So I've been putting some thought into buying a day/weekend frameless pack. As my deuter act zero 60+10 is rather large for such trips. I would like the pack to have a slim profile and ride rather tight to the the back. As this will be my primary pack for thru fishing many miles of trail. IE: a little bushwacking, with a little scrambling, a whole lot of wading/ fly fishing , and prob a little cursing. When I loose my fly to the local shrubbery.

This pack will see almost everyday use. As I also need an around town lunch, change of cloths type pack . So id like it fairly small. My three season kit is fairly light and small so I'm sure it will fit in most packs designd for weekends.

I'm currently interested in mountain laurel designs burn.
I've also been looking into Ula packs like there cdt.

I'm really interested in any advice on ul packs and intend on continuing my research to other brands such as osprey, golight and whatever else I can find as the possibilities seem endless .

Basically I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed from the Google searches.and looking for some actual suggestions from the people I trust.

Thanks SAMOSET

How much weight? The general consensus is that total pack weight over 20 lbs. requires some type of frame for most people. For me, it's more like 10 lbs. because I have extremely pressure-sensitive shoulders.

I pack pretty light 14-16lb for a weekend helps I have a minamalist soul. But I'm also pretty hard boddied it takes a lot for me to atleast admit to being uncomfortable. I come from a background of masonry work and hard labor. That and I have used a frameless pack in past and Like concept of virtual frame. I do not use a ccf pad how ever so I beleave compression system is going to be the key to a nice ride.

I would look at a climbing pack or maybe a backcountry ski pack. They tend to be a bit heavier than a UL pack, but should be more comfortable. Some of them have a sheet of plastic for a frame, so they aren't totally frameless.

How about something like this?
http://www.cilogear.com/30lws.html

MNS has a pack from this company. Search for Cilo for a few mentions of it.

That's a real nice looking pack Tom . I faild to mention in my original post that is like to try and keep the pack sub 24oz that would roughly be a 25-26oz weight saving from my deuter on trips up to threedays. Would justify to me spending upwards of $150. When I already have a perfectly good pack.

My experience with virtual frame packs has been mixed. I have a couple of packs that use one's sleeping pad in a pad pocket to provide a frame. This works OK, for me, as long as I don't go with much more than, say, 15 lb total weight. But, a folded pad in a pad pocket next to your back used as a frame has several drawbacks. First, it moves the center of gravity of your pack away from your back by the folded pad thickness. With a light pack this is inconsequential but right after a resupply stop or with a heavy load of food and/or water it makes for an uncomfortable pack and a lot of pull on ones shoulders. Second, a sleeping pad is moisture impermeable so one sweats up a storm between pack and back. Finally, if you use a self-inflating pad, there is more wear and tear on the pad. I have had two leaks show up along fold lines on my pad after a week of use as a frame; YMMV.

The pad-stiffened pack I use most is my Six Moons Starlite. I like it a lot but not with loads of more than 20 lb. Also, I use it with the stay and only one layer of 1/2" CC foam padding in the pad pocket. I prefer to carry my sleeping pad in a side pocket for the reasons I listed above. I suspect that almost all packs with a pad pocket will share the same issues. Superlight packs which simply use the pad as a circumferential pack stiffener are a separate issue; here, I I have little experience.

I made the jump from an external frame Kelty circa late '60's to "frameless" with the purchase of the 24oz SixMoons starlight pack. For myself, I really liked the idea of the internal pocket to stuff my sleeping pad into; this ends up being the pack frame. There are a few pack designs that do this and I have forgotten most already. What sold me on the SixMoons is when the hoop stay came out. This stay is the sides and top of a rectangular shaped piece of aluminum that runs around the sleeping pad pocket for extra support. With this I felt I had full flexiability on loading the pack up. I have had 48 lbs in it (with the hip belt) and been surprisingly comfortable. I think a lot of this has been my selection of pad and how I load the pack up. After 3 trips of varying start weights, I am sold on this as agood fit for me.

I think the key was to purchase the pack, and clean the house wearing the thing with 35 lbs in it. After some experimentation, it was comfortable. If it wasn't, I would have sent it back in new condition under 30 days and all would be good. After I realized I didn't have the time to make my own pack and do modifications, I spent about 6 months shopping before I made my selection.

Things I miss from the external frame...pockets! Pockets for organizing and ease of access. More sweating as the pack is right next to my back. Also, the 48 lb start weight kind of blindsided me on the Winds trip (I couldn't believe the stuff we "had" to bring!). A more realistic max start weight for me is more like 40 lbs with this pack.

Good luck with it Samoset!

My daypack/light overnigher is an Arcteryx ciero 35. It weights 20 oz and holds about 35L. I bought it as a summit pack but its been my goto day pack for 2 years. This year's model has been redesigned so some unnecessary cra,,, er, stuff has been removed. As is often the case, since it has less stuff on it, the price went up $20. Retail is $119. The shoulder straps have reasonable padding. It does have an internal pocket for a pad. The hip belt is not padded but is wide. You may want to take a look at this.

I have a German army mountain ruck that uses a folding pad as a "frame". I echo what you said regarding the shift in center of gravity, and the sweaty back. I can comfortably carry up to 20 pounds or so, and I typically use it for my one-nighters.

Three things: fit, fit and fit. Okay, two more things: a padded back panel (unless you can sleep on a plain foam pad, in which case you are a tougher person than I) and a very good compression system that takes up unused pack space as your load empties.

I've used two comfortable-for-me frameless backpacks: GoLite Jam and Granite Gear Crown 60. Both have padded backpanels, sophisticated compression systems and fit me very well. Because I like their light frame packs, I'm guessing ULA frameless are likewise comfy (and they have myriad fit options).

I'm sure there are others, but I've not tried them. I have had miserable hikes with frameless packs that don't fit well, so I'm pretty leery. Oh yeah, the Osprey Hornet 44 has a minimal rod frame at a frameless weight.

Cheers,

Hello again everyone just wanted to thank you all for replying. Your responses have really been helpful in me deciding the features I'm looking for in a pack, Pika thanks to your post j realize I prob don't want to be putting excessive ware on my neo air. This I'm not necessarily lookin for the pack to have a pad sleave. I actually intend to pack sleeping bag and other bulky gear such as tent fly loosly and allow the compression system on pack do its job in stiffing the pack.

Frankendude you posted another good looking pack aswell right in the range of what I'm looking for but as I thought about it I rather enjoy having three mesh outer pockets for wet things and easy access to snacks and such. Im still afraid of putting water bottles in pack with my down bag so side pockets to me are a must.

Skedrick I appreciate the words of incouragement. I'm going to read a few more reviews on that starlite pack aswell. Bug thanks for letting me know that this can be a successful journy.

Rickd I under stand there's a chance I'll order a pack that ill never be comfortable carrying my intentions are to be properly sized for pack order and where it around house/neighbourhood fully loaded for few hours/ miles . And decide weather or not I like the fit before I dirty it up two bad

Thanks again everyone i intend on continuing my research for another week or two so please don't stop with your responses. I am pretty much sold on MLD'S Burn though.

I guess the first thing is that I need to change my name on the forum. It is a nightmare to spell...I know I can't do it easily.

Samoset...just FYI, I definitely use a different pad system than Pika. The pad pocket is filled with 5 approximately 10 1/4" by 20" by 3/8" thick pads sections duct-taped together so that they fold and unfold like an "accordion". This ends up being a 3/4 length pad for me. When I am carrying less weight, I use the light weight one I made. Carrying over 30 lbs, I use the one I made from high density foam I used backpacking in the 60's. If I feel I need additional insulation or padding, I bring a thermarest roll as well. This combined with the hoop stay has worked well so far with the larger loads.

Sorry about that Skcreidc but not only am I just plain bad with spelling and typing at the same time. I'm horrible with names.

On a post related note I was actually thinking the pad sleeve might not be such a bad idea as I like a ccf pad when I use my Hennessy . But as for as sleeping on the ground I'm a 100% neo air convert .