Backcountry Forum
Backpacking & Hiking Gear

Backcountry Forum
Our long-time Sponsor - the leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear
 
 
 

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#189139 - 02/17/15 09:30 AM Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents
beber Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/15
Posts: 20
I'm sure this has been discussed before but I thought, a few people might be will to talk it over again.

I'm debating back and forth between single and double wall tents. I have an older Eureka Apex 2, which has served me well but is heavy. I like the idea of light weight single wall tents, the Big Agnes Scout and MSR Fast Stash have caught my eye. But I do worry about condensation. I also know there are a lot of double wall tents out there that are much lighter than my old tent, reduce my condensation worries, and are cheaper than the above mentioned single wall tents.

I'm not daring enough yet to jump into the world of tarps, so what are general opinions on single vs double wall tents. Note this will be used for weekend trips not through hiking.


Top
#189140 - 02/17/15 11:05 AM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
You might want to do some more research. For example, there are a lot of great tents, both single and double-wall, made by tarptent.com. All their products are fully enclosed tents with floor and mosquito netting. Many of them use trekking poles for support (multiple use gear!), but if you don't use trekking poles, they sell optional poles to go with the tents. Their designs are well-ventilated, which doesn't completely prevent condensation but certainly helps reduce it. Unlike most double wall tents from US companies, you put the fly up first, with the inner clipped to it, meaning that the inner doesn't get wet when setting up in the rain.

"Free standing" is a bit of a misnomer. First, any tent must be staked down so it won't fly away with the breezes. I once read a hair-raising story about a family camped in Utah canyon country. Their unstaked tent blew over the rim and landed thousands of feet down, with all their gear inside, but fortunately after they had removed their sleeping baby! Second, there are no true "free standing" tents since (at least on all that I've seen) the fly must be staked down.

My last double wall tent had horrible condensation. Its screen door sloped outwards at the bottom, so in even the merest drizzle, I had to close the fly up tight. The resulting condensation on the underside of the fly dripped through the inner tent, leaving puddles on the floor--and, of course, on my sleeping bag. Since then, I've preferrred a single wall tent, so I can reach any condensation to wipe it off. Your Mileage May, of course, Vary.

What's far more important than the number of walls is adequate ventilation to prevent or at least reduce condensation in the first place. It also helps to avoid camping in low-lying places, on grass, or near water, where there is more moisture in the air (thus more dew) and less air movement. Especially watch for a tent door that you can leave open when it's raining, except for mountain thunderstorms in which horizontal rain comes from all directions (those usually don't last very long).

Note: I have no relationship with the above tentmaker except as a satisfied customer. You may also want to look at lightheartgear.com, which also has lots of satisfied customers.


Edited by OregonMouse (02/17/15 12:24 PM)
Edit Reason: addl info
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#189142 - 02/17/15 01:08 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: OregonMouse]
Bill_in_TR Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 23
Loc: Upstate South Carolina
Originally Posted By OregonMouse

Second, there are no true "free standing" tents since (at least on all that I've seen) the fly must be staked down.


OM, as might be expected there are no absolutes. I have a two person dome tent with a fly that covers to within about 8 inches of the ground. The fly on this tent has elastic cords with hooks on it that connect to loops in the tent body at the base of the poles. No staking is required whatsoever. I am sure there are other tents with a similar design. This isn't a tent that very many would take backpacking unless it is a shared load for two people since the tent weighs 6 pounds.

Although I am not advocating not staking your tent to anyone, my tent will truly stand free of any stakes whatsoever. There are such out there.

Top
#189144 - 02/17/15 01:27 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Conceptually, something like the Black Diamond HiLight combines the best of both worlds: simple, free-standing (lacking wind), waterproof-breathable, single-wall shelter. Whether it actually works in filling all those niches depends entirely on the climate in which its used. In a soggy tropical region during monsoon season it would be exactly the wrong tent because rain would eventually defeat the fabric and once wet inside, it will never dry.

Impermeable single-wall tents (freestanding or requiring a dozen stakes) rely on ventilation schemes to dispatch condensation. Whether this works again depends on the local climate and truthfully, I've never used one that can't at some point be overwhelmed by conditions, creating indoor rain. (e.g., Still, cold nights on saturated ground and/or in a basin with a water source.) But the majority of time in the Sierra, where I usually hike, careful site selection and typical dry summer weather mean I can use a Tarptent or a GoLite teepee and stay dry. None of mine are freestanding, though.

Even double-wall can be overwhelmed by conditions and get wet from condensation. Also, nearly all require at least some staking and guying to anchor and separate the fly from the inner canopy, and to prevent flapping in the breeze.

At least you have a few hundred models to pore over.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

Top
#189146 - 02/17/15 02:16 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Originally Posted By beber
I'm sure this has been discussed before but I thought, a few people might be will to talk it over again.

I'm debating back and forth between single and double wall tents. I have an older Eureka Apex 2, which has served me well but is heavy. I like the idea of light weight single wall tents, the Big Agnes Scout and MSR Fast Stash have caught my eye. But I do worry about condensation. I also know there are a lot of double wall tents out there that are much lighter than my old tent, reduce my condensation worries, and are cheaper than the above mentioned single wall tents.

I'm not daring enough yet to jump into the world of tarps, so what are general opinions on single vs double wall tents. Note this will be used for weekend trips not through hiking.



Hike in humid weather? Get a double wall and thank me later. Big Agnes and Tarptent are great brands (I own both brands). Freestanding is pointless unless you set up it up un-staked to see how level the ground is, then you could move it around to get the right feel when you lay. It also kind of cool to lift the tent up freestanding to "shake" stuff out of and off of the tent before breaking it down. Otherwise I have not been turned off by lack of free standing mode for my Tarptent.

Edit: It's worth noting that an adequate ventilated double wall tent will receive its fair share of condensation if you camp on wet grass in wet weather.I tested this at home one night... However, the trick is to have good amount of space between tarp and bug net so water does not run down the net to get your sleeping bag wet, or yourself! I camped on hard frozen soil, not grass, this past December and had ZERO condensation in my double wall tent. There's been nights I had no condensation, but my single walled friend had some moisture build up inside. Site selection is key, but in humid weather I'd take a well ventilated double wall shelter any day. Hike your own hike! cool


Edited by ETSU Pride (02/17/15 02:23 PM)
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

Top
#189147 - 02/17/15 02:44 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: ETSU Pride]
beber Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/15
Posts: 20
Thanks for the input thus far everyone. Lets not get to tied up in semantics. I understand all tents should be staked, "freestanding" or not. I guess I"m debating a traditional dome tent vs. newer single walled tents that use trekking poles and lots of stakes.


Edited by beber (02/18/15 11:41 AM)

Top
#189159 - 02/17/15 09:02 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: OregonMouse]
Outcasthiker Offline
member

Registered: 12/13/10
Posts: 60
Loc: Tennessee
I checked out the http://www.tarptent.com/stratospire2.html . I am impressed, being a hammock camper I know that most tents that have fly's cannot be set up in the rain without getting soaked inside. They have overcome this problem.
_________________________
Never Pass Up a hike!

Top
#189244 - 02/19/15 10:20 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
I own a couple of single walled tents, plus a Gatewood Cape, plus I've slept under a more traditional poncho. Done a lot of nights in single walled tents, so I think I understand their dynamics pretty well.

I've got multiple double-walled tents too. Most are IMO too heavy to want to carry; fine for car camping or similar use.

What I like now is the Lightheart Designs approach, a sort-of double walled tent at more like single-wall tent weight. This design works really well for me, and is in general my go-to tent now, even when I'm not camping in my native ("it gets wet here") Washington state. SMD makes their own clones of the Lightheart design, maybe others do now too (I've not kept up).
_________________________
Brian Lewis
http://postholer.com/brianle

Top
#189250 - 02/20/15 01:07 AM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: BrianLe]
ndwoods Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 572
Loc: Santa Cruz CA, Sierra Hiker
All tents get condensation at times...single or double walled. The advantage of a double walled tent is you can sleep under the stars with no fly and still not have bugs. I love my big agnes seedhouse sl2...the entire top is mosquito netting.
_________________________
http://ndeewoods.com/ and http://wilderstatepark.com/

Top
#189290 - 02/21/15 08:30 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: ndwoods]
beber Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/15
Posts: 20
Thanks everyone. I know a lot of people recomend the cottage brands, and under a lot of circumstances I would probably go with a Tarp Tent. However, my work gives out performance awards in the form of gift cards and I have a few hundred dollars worth to cash in. I can choose REI or Amazon (and others) so that sort of holds me to the main stream. I was debating between the BA Scout UL2 and the BA Fishhook 2. Both are available for around the $200 mark.

I do have an older Eureka Apex, which is a great tent, but heavy.

Top
#189291 - 02/21/15 10:57 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
AdventureMyk Offline
member

Registered: 06/16/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Go REI all day long. Their guarantee's are awesome and there is always that nice check in March if you are a member. smile

Top
#189292 - 02/21/15 11:41 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: AdventureMyk]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
REI brand tents are never quite cutting edge, but their newest tents always borrow liberally from whatever tent design was considered best two years earlier and they generally represent the best value per dollar spent. REI does not make a single wall tent, but their recently revamped Quarterdome series of tents are very decently designed, lightweight and good quality. They also carry MSR and Big Agnes tents, as well as several more brands to choose from.

I use an REI Quarterdome 1 solo tent and am very pleased with it. As AdventureMyk notes, the guarantee and return policy at REI is excellent; it's probably the best thing about them.

Top
#189294 - 02/22/15 12:33 AM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: aimless]
AdventureMyk Offline
member

Registered: 06/16/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Aimless, I meant the gift card. I'm a Big Agnes / Mountain Hardware / Eureka! fan because I have owned and enjoyed them all. That said, the bulk of the better REI tents are frequently in the top-10 lists of reviews even against tents 2-5x their cost. They are, as you said, a heck of a value even if they aren't the absolute lightest nor the most cutting edge.

Top
#189309 - 02/22/15 06:40 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
I like Big Agnes. I don't believe you could go wrong with them. I'd look at all of their tents if I was you, and go with the best one that suits you. My hiking partner has the Fly Creek Platinum that he purchased with accumulation of gift cards to erode out-of-pocket cost. I love my Seedhouse, I just wish Big Agnes made more tents with side door. The Cooper Spur is nice, but it's not their lightest tent. The rear entry does get annoying sometimes on a lot of their models, my Seedhouse including. It's a great tent that has kept me dry and comfortable in nasty weather.


Edited by ETSU Pride (02/22/15 06:41 PM)
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

Top
#189316 - 02/22/15 11:04 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: ETSU Pride]
AdventureMyk Offline
member

Registered: 06/16/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Knoxville, TN
That's one thing I like about my Slater UL3+, it's side and end door, the side having a very large vestibule for a common tent and the end door having a vestibule that's big enough to have a few people play cards underneath and is about half the size of the actual tent in volume. That's a pretty big tent to start with.

The side entry vestibule is a lot larger than it looks in pics. I'd put it as easily large enough to cook under with an MSR micro-rocket stove if it was raining.



And the vestibule chamber is also a good bit larger than it looks in pictures. Large enough that we put all our gear in the Little Joey Chairs inside it along with the cooler, a cooking rack that sits over the camp fire that is set up with more gear on it to keep it dry, etc. etc. and still have plenty of room to get out, cook under it, etc. The pictures are very deceptive.



Edited by AdventureMyk (02/22/15 11:10 PM)

Top
#189318 - 02/23/15 12:15 AM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: AdventureMyk]
beber Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/15
Posts: 20
Originally Posted By AdventureMyk
That's one thing I like about my Slater UL3+, it's side and end door, the side having a very large vestibule for a common tent and the end door having a vestibule that's big enough to have a few people play cards underneath and is about half the size of the actual tent in volume. That's a pretty big tent to start with.


That is an awesome looking tent. I think that would be great for taking my whole family camping, but too much tent and weight for most of my trips. That and its a little too pricy for me, trying to keep it around $200.

The 3 tents that caught my eye were the Big Agnes Fishhook 2, 3 lb 10 oz side entrance, traditional dome tent, with no zipper. For only $179 through Back Country/amazon. (originally $400)

MSR Stash 2 lbs 14 oz, single wall, with an odd sloping shape for $179 through Back Country/ Amazon. (originally $400)

Big Agnes Scout 2, single wall pup tent, weighing 2 lbs, but gets mixed reviews for $225 through Back Country/ Amazon. (originally $300)


Top
#189319 - 02/23/15 12:43 AM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
AdventureMyk Offline
member

Registered: 06/16/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Knoxville, TN
This one is realistically just short of 5lbs with the stakes and all. I won't say it's cheap (About $550 when I got it but I was one of the very first. I saw it for $420 on Backcountry and would buy it again for that in a heartbeat).Price, however, is a much more restrictive issue for most people including myself. I was fortunate at the time to be able to update almost all my gear at once.

Btw, I looked at the BA Scout series (the one with the big vestibule really caught my eye) but like you said, the mixed reviews kind of nixed it. There were a lot more negatives than positives and if I have to go trekking pole I'll go straight to Tarptent.

Weight wise you listed one at 3lbs 10oz, the one I have in the pics is about 1lb heavier. Given that it's half again the tent plus the vestibule from hades it's 1lb very well spent. Can't get around the money though. It's just not a cheap tent since it's virtually new while others have been out for a few years (and are still tops of their class).



Edited by AdventureMyk (02/23/15 12:46 AM)

Top
#189324 - 02/23/15 08:35 AM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
PaHiker Offline
member

Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 144
Loc: Western Pa, USA
Like you, I decided to dump my old tent (Sierra Alpha CD) for 2-1/2 out of 4 seasons (still a great winter tent, and willing to put up with the extra weight). I went with the Sierra Lightning UL for the single-wall construct, and much lighter weight.

I live in SW Pa, where humidity levels rival the southeast (65% is a dry day). That said, with the windows open for the warmer weather I have not noticed any considerable amount of condensation. If I close everything up (never fully closed as the rear window and top of front door are always open) there is a small amount of condensation, but nothing that bothers me in my down bag.
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intent of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!

Top
#189465 - 02/28/15 12:35 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I have slept dry in a single wall tent next to two guys in a double walled tent and they were soaking wet in the morning. Ventilation is required in any tent. grin Be aware that in freezing temps the moisture that passes through an inner tent will freeze under the fly. By having a double walled tent you merely put an extra wall between you and the frost. Breathable single walled tents are nice. Nor are double walled tents necessarily warmer. To be warm, a tent must trap body heat - probably moist heat - so a cold tent will be dryer.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

Top
#189477 - 03/01/15 12:43 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: Jimshaw]
K33F Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/28/14
Posts: 1
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
I have slept dry in a single wall tent next to two guys in a double walled tent and they were soaking wet in the morning. Ventilation is required in any tent. grin Be aware that in freezing temps the moisture that passes through an inner tent will freeze under the fly. By having a double walled tent you merely put an extra wall between you and the frost. Breathable single walled tents are nice. Nor are double walled tents necessarily warmer. To be warm, a tent must trap body heat - probably moist heat - so a cold tent will be dryer.
Jim


From experience, it's more important that the tent is ventilated and dry, than warm. Body heat is lost much quicker from a damp sleep system than a dry system. Moist air provides no insulation at all. Only dry air can do that. So ventilation is vital.

Top
#189478 - 03/01/15 04:36 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
beber Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/15
Posts: 20
Went with the Big Agnes Scout. There certainly are some compromises with this tent, most notably the lack of a vestibule and mesh door. However, it is the lightest 2 person tent for the money that I could find.


Can't wait to try it out for real in a few weeks.



Edited by beber (03/01/15 05:16 PM)

Top
#189497 - 03/02/15 07:50 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: beber]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Congrats. Put it through the water hose test in the backyard before you go out! Then give us a report when you use it! cool
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

Top
#189500 - 03/02/15 11:36 PM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: ETSU Pride]
AdventureMyk Offline
member

Registered: 06/16/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Knoxville, TN
I just gotta ask, did you duct-tape it to the floor? <grin> I love it!

Looking forward to hearing how she works. I was looking at the larger version of the Scout before I got the Slater 3+.

Top
#189503 - 03/03/15 01:38 AM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: ETSU Pride]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Hose test--very good idea! Some years ago I bought a new tent and carefully (I thought) seam sealed it, only to find out in a Colorado cloudburst that I had missed a tiny spot which was, of course, right above my head when I was sleeping. I spent a few similar storms feeling like the Dutch boy with his finger in the dike. Fortunately those storms last only 15-20 minutes!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#189505 - 03/03/15 09:04 AM Re: Single vs. Double Wall free standingTents [Re: AdventureMyk]
beber Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/15
Posts: 20
Originally Posted By AdventureMyk
I just gotta ask, did you duct-tape it to the floor? <grin> I love it!

Looking forward to hearing how she works. I was looking at the larger version of the Scout before I got the Slater 3+.


Thats exactly what I did. I wasn't sure if it would work, but the tape held just fine. My 2 year old son had a blast running in and out of it all afternoon and the tape never pulled.


Edited by beber (03/03/15 09:05 AM)

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
Featured Photos
Spiderco Chaparral Pocketknife
David & Goliath
Also Testing
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
0 registered (), 241 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Noodles, McCrary, DanyBacky, Rashy Willia, WanderBison
13240 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
Backpacking.net
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 

Affiliate Disclaimer: This forum is an affiliate of BackcountryGear.com, Amazon.com, R.E.I. and others. The product links herein are linked to their sites. If you follow these links to make a purchase, we may get a small commission. This is our only source of support for these forums. Thanks.!
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum