Starting Primaloft Quilt!! Tips??

Good day all,

I was looking to get the wife and I new bags and the price is just silly and the weight to price ratio recockulous! My plan is to make a wide ultra lightweight quilt. I will use it to cover my wife & I in VW van camping and for my Mt. Rainier and other summit trips this year.

I will share a small tent with a partner and to lighten our weights we will use my quilt for our sleeping (Ed Viesturs style) with some fat insulated pads underneath. This will shave valuable pounds and volume.

I bought a jacket from REI called the Spruce Run http://www.rei.com/product/755084 . It is a Quantam Pertex lined Primaloft convertable jacket. It is my new favorite piece. It is warmer then my down jacket at half the size and hundredth the weight. The material on the jacket is so nice my wife and her friends can't stop rubbing me.(I swear thats not the only reason I like it.) Seriously, they won't stop. They goto my closet to look for it when they come over. That said I want to make this quilt to resemble my jacket as close as possible. I will be using for my reference "Glenn Hecko, 12/99 LIGHTWEIGHT BACKPACKING QUILT http://www.backpacking.net/makegear/make-quilt/index.html "
Being 9 years later I would have hoped for some better space age materials since then but all that has happened is the same stuff got cheaper.

I bought this material from them for $2.95 a yrd. It was bought from the Eddie Bauer Repair shop. They don't know exactly what the material is but it had a great DWR and was lighter & softer then Supplex. Super Breathable! As light as the 1.3 ripstop but softer and with the DWR. I want to say it's a wee heavier then my jacket and not as supple.

Anyway I got 9 continuous yards of 60" Mystery Fabric for 2.99yrd. The heavier supplex was $9.99. I almost got this killer stuff called Silkara. It was very nice and might be a Bivy or spring sack choice.

I then got 4.5 yards of Primaloft One 3 oz. $11.95/yd. I plan on using two layers to make it 10°-20° f. Using the Primaloft One scale, I found it to be good to 10° at 6 ounces of loft. The Sport needs 8 ounces.

I'm also thinking of using the mystery fabric as an under sheet as well. Something to separate us from the pad underneath. I was looking at doing something like silk but the wife thinks the fold over 3 times would make it very wind and weather strong for instant bivys (she worries). By folding it over twice it makes a pita type quilt that would have one side with two layers of 60mph DWR that could be a strong weather face on Everest or to sleep inside.


The more I think about and photoshop her idea, the more I like it. We also plan on making head wraps like Jack r better but ours will look better!

I plan on putting shock cord & u clips through one end of the quilt to make a foot box for solo or mountaineering use.

Using a Z46 Nylon thread

I don't know what I will use to do the yarn Glen uses to hold the insulation. The method seems a little rough (no offense) and I wonder if anyone has a better way. I'm going to be a stickler about allowing full loft and durable ideas.

Any ideas, tips, suggestions, or other anything?

I'm open to ideas or your previous mistake stories. Simple things I may not know as a manly seamstress.

After writing all this I may have decided to make a solo quilt that is the worst case scenario worthy. Example, Bad storm hits and your lost away from your tent. Pull out your primaloft quilt and make like a cocoon. Maybe a two-ply Gortex with my mystery backing. Wind & Water proof yet nummy warm.

I just scrolled up forever, sorry for the long post.
Thanks,
GuruJ

The luv pita is an interesting idea but shure won't be light weight for a summit hike. If you realy want a windproof sleeping bag then get a material made for the purpose and use the mystery fabric for clothing and such.
Oh yah... and shorter posts definately are easier to read.
Welcome to the forum,
Scott

The biggest problem I see is the actual quilting process that stops the layers separating. You'll need to sandwich them up with the backing, Permaloft, and top, baste all three layers together, and then quilt them. Permaloft is a lot loftier and bouncier than ordinary quilt batting, and the fabrics are a lot more slippery...

If you don't want to poke extra holes in the fabric by pin basting or thread basting, you may like to look into the use of a spray baste, and what effect this might have on your materials.

You'll also need to see if your machine is capable of quilting this mix, and if you've never quilted before, you might need to practice quite a bit! OK, so this won't be as closely quilted as a regular patchwork quilt, but it's large, and you need to do it nicely for it to work.

Thanks for the quick posts.

A few things. TurkeyBacon mentioned that it won't be light enough for summits and suggests using a more qualified material. I think that what I'm using is as lite or lighter then any sleeping bag material. The hemp bag I used to carry the primaloft and fabric is heavier then what it's carrying. The finished weight should be less then 1.7lbs with hardware.

The other issue Kate brought up was the quilting. I didn't want to quilt it as it would cause seams and heat loss though it. I know sleepingbags have offset seams when quilting but I can't see that working for me. While I didn't want to pin or thread baste, compared to quilting I think it might be better. Both for keeping loft and my amateur skills. I saw the spray basting things you talked about and I don't want to chance ruining the DWR or Primaloft with Liquefied Petroleum Gas.

Any other way to baste?

My machine should be able to sew through it all. I have done leather bags for the wife with it and that was much heavier.

Thanks,
GuruJ

Primaloft Sport is soft, has a good clo value (0.74), and drapes well. But in your quilt design, its requirement of unquilted areas no larger than two square feet is going to be a problem, especially as you have stated that you don't want to stabilize the interior panel of your design.

Primaloft One is even harder to work with. Those sub-denier fibers are so fine you're supposed to limit unquilted areas to 6 square inches.

Leaving either one unquilted over large spans is going to result in an insulation tear. You might get a little time out of sport before it tears, but Primaloft One without quilting on large panels is a real show-stopper.

You might consider a continuous filament insulation instead as they also have high clo values (0.82 for XP, 0.78 for Combat, 0.67 polarguard delta, 0.63 polarguard 3D, 0.65 climashield green). More importantly to your design, though, is that they are much better at spanning your big panels without interior quilting. You still might tear it with rough treatment, but it'd be far, far less likely than with Primaloft.

Primaloft's primary application is in apparel where things like softness, drape, and lack of bulk are of prime importance.

Welcome Scott,

Ayce you mention PolarGuard 3D being better for larger areas because it's a continuous filament type insulation. How hard is it to replace in a sleeping bag that had 3D orginally but lost loft?

Also, I understand the premise of saving body heat by using the 2 person PITA Scott is describing. The weight trade off can be offset by the other partner carrying an equivelent amount of gear half the weight of the Pita IMO.

I feel rain on my parade.

After reading your post Ayce I pulled out the Primaloft and played with it. You are right about needing some support if I stay using this.

I have two ideas....
One, just bite it and pin/thread baste it. Your post made me think that Glen's quilt would have fallen apart.
Two quilt one layer of the Primaloft to the A side and offset the quilting on the B side. When sandwiched together it should have the quilting offset like a good sleeping bag. No cold spots.

If you have any other ideas please let me know. I would love to use the materials I have to do this. The weight of the solo piece with this material would be 7 ounces without the shockcord. I'm guessing the the dbl pita would be around 18oz.

Thanks!

you meant 18 ozs right? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the reply Earthling. (my name is Jason not Scott)

Your right about the splitting gear. We figure that taking a quilt instead of two sleeping bags will make things much lighter. It will also allow me to get a heavier, comfy pad. (Looking at the SynMats or Big Agnes. any suggestions?....) I'm a side sleeper and perform like crap on a bad nights sleep. A great pad will make my trips more comfortable and my climbing stronger.

My climbing partners and I split all shared gear and we are excited about the extra volume more then the weight of the two sleeping bags. The weight will be nice, but the bags take up room I could really use or even consider taking a smaller pack for Ranier or Denali. Maybe 3000-3500cu inch instead of the 4000-5000cu inch.

The more I think about it I want to make another project, a bivy/quilt suited for the worst conditions. When making the last day summit I hate taking the full on tent/ footy, & tarp. A sleeping quilt/bag that could stand a serious night out in the worst conditions would be perfect. I would have to sleep fully clothed in it and probably against a col or rock overhang. Could be used as a sleeping quilt in normal conditions and bivy in an emergency.
I could never sleep in a bivy unless in deep trouble. I need bug coverage even in the warmest weather. So the bivy would be only for SNAFU's. I just wonder if I can make it ultra usable as a bivy but still as a quilt for two without compromising anything. Anyway I will do this after I finish this Pita project.

Namaste,
GuruJ

Jason
www.AscendWell.com

Just my opinion, but beware of overestimating the warmth of two layers of 3-oz. Primaloft.
I have a Mountain Hardware Compressor Jacket, which uses Primaloft One (comparable to the Spruce), and it's not nearly as warm as a fairly light down jacket. Your experience has obviously been different from mine, though.

I don't mean to insult your intelligence here, but be sure and test your quilt under cold conditions before taking it to Rainier or Denali.

Also, the B46 nylon thread is kind of heavy for that light fabric. Regular Gutermann polyester thread will likely sew better.

The problem I see with quilting one layer to each fabric and then sandwiching them together is that the two layers will rub against each other in use and abraid each other, causing uneven wear.

Well then, Welcome Jason! Check out Bill/Gardenville's posts and or blogspot as he is the Guru of the sewing machine in UL gear IMO.

So, is Bill Fornsell (sp) and gardenville the same? I noticed they are both from SA and was wondering if they are one and the same. Having just moved from SA, I was surprised that there was actually another individual that likes backpacking and lives there. They have different avatars for here and BPL.com. I have been reading alot of Bill's work on BPL and he has really got me thinking about a lot of stuff with pack design and quilt design.

Hi finallyME,

Yep, one and the same. I have owned a home here in SA for a long time. I have thought about moving to a real 4 season area (think snow) but I am to connected to some really great medical care and don't want to move and have to start over with a new bunch.

Gardenville is a trail name that I had when I first joined here. I change the avatars at BPL.com when ever I make something really different. The hammock I am in on the avatar at BPL is made out of Cuben Fiber and really light. It was about 38 degrees "F" in SA where I live this morning so I was out in it checking out a new idea for a sleeping pad.

The Cuben fiber part of the hammock weighs 2.36 ounces. Everything else necessary to hang the hammock adds another 4.59 ounces for a total hammock hanging weight of 6.95 ounces. I am working on the weight to try and bring it down another ounce or so. Anyone interested can check it out here.
Cuben Hammock

To keep this sort of on-topic I stopped making quilts. I now make a sleeping bag but with a non-insulated bottom. I use very light Cuben fiber for the non-insulated bottom to keep the weight as low as possible. The non-insulated bottom keeps the sides of what used to be my quilts under control and they are a lot warmer than a quilt.

"To keep this sort of on-topic I stopped making quilts. I now make a sleeping bag but with a non-insulated bottom. I use very light Cuben fiber for the non-insulated bottom to keep the weight as low as possible. The non-insulated bottom keeps the sides of what used to be my quilts under control and they are a lot warmer than a quilt."

Hey Bill,
So while this question is on topic but off question, as a person who made quilts and swiched to a hybid sleeping bag, what are your thoughts on summer bags? SInce warmth is not the most important factor in summer bags (versatility of temps is IMO) what technique would you use for summer.
Thanks,
Scott

Mr. Gardenville!
Thanks for stopping by my post. I noticed you mention you don't make the quilts anymore but sleeping bags.
Actually my wife's pita idea came from her version of a Big Agnes Sleeping Bag (for those that don't know they only insulate the top and have a sleeve for your pad on the bottom).
Is that what you are doing?

I also wanted to know what your thoughts ( and everyone else's) are on the pita design? Your knowledge in actually making them is invaluable to me. I have seen your other work and am very impressed.

The reason for the pita was to have some edge control and ability for the person on each side to put out a leg on a warmer night or get out without ripping the side.

I made a muslin pita at .50 scale and the high seam on the one side was all bad. This new design should allow you to stay covered and feel snug from bugs (wife demand).


Any suggestions or better ideas?

Also I wanted your thoughts on my quilting vs thread basting dilemma?

Thanks,
GuruJ

kate,
thanks for your well thought out posts. I have changed my design to fit some of your thoughts. The first was to

(Kate and anyone else feel free to chime in.)
I practiced on a smaller scale model with the design and have been practicing my quilting. I'm great at it on muslin, cheap ripstop.... not so much. I did a small 2ft segment with my mystery material and it seemed easier to quilt then the other synthetics I have practiced on. I'm dreading quilting this thing....

- Will thread basting not work for my project? After my quilting practice I feel not so confident and would like any other suggestions. My wife is bringing home a tightly woven acrylic yarn that I'm gonna practice with on the cheap ripstop and some old insulation from a Thrift shop parka. I know this is a small sample but I wanna test the small before I go big and waste.

Would basting every 1.5 feet be enough or should I go 1foot. The other Ploft quilt went every 2feet.

I also read about the rubbing of the insulation you deemed a problem. Will it pull apart on itself? In my new design (Hoping still for basting instead of quilting) I came up with two options:
1. Sew one layer of the Ploft (backing out) to side "A". Sew the other layer of the Ploft (backing out) to side "B". When I put "A" to "B" the Ploft backs would face each other and the open insulation side facing the mystery fabric.

2. Is shown in the picture below. Basically, sew the first layer of primaloft to another backing and then to side "A". I would then pin and spray the second layer of Ploft to side "B", align and sew "A" to "B". This adds 4grams.


Along with the basting I am changing the final seams to leave more of the pita open. My muslin sample ripped when the inside person tries to get out. Also I'm a hot body (figuratively & literally <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) & often need to throw out a leg to cool off.

I'm thinking about not using the folding and just making 3 pieces of fabric instead of one continuous.

I'm also planning to add some triangle pieces of mystery fabric to one end. The triangles will have a grommet holding 1/2 webbing 6 inches long. I will use the grommet with my trekking poles (upside down). I can make a quick shelter or lean-to with it or use some nylon cord to tie it up. The 1/2inch webbing is for connecting to my backpack to dry it off while hiking. My Deuter has two extra ladder locks. I can also use the webbing to connect to the bottom of my pad. (I always sew a ladder lock to my pads for connecting my bag.) I was trying to figure out how to get both in one package. I think this design is the best of both worlds. I used the triangle heavy ripstop to spread the stress of the connections across more surface space.


Everyones ideas, suggestions, flames, and otherwise are welcomed!!!!!!!

Thanks for everyones help!

GuruJ

Thread basting tends to be rather loose. Yes, you get far fewer holes, but you also get much more movement of the layers, leading to wear spots, sheering, and gaps. Take a look back at the recommended quilting distance of the insulation. This might help with 'tying' the quilt,. Rather than continuous LINES of stitches, you can 'tie' the quilt at intervals all over. Here's an explanation:

http://www.nmia.com/~mgdesign/qor/begin/tying.htm

You do the ties at the recommended distance apart for quilting.

Quilters often use bunches of decorative threads for this method. You can also use bar tacks on the sewing machine or other decorative motifs, though machined methods tend to squash the pile down more than hand tying.

Hi Jason,

I think I first looked at this thread on the second day or so after you posted it. It was after AYCE / Paul at Thru-Hiker.com had left his comments.

I have never slept with another person in a quilt or sleeping bag so I have no real idea how much warmer that might be. I did sleep with my wife many a night and know that two bodies, at times, can generate a lot of heat.

I looked for the low temperature you were trying for but don't think you posted one.

I have made a number of quilts and my share of different kinds of sleeping bags. I have tried about every kind of insulation that is easy to buy and one that is not easy to buy. I have some of each of the Primaloft insulation types that AYCE / Paul - Thru-Hiker sells except the ones he had pre-quilted with Momentum 90. AYCE / Paul had told me he was getting the Momentum / Primaloft pre quilted and I thought that was one of the best ideas I had heard in a long time.

I have a bunch of the Primaloft One 1.8 factory pre-quilted insulation and have used it for several insulated things. Primaloft One insulation is very good but if it isn't pre-quilted to something it is just not worth the extra trouble for me to use it.

I would not use Primaloft insulation for something as large as you have planned. Thru-Hiker suggested you use one of the Climashield insulations as they would not need as much (tying / quilting together). I expect that Paul at Thru-Hiker knows more about fabric and insulation than anyone. He has helped a lot of folks with material and insulation questions. He and I used to talk a lot about making gear and what material was best for a give item. I was always after the lightest possible weight for a given item so we did not always agree on the material. I have to say that I don't think he was ever wrong from the "normal" backpackers point of view.

For a quilt as large as you want to make, Primaloft One if it isn't pre-quilted is just to much trouble to use.

I would use Climashield XP in the 5 ounce per sq yard version.

After much consideration and great wisdom from you all (THANKS!) I have decided to take your advice and ditch my original materials.

I'm also a little ticked off with Seattle Fabrics. When I asked them about working with the loose PLoft One vs. the quilted they assured me I wouldn't need quilting. They said the thread basting was fine every two feet and said that the quilted Ploft only adds more weight for no reason. They knew my use, saw the pictures and plans and gave me bad advice. When I called "nicely" to ask them about exchanging or getting a store credit for it (I shop there alot) he basically told me it was my fault for not doing research. When I explained that I used him & his sales people for my research he basically told me "too bad" and won't take my Ploft back. I'm shocked they are willing to lose a decent customer of years because they won't take back 4.5 yards of continuous PLoft. I don't want this to be a flame but I used to spend a good amount of dough there, no longer. This isn't the first time I got bad advice from them and had to cover the costs of learning the right way on my own.
(Anyone wanna buy 4.5 yards un-quilted Ploft 1? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> )

I believe in Karma, and after getting hosed I was blessed with a member here telling me to "listen to Ayce". I didn't realize Ayce was also Thru-Hiker, once I did I called him today and got the skinny on everything. (I apologize if I'm talking about another business on someone else's site. I'm not sure who is who, who owns what, and the politics. I come in peace and hope not to offend anyone.)

All I can say is thank god for you all telling me I was way off on my products. I only wish you all weren't so sweet about it. It took too many posts for my thick head to get it.

Ayce basically confirmed what you all said. I needed quilting and alot more of it then I planned. After a little chat I decided on getting the Momentum quilted Ploft One 6 oz. 2nd's. I will get two layers of that and offset it. The Momentum is closer in feel & look to my inspiration (my green REI jacket pictured in the 1st post). My mystery fabric (all 9 yards) will go to a zillion stuff sacks I guess. I'm gonna send a sample to Ayce and see if I can use it for a tarp or anything else. I'm not much for making clothes other then some pajama pants and skirts/ dresses for my wife.

I feel much better about this and look forward to getting the right materials, now that I have good information. Once again big thanks to Ayce @ Thru and the rest of you for helping me make a better decision.

All in all, I got pooped on and feel like I came up smelling like a Rose. The Universe Provides!

Thanks all,
GuruJ

Hey is that Ed Viesturs.

What was he like?

Was he totally cool?

Did you get his autograph?


Please I am a climber junkie. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

The folks at Seattle Fabrics don't seem to have a great deal of technical knowledge about the fabrics that backpackers are interested in. In their defense, though, I think it's pretty much understood that fabric stores don't take back cut fabric. If they did, I could take back that "smoke" colored wicking fabric that looked gray in the store but had a distinct lavender cast out in the sun. I've been tricked by fleece, too. Moral: always take it over by the window. I guess I'll be getting in touch with my feminine side, in a stinky, wicking sort of way <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just looked at Seattle Fabrics' web site, and they don't actually have quilted Primaloft One listed.

About Ed....... A Bro-mance like no other.....

First I emailed Ed off his website because I wanted to see if he actually wore those Timberland Cadion boots that are they new must have backpacking boot he designed.

Timberland Cadion Classic GTX
He not only emailed me back the next day but he responded to my questions and gave his gear suggestions. (I bought the boots and boy o boy... the best backpacking boot I ever owned and 1/2 the price! They really are exactly 1/2 the weight of my La Sportivas and Montrail while giving me twice the support. I use them for day hikes and week long scrambles with an expedition size pack. I love I can wear them as mountain boots as well with the crampon compatibility. I have owned a number of different brands since being a boy scout 26 years ago, I will never go back! I love the Ed V SOLE as well. Kicks the crap out of SuperFeet!). He really does wear the boots until he gets to plastic boot line.

After buying the boots I emailed him about how happy I was with them, He replied nicely back again.

I later met him at a Mountaineers.org event in Seattle Jan2008 where he showed some sick @ss slides, did a Q & A, & took pictures, read and signed his book. I felt stupid telling him I listened to his book on MP3 instead of reading it, so I bought the paperback for him to sign. He also took that picture with me and said he would sign it if I sent it to his place on the island.

All in all I he seemed like a very "guy" & smart man. No real ego and he stayed ans smiled and signed for 300+ DWR covered people. I would highly recommend you see his show if possible. Some of the slides look Photoshopped they are so unreal!

Seeing that Ed is in my backyard I always think I may run into him on a trail somewhere..... not yet.

Check out his website here http://www.edviesturs.com/

I heard you can Climb Mt. Rainier with Ed Viesturs this summer! To rich for my blood. I will just crash their campfire one night with some espresso and save 3 grand.

I hope the long version feeds your junkie habit till you can get a better fix. If you haven't read his book, do it.

Peace bro,
GuruJ

Ya I have bit the bullet more then a few times for my faults and theirs. I'm only mad because they told me it would work. The exact worry I had, they stressed was not a problem. I would never expect a fabric shop to make up for my mistakes. I have quite they collection of textiles from mistakes.

Ya they don't offer the quilted Ploft. I think thats why they said I would be fine working with it raw.

(from what I understand). The quilted stuff is usually made by a 3rd party not from the factory
About the tech knowledge you are so right. Nice to know that when Ayce says its a good DWR, we know he has probably slept or hiked in it. Live & learn I guess! I'm happier for now having a better place for help & service! ( to end positive!)

GuruJ

It's a bugger when you end up paying for inaccurate advice. Don't despair, however. I'm sure if you tuck it away somewhere quiet it'll come in handy down the line. I have fabric more than 25 years old just waiting for the right project... You could always make it into a nice winter bed quilt for home, using the methods describes, but covering it in a nice jazzy cotton print. Or even go the whole hog and make a patchwork top for one side! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

IMSHO, its' not effective because you get a nice big draft in between the two sleepers.

Now, I'd follow whatever Paul/Ayce has to say about working with quilted layers. He's "da man" as far as I am concerned, and has assisted me with some projects.

The quilted projects I've done have had the insulation quilted to the lining, and the main fabric free floating. This is how Paul designs many of the Thru Hiker items.