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#97533 - 06/05/08 05:26 PM New post on water filters
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
I am making this a "new post" because I took some pains to list some relevant links, and I think it is a potentially interesting, though certainly not new, topic for debate.
-------

The most widely known article debunking microbiology hazards in backcountry water was published in various updated versions over a period of years by Robert Rockwell. A version published in May 2002 is found here:

http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htm

Take a close look at the long list of citations at the bottom of the article. This is not just some loopy guy's opinion. A number of the cited articles are available on the Web.

Rockwell believes that water filters have no value in the Sierra Nevada, and by implication, also, in many other areas.

It's unhelpful to say that science is of no value because some scientists are liars, or that they make mistakes. Generically speaking, science is collaborative and depends on repeating the results obtained by others.

The data in this item http://www.wemjournal.org/pdfserv/i1080-6032-006-02-0162.pdf used reporting and data from 48 state health departments. To simply say that somebody, somewhere, might be a liar, or has "no experience" is completely unreasonable.

As for diseases other than giardiasis, typically one measures coliform bacteria as a proxy for infectious disease. So these measurements cover all your bases: http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/DerletWater.htm

Robert Derlet of UC Davis School of Medicine is slightly more conservative that Rockwell about the efficacy of backcountry water treatment, but in essence, he says the much same thing.

After he discusses the science, Derlet, who has made a study of Sierra Nevada water quality for a number of years, presents his personal bottom line:

"Should you treat your water to kill bacteria? This is a personal decision, and depends on the risk the individual wishes to take. I believe the risk is low and treat my water in only two situations: 1) below cow and sheep pastures; and 2) in slow flowing, warm streams immediately below places humans may be swimming or bathing."

I note that it ought to be easy to avoid these two types of sources specified by Derlet, while relying on other sources.

Myself, I own and use a water filter but whether I take it along or not depends on where I'm going. Though my outdoor resume is unavailable, let me mention that in nearly forty years of lots and lots of camping, for the most part, I've never treated water.

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#97534 - 06/06/08 12:31 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: johndavid]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
J&D,

Maybe you should have titled your post "New Post on Water TREATMENT" as many like myself no longer use filters but use UV pans like my SteriPen Adventurer and/or chlorine dioxide liquid or tablets.

I'll continue to backpack in the Sierras and other western WITH my UV pen and Chlorine dioxide tabs as backup.

Having said that I'll second the 1st report's caution regarding personal hygene for toilet and dish washing purposes. In support of that caution I will say that I feel using hand sanitizer is virtually mandatory on any backpacking trip, summer or winter. Short of that good ol' soap & water is my second choice. And finally, in the spirit of the dictum, "The solution to pollution is dilution." you can just rinse your hands like mad if you have no other means to clean up.

Hand cleaning in our North American culture(s) seems like a no-brainer. Probably 90% of us do it properly. Kids & careless teenagers (are there any other kind?) are the largest part of that "unclean 10%". BUT, dishwashing can be a bad culprit as well. I had a Canadian buddy who, on a long canoe trip, would NOT dishwash with biodegradable suds, even far from the river. Plus his "washing" was so ineffectual that I had to constantly re-wash cookware for the safety of the group.

As anyone who has been on long wilderness trips knows, "little" problems like this can lead to big "expedition fever" blowups - even to the breakup of a group midway in the trip. Fortunately this did not happen as others in the group prevailied upon my buddy to let me do the dishes my way for their peace of mind.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#97535 - 06/06/08 01:20 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: 300winmag]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Quote:
Hand cleaning in our North American culture(s) seems like a no-brainer. Probably 90% of us do it properly. Kids & careless teenagers (are there any other kind?) are the largest part of that "unclean 10%".Eric


Careful, my friend, you are confusing what people say with what they actually do (or don't do). According to this article:

Fully 92% of Americans say they wash their hands after using toilet
Only 77% of Americans actually do -- upon observation.

Now you know where the term filthy liar came from! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#97536 - 06/06/08 02:57 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: johndavid]
ronin Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 41
Quote:
I am making this a "new post" because I took some pains to list some relevant links,

Yes, you did. TAM!

Quote:
and I think it is a potentially interesting, though certainly not new, topic for debate.

I agree 100%

Quote:
The most widely known article debunking microbiology hazards in backcountry water

Ooops .... disagree. Big Time!
1) What exactly is being "debunked?" It's a *fact* that water contamination exists.
2) Due to the nature (no pun intended) of water source contamination, the article is *practically* worthless.
2a) Contamination may happen at any time, anywhere.
2b) What was valid during the study period(s) is unlikely to apply to today's risks.

Quote:
Take a close look at the long list of citations at the bottom of the article. This is not just some loopy guy's opinion. A number of the cited articles are available on the Web.

Tsk, tsk, johndavid .... i've already made it clear that "scientific consensus" is not a definitive tool for determining the validity of any particular theory.

Quote:
Rockwell believes that water filters have no value in the Sierra Nevada, and by implication, also, in many other areas.

Wrong again:
A) As above (#2b), not necessarily true today. E.g. how much has wildlife and usage increased since then?
B) Conditions in the Sierras do not necessarily apply in other locations. Mountainous, or otherwise.

Quote:
It's unhelpful to say that science is of no value because some scientists are liars, or that they make mistakes. Generically speaking, science is collaborative and depends on repeating the results obtained by others.

A Straw Man argument.

"1) I said nor implied no such thing. 2) Context johndavid, context. Within the context profit making, we know for a fact that "liars sho do figger." 3) Do you deny that #2 is the case?"

And: "Do you deny that scientists make mistakes?"

And: "Or [may be] engaged in deception? E.g., should I refer you to the marketing methods used by Steripen when they first appeared on the scene? Just ask. ;-)"

And: "...scientists make mistakes and lie, cheat and steal just like other human beings. As for peer review and re .... again, generally speaking .... widely accepted (ie, after peer review, a consensus was reached) scientific truths have been found wanting or simply bogus again and again over the centuries.

...Let's agree that the water treatment options we have available when used as directed will perform as claimed and move on. OK?"

My reply to you remains unanswered. I am disappointed in you. You can do better. Please try again.

Quote:
To simply say that somebody, somewhere, might be a liar, or has "no experience" is completely unreasonable.

Whom are you quoting? I don't recall anyone claiming that any such thing?

Quote:
As for diseases other than giardiasis, typically one measures coliform bacteria as a proxy for infectious disease.

A patently false methodology for testing the efficacy of water treatment methods and filters in general. As well as being of little value when considering other common contaminants.

Quote:
Robert Derlet of UC Davis School of Medicine is slightly more conservative that Rockwell about the efficacy of backcountry water treatment, but in essence, he says the much same thing.

Do they deny that backcountry water sources may be contaminated and that proper water treatment may reduce or eliminate said contaminants?

Quote:
After he discusses the science, Derlet,

Science of dubious, if any, value as I noted above.

Quote:
who has made a study of Sierra Nevada water quality for a number of years,

This fact alone makes the study virtually useless, as I noted above.

Quote:
"Should you treat your water to kill bacteria? This is a personal decision, and depends on the risk the individual wishes to take. I believe the risk is low and treat my water in only two situations: 1) below cow and sheep pastures; and 2) in slow flowing, warm streams immediately below places humans may be swimming or bathing."

Then I submit to you that he is a fool and nothing he says should be trusted. There are many other sources of water contamination which may occur anywhere and at any time unbeknownst to the water user.

For a "so called" scientist to advise us that water treatment is pretty much unnecessary and to imply that there are only two situations where one should treat water is bloody well irresponsible!

Quote:
I note that it ought to be easy to avoid these two types of sources specified by Derlet, while relying on other sources.

This statement is so ridiculous that I think you're just trolling. Sorry, but you do this kind of thing often enough johndavid.

Quote:
Though my outdoor resume is unavailable, let me mention that in nearly forty years of lots and lots of camping, for the most part, I've never treated water.

Personally I couldn't care less if you've never hiked at all. 2+2=4. It doesn't matter if Einstein says it or a 4 year old child.

What matters is that your arguments .... don't hold water.

Peace,

Richard.

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#97537 - 06/06/08 03:10 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: 300winmag]
ronin Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 41
Quote:
J&D,

Maybe you should have titled your post "New Post on Water TREATMENT" as many like myself no longer use filters but use UV pans like my SteriPen Adventurer and/or chlorine dioxide liquid or tablets.

Based on his prior posts on the topic it looks to like johndavid is setting up a Straw Man argument by attempting to limit the topic to water filters.

Quote:
I'll continue to backpack in the Sierras and other western WITH my UV pen and Chlorine dioxide tabs as backup.

No offense but it seems silly to me to bring CL02 and a Steripen. Why not sell the Steripen and buy a ton of CL02 tabs?

BTW, Steripen used unethical marketing methods when they first placed the product on the market. And now their QA is in serious doubt due to the many credible reports of failures.

WTS, I do own a classic. I use it for travel. Hotel water, and re.

But that's probably OT so i'll move on.

Quote:
Having said that I'll second the 1st report's caution regarding personal hygene for toilet and dish washing purposes.

Abso-effin-lutely!

Quote:
In support of that caution I will say that I feel using hand sanitizer is virtually mandatory on any backpacking trip, summer or winter. Short of that good ol' soap & water is my second choice. And finally, in the spirit of the dictum, "The solution to pollution is dilution." you can just rinse your hands like mad if you have no other means to clean up.

Good advice as a rule. I'll add that benzethonium chloride and benzalkonium chloride appear to be the best. I suggest washing w/copious amounts of water, then drying one's hands first. Note; a little BTC or BAC goes a long way. Do not rinse off. Let it dry normally and it'll keep on working.

Quote:
BUT, dishwashing can be a bad culprit as well.

Thx for the reminder. Doesn't apply to me because I no longer use dishes.

Peace,

Richard.

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#97538 - 06/07/08 10:03 AM Re: New post on water filters [Re: ronin]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Ronin:

Your posts are amusing but I think you may have invented a new branch of science, of which you are the sole practioner. Maybe you could found a peer-reviewed journal.

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#97539 - 06/07/08 10:54 AM Re: New post on water filters [Re: ronin]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Quote:
No offense but it seems silly to me to bring CL02 and a Steripen. Why not sell the Steripen and buy a ton of CL02 tabs?

A lot of us don't like the taste of water that has been chemically treated. I much prefer either filtered water or water treated with UV to water that tastes as though it was dipped from a swimming pool. Unfortunately, mechanical and electronic gadgets will malfunction. I think that most people who carry filters or Steripens carry some sort of chemical backup. I carried iodine tablets (bleech) or ClO2 tabs when I was carrying a filter; I carry chlorine dioxide tabs now that I carry a Steripen.

Quote:
BTW, Steripen used unethical marketing methods when they first placed the product on the market. And now their QA is in serious doubt due to the many credible reports of failures.


Would you care to provide some documentation for these assertions. I am not aware of unethical marketing nor am I aware of abnormal problems with quality. Normally, it is considered good form to back up personal assertions with credible scientific reports rather than to just state what comes across as your opinion.

I have used a Steripen Adventurer for two years now and have had no problem at all with either function or GI disease; I think there are many others on this forum who will say the same thing if asked.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#97540 - 06/07/08 03:46 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: johndavid]
ronin Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 41
Quote:
Ronin:

Your posts are amusing but I think you may have invented a new branch of science, of which you are the sole practioner. Maybe you could found a peer-reviewed journal.


Thx johndavid; I find your posts entertaining also (and informative). But sometimes I do feel that you're just trying to get a rise out of us.

Peace,

Richard.

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#97541 - 06/07/08 04:28 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: ronin]
Spock Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 679
Loc: Central Texas
A large percentage - some surveys get around 25 percent- of AT thruhikers do not treat their water at all and another 10 to 15 percent use only mild treatments such as household bleach or iodine tablets that are not considered effective against giardia cysts. Others treat "as needed" which means when the water is suspect for some unspecified, probably subjective, reason. The incidence of true giardia on the AT is low regardless of treatment method, although hikers often call common tourista "giardia" not knowing the difference. One may assume they have been brainwashed. Me, I use bleach when the watershed of a source seems open to contamination. No trouble in 6 trail months over the last 11 months.

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#97542 - 06/07/08 04:37 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: Pika]
ronin Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 41
Quote:

A lot of us don't like the taste of water that has been chemically treated.

Of course. And some prefer Coke (at least those who have good taste). [j/k]

I have heard many speak of an after taste and when speaking of anything other than Micropur I heartily agree. But no one i've ever given a drink to (plain treated water) has ever mentioned it. And i've never noticed it either. Perhaps it's simply that your taste buds are more sensitive than some others? Or maybe you don't let the container air prior to taking a swig? You seem knowledgeable so i'll assume that you're using the product as recommended.

Quote:
Unfortunately, mechanical and electronic gadgets will malfunction. I think that most people who carry filters or Steripens carry some sort of chemical backup.

That's been my experience also. Which is why I simply choose MP1.

Quote:
Would you care to provide some documentation for these assertions.

You'll have to either take my word for it or take a long look around the Internet. The Internet never forgets.

It's been a long time since Steripen came on the market; I no longer have documentation. But I also never (well, seldom [chuckle]) forget egregious conduct.

Quote:
I am not aware of unethical marketing


Would you consider deceiving the public into thinking that the initial factory "special" price (if you buy one now prior to public release) of $200.00 was a limited time offer and then denying that the $200.00 was going be the MSRP available to the public after release .... unethical? I did and still do.

The president of Steripen at the time was quite active on line and I chatted with him about pricing (among other things, ***below). He insisted that the "special" price was for a limited time and not the true MSRP.

Which of course turned out to be BS. As I knew then, the actual price was indeed going to be $200.

I also pointed out there would be discounts available (again i was right; $180, iirc) at the usual outlets almost immediately. Of course the price dropped in what I considered a faster period than most electronic products.

Would you also consider attempting to hide the fact that embedded particulate (e.g., cloudy water) matter was a problem inherent to the design and that filtration was indeed required for anything other than clear water .... unethical? I did and still do. Of course now Steripen specifically address the issue.

***The president and I also chatted about particulate matter hiding and/or shielding contaminants. First he tried to deny that it was a problem inherent to the Steripen design. Then he simply ignored me when I pointed out that the fact was irrefutable and that a filter would be required if one uses a Steripen for most of the backcountry hiking people do. Ergo: A Steripen would be redundant if one also carried a filtration device. Of course today Steripen have admitted the problem exists and offer a (lousy, imho) filter as OEM.

Quote:
nor am I aware of abnormal problems with quality.

Failures (recent) of new and nearly new Steripens have been widely reported in TrailJournals and on the AT board. Specially in re the Adventurer.

Don't take my word for anything! Please look it up for yourself then make up your own mind.

Quote:
Normally, it is considered good form to back up personal assertions with credible scientific reports

Whose scientific reports? Steripens? Others with a vested interest in outdoor products? E.g. those whose livelihood partially depends on selling Steripens? Johndavid and I already went round and round on this one. Just look at the water filter thread he started on this site.

Quote:
rather than to just state what comes across as your opinion.

[chuckle] Of course you know I have every right to state my opinion.

Quote:
I have used a Steripen Adventurer for two years now and have had no problem at all with either function or GI disease; I think there are many others on this forum who will say the same thing if asked.


I am glad that you are satisfied. And I am sure there are many who are likewise satisfied. That is good. It also good to point out that although figures don't lie .... liars do figure. And when it comes to profit making there's a lot of figuring going on.

Side Issue: I also know for a fact that it is virtually impossible to prove that the Steripen may have been the proximate cause of *any* GI discomfort. Although I will point out that it also applies to every other water treatment method I know of.

But as is readily apparent .... folks are quick to take umbrage when a product they use is criticized. They behave as if they had been personally attacked. Ridiculous!

Peace,

Richard.

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#97543 - 06/07/08 07:43 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: ronin]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I was mostly trying to tell you why some people prefer water treated with either a filter or a Steripen. I think I answered the question you asked well enough.

I also felt, and stated, that your case against Steripen was not documented. You were dissing the firm but did not provide any evidence to back up your claim. You still have not provided any. It is not my responsibility to look up evidence to support your claim; it is yours to provide it. Otherwise, you just sound like someone with a grudge against Steripen.

As for your statement

Quote:
But as is readily apparent .... folks are quick to take umbrage when a product they use is criticized. They behave as if they had been personally attacked


If you say so, but I think it is

Quote:
Ridiculous!


I also use Micropur, iodine, bleach and the MSR Sweetwater depending on what I am about, my financial state and what I have to carry; so do many others. I don't feel that any of these products, including Steripen, are beyond criticism. I also feel that MP1 is the best of the chemical treatments available even though it requires 4 hours against Cryptosporidium. I do note, however, that you seem a little defensive about your choice of Micropur.

Quote:
That's been my experience also. Which is why I simply choose MP1.


Quote:
I have heard many speak of an after taste and when speaking of anything other than Micropur I heartily agree. But no one i've ever given a drink to (plain treated water) has ever mentioned it. And i've never noticed it either. Perhaps it's simply that your taste buds are more sensitive than some others? Or maybe you don't let the container air prior to taking a swig? You seem knowledgeable so i'll assume that you're using the product as recommended.


In sum, yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But, to be credible, you should be prepared to document your assertions.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#97544 - 06/08/08 01:37 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: Pika]
ronin Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 41
Quote:
...did not provide any evidence to back up your claim. You still have not provided any. It is not my responsibility to look up evidence to support your claim; it is yours to provide it. Otherwise, you just sound like someone with a grudge against Steripen.

You're welcome to do as you will. I'm really not interested in wether or not you believe me. [shrug]

Of course I have a grudge against Steripen. A justifiable grudge.

Over time Steripen have admitted past errors in deed if not outright. And some of their products are worthwhile enough that I own some. But I do watch them more carefully than I might other companies w/a better history/reputation.

OTOH, you sound like a rabid Steripen apologist. Which not only brings your credibility into doubt in my mind but also makes me wonder if you have a vested interest in the outdoors industry or specifically Steripen.

Quote:
If you say so, but I think it is

Please elaborate .... it sounds like you are admitting that you feel criticism of Steripen is an attack on you personally.

Quote:
I also feel that MP1 is the best of the chemical treatments available even though it requires 4 hours against Cryptosporidium.

Nope. It may take up to 4 hrs. Look it up.

Quote:
I do note, however, that you seem a little defensive about your choice of Micropur.

Not at all. Whatever gave you that idea?

In agreement, I wrote: "That's been my experience also. Which is why I simply choose MP1."

How is that defensive?

Quote:
In sum, yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But, to be credible, you should be prepared to document your assertions.

You don't get it do you:

1) I am not going to do your research for you. It's your body. You're a grown man. Nuff said?
2) I don't have a dog in this fight. IOW; I couldn't care less what you or anyone else chooses to do about water treatment.
3) I couldn't care less whether or not you or anyone else believes me. My ego can handle your incredulity. And I do not have a vested interest in the outdoors industry.

I'll close w/an old Sherpa saying:

"Maybe true. Maybe not true. Better you believe."

BTW, my writing style and the nature of the Net may make my posts sound harsh. Naaah, always assume a calm, patient even kindly, tone unless I say otherwise. TIA for your consideration.

Peace,

Richard.

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#97545 - 06/09/08 09:11 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: ronin]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
"Ronin",

You answered your own question as to why I carry chlorine dioxide tabs W/ my SteriPen. As you said, there have been reports of SteriPen Adventurer failures in the field. As I did state in my post, I carry the Micropur tabs as a backup & to purify my hydration bag every few days to kill any lurking cooties.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#97546 - 06/10/08 09:28 AM Re: New post on water filters [Re: 300winmag]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
My original point was that studies suggest that maybe water treatment, of any sort, actually isn't needed in lots of environments.

I'd say that AT through hikers within 200 miles of NYC region, for example, might reasonaably want something. This is where I've done the majority of my hiking over many years. I've only treated water for past few years, due to a certain fussiness, maybe it's creeping old age.

In Cascades and Olypics, where I've also done a lot, I eschew treatment, while exercising some caution about particular sources.

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#97547 - 06/10/08 09:35 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: 300winmag]
ronin Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 41
Cool. Thx 300winmag.

Peace,

Richard.

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#97548 - 06/10/08 09:47 PM Re: New post on water filters [Re: johndavid]
ronin Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 41
Quote:
My original point was that studies suggest that maybe water treatment, of any sort, actually isn't needed in lots of environments.

You're probably right johndavid.

Quote:
I'd say that AT through hikers within 200 miles of NYC region, for example, might reasonaably want something.

Well, the AT is such a freeway. I dunno. Like most, I try to use common sense but when in doubt ....

Quote:
This is where I've done the majority of my hiking over many years. I've only treated water for past few years, due to a certain fussiness, maybe it's creeping old age.

Hmmm, maybe as we develop old timer's disease we try to avoid other diseases w/greater fervor? [chuckle]

Quote:
In Cascades and Olypics, where I've also done a lot, I eschew treatment, while exercising some caution about particular sources.

I do get your point about mountainous terrain. And mostly I agree w/you here also.

It looks to me like our disagreements are twofold:
1) When it comes to generalized statements in re water treatment ... I think recommending treatment is the wisest option.
2) When it comes to the, so called, science of water treatment .... beware false prophets. On both sides of the issue.

As always .... good chatting w/u johndavid.

Peace,

Richard.

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#97549 - 06/13/08 08:35 AM Re: New post on water filters [Re: johndavid]
bulrush Offline
member

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 132
Loc: Michigan
I always use a water filter when dealing with wild water (i.e. not from a spigot in a campground). I can never be sure what is upstream from me or what has washed into the stream. When I was 12 I had severe runs for 4 weeks straight. Under those conditions one should be in the hospital, but we did not have insurance. It was so bad I couldn't go to school for 4 weeks, since I spent most of my time in the bathroom. I'm not sure if it was food poisoning or something else (it started 2 days after an overnight camping trip to the local river).

It was so bad I had to get a new buttocks, since the old one had a crack in it.

I never ever want to repeat that experience.


Edited by bulrush (06/13/08 08:36 AM)

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#97550 - 06/13/08 09:23 AM Re: New post on water filters [Re: bulrush]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
As Colin Fletcher put it, you must have felt like the bottom had fallen out of your world, and vice versa. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Glenn (06/13/08 09:23 AM)

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