On a recent trip I used some Katadyn purification tablets which my daughter had given me. A strange thing which I had not noticed when using Aqua Mira was that the tablets seemed to clarify the water. The area had heavy tannin stain and looked like weak tea. After a while the tannin stain seemed to go away and the water was viably clearer. I just thought that it was interesting. The water probably was not any purer but it looked better.

I was a little hesitant to use the tablets because they state 4 hour contact time but by planning ahead I managed to get water enough most of the time. I just added the tablets in the evening and used that water the next day. Unfortunately in some areas this did not work due to the distance between water sources so I still ended up using the Aqua Mira a couple of times.

Gord,
The four hour contact time for the Katydyn Micropur tablets is required only if Cryptosporidium is present and is the same contact time, or less, than required for Crypto with all other water purification chemicals. For most other organisms, the contact time is more on the order of 15-30 minutes depending on temperature.

The free chlorine released from the tablets acts as a bleach and is the likely reason your water lost some of its organic color; pretty much the same thing that happens to skid marks on underwear when you use Chlorox. If you have heavily colored water with likely contamination, I would use a double dose of the Micropur since some of its anti-microbial potential is used up in making the water pretty.

Why would you think that Aqua Mira's contact time would be any less? In fact, Aqua Mira is based on the same chemical as Katadyn; it's just that Katadyn can actually say that it will kill crypto; look at the Aqua Mira literature and see what it says it will kill.

What you experienced with clarity is telling me is that the formula strength of Aqua Mira is not nearly the same as Katadyn, which is another indication of a reason to go with a product that can legally make the claims about killing the nasties we may encounter.

Since as pointed out that you might want to use a stronger mixture with this kind of water, that is testimony to the use of the MIOX since it has testing strips to ensure that the proper levels of chemicals are in the water you are treating.

Also, if you read the literature for the tablets closely, you'll see that the 4-hour dwell time is for cold, dirty water and Crypto. For most situations, half an hour is completely adequate.

GrumpyGord:

Micropur tablets and AM liquids use identical active ingredients: chlorine dioxide. If you read the ingredients, you will note that Micropur has 3 times the concentration of chlorine dioxide. So:

1. Micropur is EPA registered and is allowed to advertise effectiveness against all three classes of baddies: viruses, bacteria, and protozoa (crypto, giardia, etc.). Treatment times are 15 minutes for the first two -- and 30 minutes to 4HOURS for the third -- depending on water temp (the colder, the longer).

2. A.M. being a weaker solution cannot obtain EPA registration and is NOT allowed to mention either viruses or protozoa! If you read the AM packaging, you will note that ONLY bacteria is mentioned -- along with the shorter treatment time.

3. When I talked to an A.M. rep -- she said I could replicate Micropur's efficacy against protozoa by simply quadrupling the dosage. Mathematically, it should be tripling, but she said quadrupling. Be it 3 or 4 times, that makes AM both slower to use (counting drops, 5-min mixing period, etc.) -- and more expensive!

4. Finally, just last year, A.M. came out with its own tablets! Interestingly, if you ignore the A.M. labeling and just compare the packaging and ingredient percentages -- they are identical to Micropur! And both are made in Spain. I am willing to bet it's the same factory making the tablets for both brands!

Ben stay on top of this, maybe you'll find the tablet source we can buy cheaper!

You want cheap, give it time -- they will eventually be made in........China -- like with everything else! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't begrudge things being made in China Ben. I just want the factory managers to be held accountable for producing shoddy goods if that becomes an issue. With something as important to our health as water purification we can't have substitutes, it's gotta be the genuine thing. It's not a camera battery it's your family and our freinds lives on the trails we're discussing here.

Shoddy stuff can and does come from all over the World including right here in the USA; so I'm not knocking any specific Country. I have a friend with 2 businesses in China, Mark gives me an ear ful about stuff when we connect on the phone. He had to scrap 10 30ft <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> sailboats because instead of using lead in the keels of the boats the factory manager filled them with cement, poured a lead cap over the cement, and tried to pass them off as 'to spec'. Mark took one out over there for a sail, and promptly sank it within one hour after it capzied offshore <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Needless to say, as the designer and engineer he knew right away what the problem was and fired the production manager. That got everyone 's attention in the factory, and production QC went above 100%. Mark had tried to get me over there to act as his agent in the plant; but it's too different a culture for me. I actually tried to get Jason Klass to take the job back then, but he was happy in CO <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Less expensive quality tablets for water purification should come along as demand increases along with production capabilities and companies like AM and Micrropur fight for market share <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Veering off topic...

In my view, the brands can have their products made wherever and however they wish. Regardless, I hold them responsible for everything associated with their brands/products -- be it design, materials, workmanship, pricing, or after-sales support.

However they choose to do it, I expect the brands/companies to ensure the quality of their products -- regardless of whether they were made in Shanghai or Seattle. If certain brands/companies choose to cut cost so drastically that they pick the cheapest factories (be they US or foreign) and then skimp on quality inspection -- then the fault lies with those particular brands/companies -- period.

Your friend Mark did the right thing by doing on-site inspections. Too many companies outsource, bank the cost savings, then bury their heads in the sand, hoping either things will come out alright -- or the consumers won't notice. Yeah, we notice. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Didn't Katadyn used to have that chart on their website showing the times to kill the various bugs? I no longer see it or can find it.

Yeah, I copied that chart... but can't find it any longer. Now, Katadyn simply states the maximum time.

Well, let me add to these items to the fire. Remember the people that died last year because some ...pensive Heparin? The FDA didn't catch that one because we assume that when you ask for a chemical, that's what you're going to get - not some cheaper work-alike substitute. Therefore we don't test all our imports.

Then there's the lead paint on kids toys. You know, the stuff that leads to brain dysfunction because the kids chew on the toys? Those US companies ordered lead-free paint but they got leaded paint anyway. Only from China.

How about melamine-contaminated dog food? Antifreeze in cough syrup? We haven't even begun to determine the toll of Chinese counterfeit components. I happen to own two wireless earpieces for my phone that have never worked properly - both are counterfeit Chinese imports. They look just like the real item - you don't see the difference until you crack open their cases. I really pity the poor slob with a Chinese-made pacemaker or insulin pump.

I could go on and on - the thing that most of us don't remember is that China is still a communist country. They have serious problems with quality control because every peon is looking for a way to divert a little of the money into their own pocket. This is the same problem the former Soviet Union had. There's so much corruption in Chinese companies that you will NEVER get to the bottom of any of the travesties cited above. That's why I'd have to say I sincerely hope that what I'm putting in my body NEVER comes from China until something quite drastic changes over there.

You obviously haven't been to China. You should visit -- and you'll realize just how badly your 1950's version of China needs updating.

We all compete in the world -- economically. The only time America has ever lost are the times when its people fell asleep on the switch -- i.e. when they become ignorant of others. America practically lost its auto industry when supposedly "cheap" Japanese cars suddenly showed up as anything but. Ditto with electronics in the 1980's and 90's. We've managed to hold on -- but ignorance about our competitors is no bliss.

China has a whole slew of under-handed, unethical, and/or downright sloppy factories. I can find a few in our own country too. But I wouldn't paint a whole entire country a uniform black because of this. Look at some of your high-end Mountain Hardwear, Sierra Designs, Marmot or TNF stuff -- they too are likely made in China.

Folks who have no first hand experience are ever too quick to broadbrush -- based on the media reports they get. They don't know any better. But they should give it an effort.

If you want to see something really weird, put an iodine tab in water and then pour it into a titanium cup. It turns the water blue!

I take the Katadyn tabs for emergency only when I go in an area where I do not expect to treat the water. If I go in an area where I know I will have to treat all my non-boiled water I use iodine tabs with a neutralizer. When I do use the Katadyn tabs, I throw a couple in a liter of water - because if I ever treat water - it is really yucky! Good to know, though, that I should throw in 4 tabs!

Unfortunately, iodine won't kill crypto and is almost useless in very cold water. Iodine is potentially more harmful to humans than chlorine dioxide as well and can cause severe problems for pregnant women and folks that have iodine allergies. Iodine will also kill the natural flora in the intestines that are essential for digesting food. Iodine will also degrade over time and is completely ineffective if the open bottle is older than a year. The neutralizer is really vitamin C tablets and if they're put in the water too soon, the iodine will be neutralized and won't have a chance to kill the bad stuff. MicroPur is a far more effective means of water purification than iodine and much safer. It also tastes much better if the right dose is administered.

You should only need one tablet of MicroPur per liter in most backcountry water sources. The 4 doses are for Aqua Mira, not the Katadyn's MicroPur tablets. PLEASE do not put in 4 tablets of MicroPur in a liter of water! It will taste terrible and is not necessary (no wonder you don't like MicroPur)! If your a healthy adult that doesn't get sick often, truthfully you will only need one tablet per liter.

It is interesting to note that Potable Aqua's Chlorine Dioxide tablets come from the same factory in Italy as MicroPur and, apparently, Aqua Mira's.

Jason:

That was my reaction as well -- peculiar to favor iodine over chlorine dioxide!

Curious... the MSR Sweetwater Purifier solution -- what's the active ingredient(s) there -- and concentration?

BTW -- trivia for the day -- the chlorine dioxide tablets are made in Spain actually. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the information. Since I rarely filter or purify any of my water, I guess I have not over-dosed yet! The water quality is excellent in most of the places I backpack. The Katadyn tabs are so nice, easy and light weight, I am glad they are still considered OK. The iodine habit is a hold-over from the days before chlorine tabs. Many times it is a matter of availability - often I am in places where the stores only carry iodine.

Another question? Do the tabs deteriorate with time? I noticed that iodine tabs seem to disintigrate if several years old. Are the chlorine tabs subject to deterioration?

WD,

If your current routine prevents digestive distress then you should keep on using it. You may have built a tolerance for many bad bugs.

There is a danger that you will become less careful over time when your system works, but I think that is less of a problem for those of us that are creatures of habit. OK, borderline OCD. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Actually, it was the right window, but after consideration I'll leave this one alone <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Man, I'm losing it! Full disclosure, I really didn't look at the Potable Aqua's packaging to see where it was made and just echoed from a previous post that the tablets were made in Italy. I was told by the sales manager at WPC (Potable Aqua is one of their brands) that they are all made in the same factory and so it really doesn't matter which brand you buy, there all the same. I'll check before I make any claims next time... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The MSR Sweetwater's Viral Stop solution is really a simple solution of diluted Sodium Hypochlorite (common bleach). It was engineered to have just the right amount of concentration so as to take care of the weak viruses but not leave any taste behind. The idea is that after the water is filtered most of the big bugs (protozoa including giardia and chrypto) are gone. Most of the bacteria are also filtered along with any viruses attached to the bacteria and protozoa. However, there are a few free-floating very weak viruses that could potentially "survive" long enough to attach themselves to a human cell in the body, quickly replicating. By adding 5 drops per liter AFTER filtering and letting it sit for appox. 5 minutes will easily take care of these and will make the water purified under the EPA's definition (99.9999%). Only those with the most sensitive taste buds will detect a slight chlorine taste (better than most tap water). Viral Stop should NEVER be used as a stand alone treatment as it will not kill giardia or chrypto.

Iodine was the standard for several decades, and is still widely used today. NOLS, until recently, used iodine for appox. 40 years with their students. Many of the old timers who have used iodine for many years have built up an immunity and I constantly hear their arguments that they've never gotten sick from using it. However, if your system isn't used to iodine, it could potentially cause problems, especially if used over the course of 2 weeks or more. Much of the backcountry water that has little human influence can be treated successfully using iodine. It does work against low concentrations of giardia, but isn't as effective as chorine dioxide.

It is true that iodine will degrade over time. Potable Aqua, considered the standard for iodine tablets, recommends that you not use a year-old open bottle. If you have an unopened bottle, it should be good for 3-4 years.

Chlorine Dioxide does have a shelf life of about 5 years, although it should be effective even after this time period. The makers of the tablets recommend that you replace after 5 years on the shelf.

I feel I need to plug the MIOX here because it doesn't have a shelf life (other than the lithium battery life which is approx. 10 years). Every time you operate it, you make a fresh chemical. It is also a "mixed oxidant solution" meaning it has more than just chlorine dioxide in the resultant chemical (hypochloris acid, hydrogen peroxide, chorine dioxide, ozone, sodium hypochoride, chlorine, etc.). These are known as "radical" oxidants because they have a very short half-life. After the chemical is made it can be used only for about 9 days until it is ineffective. The best time to use the solution is immediately after it is made. The fresher the chemical, the more potent it is.

Chlorine Dioxide tablets are very potent because they need to be in order so that they will be effective after several years. Because of this, they are potentially harmful if swallowed. The EPA mandates that the tablets have a child-proof container due to the danger they pose to children (the wrapper must be cut with scissors or a knife). However, the MIOX solution is completely safe and is non-toxic. In fact you can use it as a topical solution if a person experiences a wound or a severe cut. If you ingest the raw solution, it will taste nasty, but will pose no risk. Both iodine and chlorine dioxide can be poisonous and even lethal to some people. Always treat them as poisonous meaning if someone swallows an iodine or chlorine dioxide pill that they immediately begin to consume fluids and they be taken to a doctor if possible. It is highly unlikely that someone will die from ingesting a pill (i.e. a Potable Aqua has 1/10 of the lethal dose of iodine per bottle for a normal healthy adult; Polar Pure Iodine Crystals does have a lethal dose per bottle), but it can make a person fill ill and be harmful. I found this on the chlorine dioxide package: CAUTION: Corrosive. irreversible eye damage and skin burns. Harmful if absorbed through skin. Harmful if swallowed. This, when comparing the different chemical disinfectants, and in the case of really bad water not knowing the amount of chemical added is sufficient to kill the bugs is chlorine dioxide's only major disadvantages (MIOX uses test strips in the case of very bad water to tell you if you've added enough chemical).

Ok Jason, riddle us this....Why don't you set up a group buy on those CO2 tabs be they 'Potable Aqua', 'Katadyn', or 'Micro Pur', for everyone here that would like a quantity buy <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Say there would have to be a minimum per person of X packages. I don't know if all the companies involved repackage the tabs in the same quantities per package, but it could be determined easy enough. Then folks could order in multiples of say, 100 tabs, or whatever number corollates to the packing size of the brand. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

That is if the tabs don't deteriorate like idodine or have 'use by dates' like on AM <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How many come per box/case? Work off those numbers and folks could really get a discount <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> If lots of folks here are using these tabs now vs filters for trips it would make economic sense to ask....so I'm asking <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Man that's the truth. Those little buggers are impossible to get out without a knife or scissors. I keep a knife hanging on pack just to open those little packages. On top of the packaging hassle, they are small, easy to drop, tablets.

But they work good and they don't yeuck-up the water taste like iodine.

I bought a package of the Micropur tablets at a small bp/kayak/ski store, $8.95. Last year I balked at the price, this year, I'll give them a try to cut weight.

Can I just pop a tab or two into my Camel unbottle without hurting it?