fill plays a role, about how much condensation can a down bag take before it starts to lose insulating ability? I spend most of my time hiking in an area famous for its morning dew, and would rather not freeze my butt off in the shoulder seasons (I'm not really a winter kind of guy anyway). Anybody have some knowledge to drop concerning this, or with some specs that would suit me well, before I let some salesperson talk me into a ridiculously expensive bag that I might not really need? Any thoughts appreciated.

Ben

G, there are a ton of well discussed threads on this in just the past six months. Try the search feature.

ta ta for now, folkalist

Unless you're gonna sit out and let the dew form on top of you, I don't think you need to be too concerned. The only time I've had serious condensation problems in a down bag is in really cold winter weather. if you're not a winter guy, and are only out in the shoulder season. I think you should be just fine. Don't get the bag wet, of course.

Now otoh, about ridiculously expensive, good down bags are, and if you want a light one that's good, expect to pay a decent chunk of ching for it. you get what you pay for.

I'm assuming, from your "gorge medic" name and Kentucky location, that you'll be using this bag a lot in the Red River Gorge. For many years, this was my primary hiking destination, so I've spent a great deal of time there, March through November, using down bags, and never had a problem. I've used them to sleep under the stars, under tarps, in tents (with and without the rainfly), and in bivy sacks (with and without a tarp overhead) and never had any condensation that did more than dampen the outer shell of the bag - usually around the foot area - and it completely dried between the time I crawled out and the time I finished breakfast and was ready to pack it. I've experienced that famous morning dew, but I've never had any serious problems with it wetting out a bag - however, when I know that the dew will likely be heavy, I usually rig a roof. That seems to keep the dew well away from the bag.

The bags I've used are a Western Mountaineering Mitylite (warmer temps) and Megalite (cooler temps.) They have very light nylon shells that are quite water-repellent, but they are not advertised as waterproof or waterproof-breathable.

I'm not familiar with your climate, but I used down bags in the Pacific Northwest for many years with few problems--basically only soaking them when my shelter failed in heavy rain.

Minor condensation can generally be dried out with daily airing of the bag. If you're not sleeping out in the open, I suspect you won't have a problem at all. If you sleep under the stars, consider taking a bivy of some sort.

Down's benefits greatly compensate for its shortcomings in all but a fairly narrow set of conditions (where you're out for extended periods in conditions that don't allow you to dry out your bag). Wait until you see how small and light they are in your pack!

Extended trip in winter without a VBL would probably cause trouble for a down sleeping bag. And VBLs may present their own problems for many people.

In winter, it's only after you stuff and mix and squish all that down and water together in the morning that the bag gets killed.

Almost all of my winter camping is only for one-night stands. When I was an obsessive skier, I mostly used a monster synthetic, but in recent years I take my chances exclusively with the down.

The only time I have had significant wetting problems was sleeping in a igloo that wasn't properly vented and it dripped all night long on me. I've also had frost on the bag in an igloo when using a bivy bag. That wasn't a problem for two nights but long term could have been. As long as you have decent ventilation in your shelter, you shouldn't have a problem. I've never had condensation or wetting problems except in winter and Minnesota can be a rather humid place.

They claim that with the Igloo, it's all in shaping the ceiling.

Once tried to sleep in a snow cave and it was very warm, but stank due to high occupancy rate.

I retired to a very cold tent that was more bearable.

I normally use very breathable bivvy sack with the down and with mattress inside. Appreciated most in snow, when groundsheet is lacking

My VBL experience is only around seven nights, some in merely cool weather in summer bag........and though "problems" were minimal and advantages clear, my most visceral judgement was to shun VBLs (and to some extent, winter camping)......

I own and use both synthetic and down bags, but, for almost all my uses, year-around here in BC, Yukon, NWT, I MUCH prefer a good down bag. I have owned and used several and tried quite a number more, while I now use Integral Designs Primaloft combo as my working and hunting bag(s).

For what you require, I would suggest either one of the WM Liteflight bags, mine is an Alpine Super and it is a superb bag, or, a Valandre Mirage. These two makers offer the finest ultralight bags I have used and Marmot makes some good ones, as well. Simply rig your tarp well and you will have no problems.

Winter is almost here. With that in mind and the fact that you have a bag to get you through - you might want to wait for the sales that come in the months after Xmas. Could be a chance to get what you need at a better price. Last years Marmot sale was fantastic.
Now, about the condensation - I have only had condensation problems in the footend when in a bivy, under a tarp in cold winter conditions. It moistened the footend, but did not stop my trip. I have never worried about the issue. I would venture to guess that down outsells synthetic by a huge margin, exclusive of car campers and infrequent hikers. I considered a sythetic bag for a 200 miler last spring, but decided against it and am glad that I did. A down quilt did the job just fine and since I already had it I not only saved weight, but money as well.

There is the issue of how much condensation can a down bag take before loss of some of the warmth factor.

There is the issue of how much condensation can you avoid by your camping technique and equipment and the variables of exterior/interior humidity and temperature.

Sleeping "too hot" in a cool or cold humid environment is a way to get condensation to form. A bag zipped up completely making you almost hot will make this situation more likely. Appropriate ventilation of the bag and sleeper is maximized by appropriate use of the full length zippers.

A synthetic bag poorly managed for condensation will keep you warmer, or for most practical purposes, a synthetic bag is good for the inexperienced outdoors person.

If you really want to know how much condensation a down sleeping bag can take without loss of warmth, the answer is "42". Reference "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

How much condensation do you make while camping/sleeping?

All my other stuff is very cheap, so my next bag will be down likely. I still haven't figured out what size for the type of winter hiking and skiing and camping I do. I only go 2-5 days, but I would like to have something for longer trips, if only in theory. I would like to try sleeping out in the backyard the entire month of January just to see how much weight the bag gains over time.

I think I might have asked this before, years ago...
What rating bag would you use for these conditions, for a 9 day 8 night trip?
+-0°C: 1 night
- 5°C: 1 night
-10°C: 2 nights
-15°C: 2 nights
-20°C: 1 night
-25°C: 50% chance 1 night
-30°C: 10% chance 1 night

Rest of kit for Northeastern Coastal Woodlands
8 pounds: clothes... wool, fleece, light skin layers, light wind layers
2 pounds: long wool underwear as emergency backup.
2 pounds: mukluks and felt liners in addition to above
3 pounds: 72"x28" blue foam pad, CF Gortex Bivy, Sylnylon Rain Poncho/Tarp
3 pounds: Kelly Kettle and all the other usual stuff, hatchet maybe
2 pounds: backpack
2 pounds: average water carried
16 pounds: food starting out
=================
40 pounds total skin out + sleeping bag 2.5 pounds???
or less clothes and a bigger bag?


I know that's alot of clothes, but I lean heavily on my clothes and I can wear them until dry or dry them out with fire when needed. I'm wondering with the wool long underwear for the coldest nights and all the other stuff, and being in woodlands where you can find shelter and make a fire easier than on exposed ridges, but it can still get very cold for 2-3 days, if a 2.5 pound -10°C rated down bag might be a good enough fit, and I might get better use out of it the rest of the Spring and Fall when packing less clothing and food.

My usual conditions would run about the same, overall and my choices for best bag(s) in these conditions are quite simple. I am a guy with very large chest, shoulders, huge neck and I am a restless sleeper, so, my bags tend to the larger volumned models; you may find different models better for your physique.

1. Valandre Shocking Blue, the best sleeping bag I have ever owned, used or seen and this is what I recommend you get.

2. Integral Designs XPD1-Rockies, a very fine bag, available with/without a wpb Endurance shell, with a 900 fill option, overfill option and in various sizes/volumns. Made in Calgary and as fine a serious bag as anyone could ever want, IMHO.

3. WM Kodiak, the "best" of the relatively big volumn makers and a super value at about $470.00 USD for the regular MF model, which is what I now would choose. WM needs no further recommendation and they ARE as good as everyone says they are.

Might as well get the good stuff, it pays off in the longterm.

I posted this elsewhere and I don't want folks to think i'm promoting a website, just lookin out for fellow hikers to save a few bucks.


www.mammothgear.com has Western Mountaineering bags for 20% off. I guess they are dumping this years bags to make room for the new. That was an 80.00 savings on the Versalite I ordered.

I'm not sure you will ever find them on sale cheaper, but I could be wrong.

I have had the Marmot pinnacle 15'C for a year now and I love it. It is a little heavyer thant the helium but it is definately warmer. I choose warmer over +8oz for a good night sleep in the white mountains in December. And it will save you $70