Backcountry Forum
Backpacking & Hiking Gear

Backcountry Forum
Our long-time Sponsor - the leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear
 
 
 
Backcountry Gear Clearance and Sale

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
BackcountryGear.com
backcountry gear

---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance


 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

Stay Healthy--Eat Well

MARY JANES FARM ORGANIC MEALS

Mary Janes Farm Organic Backcountry Meals

NATURAL HIGH GOURMET MEALS

Natural High

 

Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#98725 - 06/25/08 12:03 PM OB group missing in the Sierra
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#98726 - 06/25/08 12:13 PM Re: OB group missing in the Sierra [Re: TomD]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
WOW! That is scary, and very unusual! Any unusual weather in the area at the time?

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

Top
#98727 - 06/25/08 06:19 PM Re: OB group missing in the Sierra [Re: midnightsun03]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Found safe and sound; no big drama apparently.
story


Edited by TomD (06/25/08 06:44 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#98728 - 06/25/08 07:46 PM Re: OB group missing in the Sierra [Re: TomD]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
The end of the article points out an important issue that tends to compound searches and make it difficult to isolate a search area. The group had no injuries, so they kept moving, but only they knew which direction they were going. Moving targets can be extremely difficult to find, and the longer they are away from the point last seen, the bigger the search area becomes. This was the same problem searchers had last week in Denali park.

In search theory we have something called "Probability of Area," which is the statistical liklihood that a missing subject will be found in a certain area. We tend to look at maps and try to figure out the most likely route a hiker would take. There are certain behaviors that are statistically more likely for certain categories of missing subjects (kids, experienced hikers, inadvertent hikers, groups, psych patients, etc.), and we combine that with the information we gleen from maps, and then can break a map down into sectors that can be searched, with priority given to the areas of highest probability. The problem is, when people are on the move, it doesn't take long for the probable search area to expand, and within a few days the search area becomes TRW, or "The Rest of the World."

The conundrum becomes, if you're healthy and there is no reason to believe that you can't hike out on your own, why should you stay put? How is a "lost" person to know that a search is coming? There is no easy answer... best thing you can do is leave as many clues as you can to indicate direction of travel, if you decide to try to hike out. Clothing strips tied to trees periodically, cairns, sticks on your trail... all help searchers find you. If you're in a large open area, leave signs large enough to be seen from the air. Those who volunteer on SAR teams go through tons of training just for spotting clues, so don't think a deliberate clue will be missed.

Off my soapbox...

Thanks...

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

Top
#98729 - 06/26/08 12:03 AM Re: OB group missing in the Sierra [Re: midnightsun03]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
MNS, the other interesting thing is that the one guide who went on the scout alone was the one with the sat phone, so the others were apparently without a method of communication.

The other question I have is why the group didn't wait for him to return before taking off. That I really don't understand.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#98730 - 06/26/08 08:25 AM Re: OB group missing in the Sierra [Re: TomD]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Hi Tom...

It makes sense that the solo guide would have the sat phone. When I did OB sat phone technology was only for the military, and cell phones were yet to come into being (this was even pre-car phone days). We were alone in the woods for days with no means of communication. I don't know when OB started carrying sat phones, but I really don't see the fact that they didn't have one as that big a deal. But I agree... why didn't the group wait for the guide to return? Boredom? Teenage energy? Would it have made a difference if they'd waited or would they have still gotten misplaced? Of course they'd have had the sat phone if the third guide was with them, but did they think they were lost? My OB group wandered aimlessly through the woods for most of our 3 week trip - at times we were on trails and at other times we were cross-country. We never considered ourselves hopelessly lost, even though at one point we were most definitely in the wrong place and off the maps we had with us. So, I don't know if the outcome would have been any different had they waited for the third guide to return.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

Top
#98731 - 06/26/08 10:07 AM Re: OB group missing in the Sierra [Re: midnightsun03]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
I agree, the sat phone may or may not have been helpful, but leaving a group member behind to fend for himself, even if he was a guide, doesn't seem like a good idea.

In a reported incident in Arthur's Pass in NZ a few years ago, a small group left one of them behind to fend for herself, then reported her missing. Granted, this person wasn't a guide, but even more reason not to leave someone alone.

Btw, February is summer down there, so the temps wouldn't have been that bad but AP is known for wild weather , which I have seen firsthand and no place for an inexperienced hiker on their own.

Here is the SAR report posted on the AP website-

An inexperienced female tramper "abandoned" by her tramping companions in the Harper River became lost in the Long Creek area. Her companions reported her lost to Arthur's Pass Police late Monday(28-02) evening. A team consisting of Arthur's Pass Rescue and Arthur's Pass Police commenced a foot search of the Lagoon Saddle track at first light discovering the lost tramper in Lagoon Saddle hut. Her condition was that of dehydration because her companions had told her that ALL NZ water needed boiling before consumption, and they had been carrying all the cooking equipment when they abandoned her. We recommended she find new friends!

ps. their belief about boiling the water is totally untrue.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#98732 - 06/26/08 02:52 PM Re: OB group missing in the Sierra [Re: TomD]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
TomD
"They were reported missing to authorities on Tuesday, two days after the group missed a rendezvous with a third guide. That guide had separated from the group Sunday to scout a possible climb. When he returned to the prearranged meeting point, the group wasn't there, Mushovic said."
__________________________________________

So one guide left the group. He returned to a prearranged spot and no one was there. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Was this a different spot than where he left the group? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> He may well have been the most experienced guide and the others simply couldn't find the rendevous point, and continued on without him, knowing that they WERE lost and the Guide would be able to take care of himself. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Its some pretty BIG country up around Florence Lake. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> If you miss a side canyon trail, it could be a long way out. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

As MNS said - simply not knowing where you are doesn't necesarily mean that you're "Lost". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

Top
#98733 - 06/27/08 12:24 PM Re: OB group missing in the Sierra [Re: Jimshaw]
lv2fsh Offline
member

Registered: 04/27/08
Posts: 111
Loc: socal
I've been misplaced and taken the "long" way a time or two but never lost. That being said, splitting up is should be well thought out before under taking and we don't know who left who.

Top

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Bivvy Sack combo Arrangement
by Jim M
10/18/17 01:58 AM
what is the lightest framed backpack around 40L
by toddfw2003
10/16/17 07:23 PM
a worthy challenger to the msr pocket rocket2
by the-gr8t-waldo
10/16/17 01:28 PM
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Napa Fires
by balzaccom
10/11/17 07:43 PM
Backpacking the Ouachita Trail thanksgiving
by toddfw2003
10/05/17 11:54 PM
Rockfalll on El Capitan in Yosemite
by balzaccom
09/28/17 09:47 AM
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
lightest grommets to use
by toddfw2003
Today at 06:13 PM
alcohol stove comparisons
by Bike_packer
10/03/17 08:56 PM
Can footprint plasticizer harm tent ground-sheet?
by Weston1000
09/10/17 02:24 AM
Featured Photos
Breakneck Ridge, New York
May 2012 Eclipse, Lassen Park
New Years Eve 2011
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
2 registered (), 36 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Sean&Brit, Blackbuzzard, LivelyLiz, Weve, Tones21
12425 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
HOME
Backpacking.net
Family Hiking
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Outdoor Gear Daily Deals
Outlets, Sales, Bargains

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum.com