Engineering Design Project

I'm a 4th year engineering student studying Composite Materials Engineering at Winona State University. We're working on our senior design project, and the product we're proposing to design and manufacture is an external frame for a backpack. Since almost all production frames for these backpacks are made out of aluminum, we thought it would be beneficial and interesting to fabricate one out of a carbon fiber reinforced composite material.

With that said, my question is if anyone would be able to provide input from a customer based standpoint on our product versus standard aluminum external frames? Another detail about our idea is that we would like the frame and pack to act as a dual purpose item, with the frame and pack folding out into a cot. Therefore one wouldn't have to sleep on the ground.

For our project we do actually need 5 "potential customers" with actual name and contact information (email really), so if anyone here would feel so compelled to share some customer input on a product such as this, please email me your ideas --> comtecintern@yahoo.com


Thank you so much in advance!

I'll just offer my initial thoughts.

The dual purpose idea is great but sleeping on the ground isn't usually a big deal. I would suggest instead of a cot either shelter supports/tent poles or even a chair. Maybe get creative and create a toilet seat for those who prefer not to squat.

I don't know much about carbon fiber durability so maybe these questions aren't very good. How does it hold up to cold? People use their packs in below freezing weather. Also, I've read that some carbon fiber items can be brittle. Will the frame break if dropped?

Why would people want an external frame? I still like mine, but I'm weird. Marketing such an item might prove the biggest challenge.

Yeah we just realized that, unfortunately, internal fram packs are more popular by a large margin. Doesn't diminish the project itself since we won't actually be marketing and selling the item, we just have to propose it and manufacture it next semester.

Thanks for the input!

I love senior design projects. I still remember how fun mine was. A carbon fiber pack frame would be a great idea. I would ditch the cot idea, either keep it a single use item or maybe use it for tent supports or a chair. Here are some variables that would sway people to purchase one.

1. cost. Aluminum is pretty cheap. It is also easy and cheap to manufacture. Plastic is really easy to mold as well.
2. Weight. If you can beat the weight and durability of an internal frame suspension system, then it wouldn't matter how much it would cost.

I think you might want to explore internal frame packs that use a carbon fiber support system too. As for dual purpose, I think I'd rather have a chair or stool to sit on too, than a cot to sleep on.

A chair or stool should be lighter, and possibly easier to integrate into your design.

While a chair may seem like something that's so simple it doesn't need to be considered, it's actually been a very difficult problem for backpackers to solve.
The issue has to do with weight vs utility, and so far no design that I know of has hit the mark necessary to make it onto many backpacker's gear list.

For me, even a backrest would be a wonderful addition to my gear list, especially if it was dual purpose and added no weight to what I already carry. A backrest would obviously need to be built quite similar to a pack frame, so it might be done with some clean and simple design changes.

Let us know what you come up with...

If I read the original post right, this is a paper project, not one that will acutally be produced and sold.

That said, I think the students could have fun with this. Look at these designs: < http://www.csm.ornl.gov/~geist/Philmont/Chair-e-it.pdf >;< http://luxurylite.com/ >;< http://www.slinglight.com/ >.

The first URL explains how to use a Sling-Light chair as a pack frame/chair/cot. Luxurylite sells a carbon-fiber pack frame, hiking pole, and cot that uses the poles for side pieces. The last leads to the Sling-Light chair website.

If you choose to make the chair also function as a cot, I suggest that you design it to expand horizontally because the typical seat/packframe is far too narrow for comfort. It will be easier to just do something like the Chair-e-ot with just the chair/pack functions.

CM

ZPacks is way ahead of you in the carbon fiber external frame department! New "Exo" Backpack.

Gossamer Gear was probably the earliest to try carbon fiber stays in an internal frame pack, but they discontinued them in favor of bendable aluminum.

You did read this right for the most part. We will be only creating a proposal for this semester, but the spring semester we would be actually manufacturing a fully functional prototype. But yes, this product will not be mass produced or sold, at least not by us haha.

Be careful when working with carbon fiber. Splinters are nasty and breathing the dust (from cutting, etc.) is harmful.

"Mom"

I have carbon fiber trekking poles that take a pounding - but not horizontally, only from the top to bottom, vertically.

I do my best not to put any horizontal pressure on the poles. I don't think carbon fiber is best for that... Not sure I would want a cot made of it for that reason.

Fun and interesting project! Some thoughts...

Carbon fiber comes in many forms. Bike crank arms and some frames are so stiff they beat you to death. No flex at all. And then, the carbon spars I use in my kites can be torqued all around and can be very flexible and shock absorbing. Maybe design a simple and light external frame that can be "contoured" to ones back curvature by using tiny loop/buckle tabs along the rods.
I'd fore-go the cot idea. Emptying the pack to make a cot would not be attractive, to me. Instead, tarp supports maybe?
Telescoping from the pack frame? Could the tubes be thick enough to store something inside? Thick doesn't mean "heavy", as your tubing walls could be thinner.

I have an antenna design (for back country communications) on this website where I store the elements inside the shaft when collapsed...a carbon arrow shaft. The whole thing is 2.1 ozs. You'd be surprised what you can store in an arrow shaft.

Thanks for the link. They have the best tarp I've seen for Hammocks.

At 5 ounces, it's hard to beat.

http://www.zpacks.com/large_image.shtml?shelter/hammock_tarps/hammock_doors_closed_l.jpg

Now you have me thinking....thanks.

That's pretty cool, but this "Cloud Kilt" has to be the ultimate in hiking clothing.

(Where's Bigfoot2?, he needs one of these )

Would anybody here be willing to participate in a survey and be one of our "potential customers"? If so, please PM your first and last name and email, it would be greatly appreciated.

Check out this thread - http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/...thread_id=43311

BM