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#178701 - 07/28/13 11:30 AM friendly reminder...
jacob9795 Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 11
Loc: California, U.S.
I just thru-hiked the JMT and was disgusted in the amount of trash I was finding along side the trail. Suckers like me actually pick this trash up and carry it out. Some of the trash may be left by accident so please double check after breaks to make sure you've picked everything up. Also, please do not carve your name in the trees. Lastly, the east side of Mt. Whitney was a complete disaster (trash, poo, wag bags, etc). I know this problem is caused by day hikers and if it were up to me I would shut down this trail to day hiking!

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#178702 - 07/28/13 12:02 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: jacob9795]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
The "wag bag" method versus keeping the composting toilet at Trail Camp is not working. Given the number of permits issued, the idea of not having a poo facility (because it is against "structures in the wilderness" ethic), is not practical. Either drastically cut the permits or re-install the composting toilet. Same problem at Muir Trail Ranch (Balaney Hot Springs), which I was at last week. I was going to camp outside the established camp area and all I saw were little holes of poo dug up by animals. This "camp" could use a composting toilet, like that in Little Yosemite (and it could be paid for by a $5 fee per permit). I do not think you can have it both ways - lots of permits issued and no facilities to handle the crowds. I also think the JMT hikers need to be a bit more flexible and not just follow a guide-book schedule, all camping at the same places. The JMT actually is a beautiful trail, ruined by too much use. Get out a map, and devise your own route, not entirely on the JMT. There are multiple possibilities.

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#178715 - 07/28/13 07:35 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: wandering_daisy]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
I agree - I have been doing sections of the JMT as part of other trips. The thrus all seem so clueless - good thing the trail is a freeway else they would get a mile off it and be lost.... I would tell them where we were headed and get a blank look. There are tons of fantastic places just off the main trail. A friend took a month to do the JMT just for that reason, so he could visit some of them.

I have been pointedly avoiding Whitney for just the reasons you mention. I will probably try again to do it from the west side as part of a longer trip and not venture out to the Portal. Weather kept me from doing it last time.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#178719 - 07/28/13 08:54 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: lori]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Lori, I don't think it is accurate and it is certainly prejudicial and elitist to categorize all JMT through-hikers as "clueless". You may see them (us) as clueless but, in fact, you are saying more about you and the way you see the world than you are about the highly diverse group of people who choose to hike the JMT for whatever reason.

I'm hiking the JMT again in a couple of weeks. This will be my third JMT through-hike; my first was in 1954. I certainly don't think of myself as clueless and furthermore, I don't think that you are in a position to judge me or any of the other people who wish to hike this scenic national treasure. Sure, some of the JMT hikers are "clueless"; others have decades of experience hiking all over the world. I am sure that we JMT through-hikers will have a memorable experience on the trail in spite of your disapproval.
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#178722 - 07/28/13 10:14 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: Pika]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
I think of you as a backpacker who hiked the JMT.

I certainly don't think everyone who hikes the JMT is clueless - if you think that's so I'm also insulting my friend who I mentioned in the same post... who is a backpacker like me.

The folks who thru hike with a singleminded goal and don't stop for lightning or scenery - they don't care about the backpacking, they want the goal - are clueless about the rest of the mountain range.

Forgive my poor wording, but that's all I really meant.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#178723 - 07/28/13 10:26 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: jacob9795]
topshot Offline
member

Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 242
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By jacob9795
I just thru-hiked the JMT and was disgusted in the amount of trash I was finding along side the trail.
I was surprised by the lack of trash I saw on our recent trip which included the northern 40 miles or so of the JMT heading into Yosemite.

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#178729 - 07/29/13 08:53 AM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: lori]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I've mentioned before, I did a trip out of Mammoth/Purple Lake area a few years back, after leaving Purple Lake where I stayed my first night, I saw no one for 4 days, but once back on the JMT, I saw 20 people within an hour by Horse Heaven. With that said, on my just completed trip into Desolation, the first mile into Eagle Lake, I saw 40 people. Beyond that, they thinned out pretty quickly. More surprising, was the lack of trash, but some tp by Susie Lake and illegal campfires.
Duane

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#178733 - 07/29/13 11:28 AM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: Pika]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
There are a mix of folks on the JMT from very experienced, very responsible to absolute clueless types. I have never found the trail "trashed" with garbage, but there are a lot of wayward snips of small pieces of trail bar wrapping, a little Kleenex, etc. I think these things just get away from people in the wind - I do not think they actually just toss them on the trail. I found some of the JMT hikers in over their heads and so exhausted that they lacked energy to do that extra effort for "leave no trace". I talked to a few JMT hikers and asked why then did not just camp a quarter mile or even a few hundred yards off the trail, and they said at the end of the day they were so exhausted that even getting 10 feet off the trail was more than they wanted to do!

Another problem I saw was that so many had just a small packet for trail maps (really not even maps but just a line map trail profile). Kind of hard to really know where you are if you only have a "tunnel" corridor map. Here is where the GPS is probably a good choice. Also, too much information may be in guidebooks- and this micromanages JMT hike plans. I think if each group/person did their trip planning in more detail, with their own needs and limitations in mind, there would be less traffic jams.

I feel the entire problem with the JMT is too many people bunch up on it. No kidding I would go 6 days and see nobody then get on the JMT and within an hour see 20+ people. Lots of the groups (particularly younger hikers) really viewed the JMT as a social experience. This is a little foreign to me as I prefer solitude and a wilderness experience. I could hear JMT hikers coming before I saw them, yak, yak, yak! Guess this is a generational difference! My kids think I am a hermit!

The problem with the permit system is that the quotas are for trailheads, not just specifically for the JMT. Not only JMT hikers, but a lot of others, like me, also get on the JMT on parts of our trips. That can mean hordes of folks at one place, not intended, but just random.

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#178735 - 07/29/13 01:10 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: wandering_daisy]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
I've found all kinds on trail; both friendly and unfriendly, some blaring music (powered by solar panels....) some just only enjoying nature, as well as the overwhelmed and the HYOH people. Its just another slice of humanity. And for some reason, people hiking tend to bunch up.

On this last trip of mine, the JMT seemed like a freeway. But I carried out all my trash including the tp and usually camped well away from everyone else. Even picked up stuff I found along the way. Felt good; felt LNT.

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#178740 - 07/29/13 05:22 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: skcreidc]
balzaccom Online   content
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
Daisy: Nice post.

We always find that our best experiences are off the beaten path, and often off the trail completely.

The JMT has become a rite of passage for people, and I often wonder if once they have done it, do they ever go backpacking again?
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#178745 - 07/29/13 09:01 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: balzaccom]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
If only it were just the JMT. As of late I find myself carrying a trash bag just for trash.

Conversely, I went prepared up Bubbs Creek to haul out trash left in bear boxes. The ones in Junction Meadow and at Sphinx Cr bridge were empty of trash. I guess, despite the presence of thrus headed down to Roads End, those are enough off the beaten freeway of the JMT to escape becoming trash heaps as the ones in Vidette were the year I camped there.

The heavy used Dinkey Wilderness and the heavier used Jennie Lake Wilderness are examples of what happens when people ignore rules. Fire rings in the wrong places, little piles of tp behind large obstacles blocking the view from the trail, and there is precious little firewood within a few minutes' walk of the legal campsites. And fires - during a ban.

I took a backpacking class to Hobler which is just a half day's hike from the Maxson trailhead at Courtright Reservoir. Dudes across the lake lit a BONFIRE ten feet tall and kept it going all afternoon and evening. I took pictures and we intended to get their license plate the following day and report them, but they beat feet before we could do that. A-holes - and to think that on Saturday they hiked all the way in breathing smoke from the Aspen Fire!
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#178751 - 07/29/13 11:40 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: balzaccom]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
People hike the JMT for all sorts of reasons. I met several who were doing it for the third or more time. One guy in his 60's said he did it when he was a teen and wanted to do it again. One gray haired woman was singing as she walked down the trail- singing a song about John Muir! She was doing it because she was a John Muir worshiper. Although I actually met a lot who were doing it multiple times, most seemed to be doing it for the name-sake of the trail or as a once-in-lifetime trip. It is a "big name" trail that everyone recognizes. You can then say, "I hiked the JMT this summer." That gets attention; people immediately know what you did. It is sort of a bench mark they measure themselves against. Most seem not to care how crowded the trail gets. The more the merrier. Many think they are getting a wilderness experience. In fact, if you want a wilderness experience, do not choose the JMT. Exception is off season - THEN, you can hike the JMT and have a wilderness experience, at least most of the time.

It is all relative. Most hikers I met who were from back East, accustomed to well used trails, said they thought the JMT was comparatively more of a wilderness experience. Wilderness experience or not, it does go through fabulous country and doing it IS an accomplishment. Not my cup of tea, but I congratulate those who finish it.

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#178766 - 07/30/13 11:11 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: wandering_daisy]
jacob9795 Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 11
Loc: California, U.S.
I'm a real hermit too when hiking outdoors as well. On this trip I did a lot of dry-camping to stay away from the hoards of people camping at popular lakes and trail junctions. I had to bulldoze my way through people on Forester pass! I'm a friendly guy though and would stop and talk to some people because it does get kind of lonely out there after awhile.
In regards to trash, I noticed some people are using "Wet Ones Antibacterial Handwipes" and burying them along with TP, I suppose, which are not decomposing fast enough. I'm almost positive that these wipes decompose at a much slower rate than TP. These wipes are loaded with scents that attract animals that come and dig them up. So pack this product out guys. Plastic speaks for itself. Pack the icky stuff in a couple of zip-lock bags and you'll be fine wink.
Lori, I saw so many places I want to see now that I have hiked this "highway" trail. It's a real eye-opener to what's out there.
Where are all the bears? Did anyone see one?

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#178773 - 07/31/13 08:51 AM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: jacob9795]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
As a kid in the '60's, we always saw bears in Yosemite. Since my dog passed away and I've been able to bp there the last 10 years, I have yet to see a bear or scat. Maybe I need to leave some bait out? smile
Duane

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#178776 - 07/31/13 09:53 AM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: jacob9795]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
The fact that you saw no bears means that the bear canister requirements are working! Bears are being re-trained, learning that people food is not readily available to raid.

Another reason you probably did not see bear is that you were not specifically looking, and more so, you were not off trail. I see bear scat, prints, pieces of fur and markings on trees all the time. However, I used to see multiple bears a day and the last few years have not seen any. Along the JMT bears prowl at night when you are snug in your tent.

Bag and carry out ALL paper products - wipes, Kleenex AND toilet paper. There OP(odor proof) bags you can buy if you feel it is needed. I just put the trash in used zip-lock bags after the food is emptied and store them in the bottom of the bear canister. TP eventually biodegrades, but animals often dig it up within weeks of burying it. And on a busy trail, this means TP pieces blown around by the wind.

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#178780 - 07/31/13 10:16 AM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: wandering_daisy]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
What she said.

We had bears hammering the bear cans each night a few years back - between TM and Reds, sometimes twice a night.

You didn't see them because you drew a lucky lotto number. Hundreds of hikers and a bear every few miles - they are there, just not always in the same place all the time. And they are really good at not being detected if they don't want to be, like the mountain lions.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#178781 - 07/31/13 10:19 AM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: jacob9795]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By jacob9795

Lori, I saw so many places I want to see now that I have hiked this "highway" trail. It's a real eye-opener to what's out there.


You saw a fraction of it. There are many, many miles of other fantastic places ... some of them you have to talk to locals to find.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#178790 - 07/31/13 01:40 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: jacob9795]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
Perhaps this is another reason to consider hiking a bit outside the busiest time. My wife and I hiked the standard (SOBO) JMT this past September and I don't recall trash or TP or anything like that. Just a lot less people out, or so I understand (I've never been through there in the really busy time).
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Brian Lewis
http://postholer.com/brianle

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#178796 - 07/31/13 03:57 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: BrianLe]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
That's what I like about taking a late vacation in Sept. or Oct. very few people out. Of course three out of the last four years there has been snow at that time, messing up three trips or causing a major change. Then the much shorter days by then. I've hit normally super popular areas and seen six people in a week.:)
Duane

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#178801 - 07/31/13 08:29 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: BrianLe]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
The only complication with later (after Sept 15) thru hiking will be the shutdown of most services - the resupply spots will be closed for the winter, so then it's a game of finding other hikers or packers to bring in your food resupply - or of carrying everything for the whole duration. And then getting to the end of the trail and finding a ride back to town.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#178835 - 08/01/13 01:55 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: lori]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
Quote:
"The only complication with later (after Sept 15) thru hiking will be the shutdown of most services"


Excellent point. We started Sept 8th and finished Sept 24th, and those things weren't a problem for us on those particular dates (in that year ...).

It was a bit of a challenge to piece together bus service from Lone Pine to Yosemite, but by being flexible in our starting date we managed that.

We resupplied at Muir Trail Ranch with no problem, and in fact could have done so without mailing anything (there was so much left in the hiker buckets at that point). We took a day off at the little motel/cabins at Reds Meadows and they were still open for that and serving meals, though the resupply pickings in their store were a little on the lean side (but adequate).

Getting a ride from Whitney Portal to Lone Pine proved quite easy; still lots of people climbing the mountain at that point, but it was a family out for a shorter walk that we met on trail that crammed us in and brought us out.

It might indeed have all been harder had the trip been pushed even a little bit later.
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Brian Lewis
http://postholer.com/brianle

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#179411 - 08/25/13 01:41 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: jacob9795]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
The trail serves a great function - it attracts people. Many people who would never step foot off trail in a wilderness think nothing of hiking on a famous trail - its safe right? Like a hike in the park...

I hope they keep the narrow trimmed topo maps so they stay in that corridor, then the rest of the Sierras will be less crowded. And as for Yosemite - it too is like fly paper.

Theres nothing wrong with wanting to hike the trail. But there are so many other places to go in the Sierras, so much more territory that isn't crowded...

Also - there are all kinds of people on the trail - perhaps a wider assortment than you might find in the rest of the Sierra, and you might not want to meet some of them. What I'm saying is there is a greater chance of boom boxes, drinking,trashing the place, and carrying on where you find a wider variety of people visiting.

Also the 95% rule - 95% of people use 5% of the recreation space - mostly along the trails. Get off trail and suddenly the people you meet are different.
Jim smile
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#179412 - 08/25/13 04:38 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: Jimshaw]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
Get off trail and suddenly the people you meet are different.
Jim smile


I know you were speaking of a specific trail, but this is true in general in my parts. I will go a step further and say when you get off the trail you don't see people at all.
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#179494 - 08/28/13 11:50 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: DTape]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
When I belonged to an eastern Washington hiking/climbing group in the 1980's, the PCT was referred to as "Interstate 2000" (2000 being the trail number) because it was so easy compared to most of the hiking trails in the Cascades. We tried to avoid it where possible!

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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#179519 - 08/29/13 05:54 PM Re: friendly reminder... [Re: OregonMouse]
Jester Offline
member

Registered: 08/08/13
Posts: 63
Originally Posted By OregonMouse
When I belonged to an eastern Washington hiking/climbing group in the 1980's, the PCT was referred to as "Interstate 2000" (2000 being the trail number) because it was so easy compared to most of the hiking trails in the Cascades. We tried to avoid it where possible!



Well, no one ever quit thru-hiking PCT because a mountain was too steep. The challenge lay in all of the things that can happen on a 120+ day trip, and staying on the trail despite them.

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