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#96805 - 05/25/08 11:04 AM there are campers out there
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
There are campers out there who desperately want to believe that anyone can go anywhere and do anything with no skill, training, equipment or common sense. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> The UL craze is driven by folks who read Rays stuff and BELIEVE that carrying less gear is SAFER than being prepared. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> These people lack any real experience <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />and lack the money to buy real quality gear, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> and want to believe that they are so much smarter than those who take the time to learn or who waste money on gear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> They are so totally naive that they ignore the benefit of experienced people who have survived in the wilderness because they had good gear and knowledge. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Why we let an inexperienced camper troll here and give them any respect at all is beyond me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />They don't want advice, they want to show you that you are stupid for thinking the wilderness is any diffeent than a walk in Central park. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

BTW this goes for people who swear you should hike barefooted, hike in Tevas off trail, leave all warm clothes at home and think Tarps are just as good as a mountaineering tent in a storm.

Can you say immature inexperienced dreamer?
Theres nothing wrong with lacking money, knowledge, or common sense as long as you don't claim that your opinion is just as good as those who do have experience. OTOH, didn't we all start off as wet behind the ears campers with inadequate equipment? Only some of us realised that was an inferior condition that should be changed as soon as possible.

Like many experienced folks here, I CAN go out with little or no gear and I DO know how to make my way in the wilderness, BUT it came from years of experince while carrying the right gear and I would do it as a fun exercise not because I think its smart to travel with little gear and I certainly would not suggest it to a newbie.
just my $.02
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96806 - 05/25/08 11:32 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Are you talking about someone in particular?? I don't think the inexperienced are "trolling". I think, especially the young ones, are acting.....'young' (owning two teenagers and having been one myself). I've noticed when one makes a goofy statement showing their inexperience, some folks here are quick to jump on it. Then the new person sits back and either reads and learns (a blessing) or moves on and practices becoming a Darwin statistic.
Most of us got here after years of being over equipped and inexperienced, but as experience developed, the equipment shrinks or becomes more targeted and smarter decisions are made. I've yet to scratch the surface on 'knowing it all' but I do know when I'm in over my head.

ps....Jim, I just got back from two weeks hiking in Ireland and DID hike off trail in my running sandals. Through the heather, bogs, sheep poo, and all. Delightful!
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96807 - 05/25/08 01:46 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Jim,

I've seen K-Mart Kampers on the AT and felt a bit sorry for them. But if their equipment holds up past their initial blunders like building a campfire downwind of their nylon tent, carrying a way too heavy stove, taking cotton clothing and not having waterproof stuff sacks or pack cover while hiking in a downpour then MAYBE, just maybe they will actually be gently enlightened by experienced backpackers they meet.

The big thing is to encorage them to stick with backpacking. Later they will have to face the sticker shock of purchasing truly good backpacking equipment. (However, if they own a nice motor boat then the cost of good quality backpacking equipment will seem trivial.) heh, heh > "boat" - A hole in the water into which one pours money.

But, yes, I've seen these woefully unprepared (skill wise) people who have new - but heavy & cheap - everything and now have to live with it for a while.
This is where current Boy Scout training DOES help to some extent because all the Scouts in our troop that I used to mentor were taught things like Leave No Trace ethics, routefinding, basic camp setup and proper equipment choice and use.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#96808 - 05/25/08 05:15 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Well I got a 5 pound rucksack, is this too heavy for you guys ?? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Dimitri

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#96809 - 05/25/08 05:38 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Heintooga Offline
member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 470
Loc: GSMNP
Quote:
Why we let an inexperienced camper troll here and give them any respect at all is beyond me.


You can't hurt my feelings <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
...ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein... (Jeremiah)

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#96810 - 05/25/08 06:15 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Heintooga]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Heinitoga
I don't mean to offend anyone. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I try to be as gentle non-judgemental as I can. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I was simply saying that certain topics are just trolls and are not worth responding to, much less wasting time trying to show a troller the error of their ways. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

And somebody asked if 5 pounds is too heavy for a pack - nope, not if thats what you want to carry, its your decision and your back friend, no moral judgements <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96811 - 05/25/08 06:28 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dimitri]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia

A 5 pound rucksack ? Are you out of your mind ?
What's wrong with using a plastic shopping bag ?
Franco
Thanks Jim for some uncommon sense....

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#96812 - 05/25/08 07:11 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Franco]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Thats the weight that is quoted for a Large USGI Alice Pack, Frame, Kidney Pad, and straps. Which is my do it all "longer hikes, trips, and hunting" pack. I might be out of my mind, but it works well.

I got a lighter pack, 1/3rd the volume (1,500 cu in vs. 3,800 cu in) and no metal frame but its made out of heavier 1000 Cordura Nylon and in general overly built, then the thiner ALICE pack materials. Not sure what that weights out to probably about 2-3 pounds.

Dimitri

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#96813 - 05/25/08 07:13 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Franco]
Heintooga Offline
member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 470
Loc: GSMNP
But you folks don't understand, I have a Bowie Knife and a booklet on edible plants. I'll be OK!!! Plastic bags are over rated, don't ya'll agree?
_________________________
...ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein... (Jeremiah)

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#96814 - 05/25/08 07:18 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
I'm the guy with the heavy pack, as for it hurting my back compared to other packs, this pack loaded up to ~40 pounds is barely noticeable.

Got to love that thick Kidney pad. And padded straps. And that waist belt keeps everything "in position".

Dimitri

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#96815 - 05/25/08 09:12 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dimitri]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2835
Loc: Portland, OR
Dimitri, there's an old saying: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

As applied to your five pound pack, the proof of its utility is in what it does for you when you load it and carry it. If you are satisfied with it, then why should anyone else complain or tell you it isn't good enough?

The real reason for a site like TLB and all the questions posted and answers given is for the people who want help or advice, who are not satisfied with their current way of doing things and are looking for something better. In other words, they have tasted their pudding and think it tastes lousy!

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#96816 - 05/26/08 04:13 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: aimless]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Cause constructive criticism gives me ideas to improve apon, nothing is prefect in the world. And certainly things can and do change.

We all may have our idea of perfect in our heads, but sometimes discussion helps us give use a better understand of new techniques and methods we never thought of before. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dimitri

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#96817 - 05/26/08 05:54 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dimitri]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I can't recall ever describing 40 lbs as barely noticeable. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#96818 - 05/26/08 07:44 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2742
Loc: California
OK. I fell off the technology train several miles back. What is a "Troll" and what is "trolling"???

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#96819 - 05/26/08 07:58 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: wandering_daisy]
pennys Offline


Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 2842
Loc: Washington
Think fishing.
Trolling on the 'net is basically posting something designed to get people riled up up, contentions from the start, ie, casting bait for a reaction.

from wiki
Quote:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
_________________________
tips for making gear

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#96820 - 05/26/08 08:32 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: pennys]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2742
Loc: California
Thanks! All this new internet etiquitte is interesting. Also, since I do not text message, some of the acronyms used here confuse me. Wow, that just shows my age!

If you think someone is "trolling" why don't you just ask "are you trolling?" A little controversy is OK with me as long as it does not overshadow productive discussion.

Jimshaw - I agree with you in many cases. The amount and type of gear required is really dependent on the region. When I moved to Californina from Utah-Wyoming, it took me several years to realize that I could pare down on clothing. My daughter's friend took her backpacking in the desert - she said it was the weirdest feeling being outdoors without rain gear! I've nearly got myself killed in the desert due to my igonrance of the critical issues of water (or lack thereof). I agree with you that when you enter a new environment, oversupply and then cut down as you gain experience.

A lot of trolling is adolescent bravado. It is rampant on the climbing forums (such as supertopo forum). One reason I like our forum here is that it is well moderated and everyone is polite. Thank you moderators! Thanks to all for keeping it civilized!

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#96821 - 05/26/08 12:49 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: pennys]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Quote:
... is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community....



uh.....Jim? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96822 - 05/26/08 02:21 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
With some diligent detective work I was able to obtain a photo of an actual internet troll in action.

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#96823 - 05/26/08 03:06 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Barely noticeable compared to other packs with even less weight then that.

I've had many uncomfortable packs in my time. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dimitri

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#96824 - 05/27/08 06:41 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: wandering_daisy]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
Also, since I do not text message, some of the acronyms used here confuse me. Wow, that just shows my age!


I don't believe in Text Messaging. Why do it? If you are already holding your phone, and you are sending someone a message to their phone, why not just dial the number and actually TALK to them? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> My younger brother, and many his age and younger text all the time. He says that he does it because he knows the other person is busy. I thought that is what the message service is for, ie leave a voice message. Texting seems to be a step backwards in the technology department. Last I checked, sending a telegram by morse code died with the invention of the telephone when people could actually talk to each other.

Back to the topic at hand. I agree, this post is trolling. Not that the other wasn't. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#96825 - 05/27/08 07:28 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: finallyME]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Just to stay off topic, texting has its place. If you take public transit and have listened to a teenager angrily break up with her boyfriend via cel phone on the seat next to you, you'll be a fan of text messaging.

Personally though, I'm not important enough to need to talk to anyone who can't wait until I get to work and log onto my backpacking forums <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
http://lighterload.blogspot.com/

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#96826 - 05/27/08 07:32 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
If someone is asking if their 5 pound pack is too heavy, they actually want your opinion. It's okay to say it's fine, but it's also ok to say "oh my god that's 4.5 pounds too heavy!" If the poster didn't want an opinion, they wouldn't ask on a public forum.

That said, a lot of us (myself included) are guilty of offering unsolicited advice. Most of us mean well, and I think this board is pretty tame when it comes to trolling. Easiest thing to do is ignore it, an unanswered troll is just a dead topic that will be forgotten after a week (the default search criteria.)
_________________________
http://lighterload.blogspot.com/

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#96827 - 05/27/08 11:40 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: finallyME]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Lol...finallyme, I am smiling <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My friends and I are bad - we are all in our late twenties early thirties and busy. So at home we all talk via IM or email. I can count on one hand how many times I have talked to each friend on the phone. None of us call each other. With IM and email we can talk as we have time.
Doesn't feel weird....just how we embraced technology <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Texting kills my hands though!
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#96828 - 05/27/08 07:05 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Dryer
RE: TROLL

I'm not going to go back and quote, but merely being controversial does not make a post a troll. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />A troll is intended to generate immediate emmotional response from people rejecting the concept so they write all kinds of uptight stuff so the author can snicker at how mad he or she made people. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Saying "my 75 pound pack (empty)" is better than anything on the market <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />- ( a troll) would be designed to get a whole bunch of people to write in saying "youre full it". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />If I write in and say I've just actualy made a 75 backpack from 2x4s and show a photo, its not a troll. It just means I'm stupid. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Suggesting that a dull knife is safer than a sharp one is my honest feeling after years of experience with knives. Others feel differently, but the controversy is intellectual not one of seeking to make fun of others for their opinions or differing experience. One is thought provoking, one is inflamatory. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The inflamatory one is a troll. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96829 - 05/27/08 08:28 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
I know yer not a troll Jim....just trying to solicit a response... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Maybe I'm the troll! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sharp/Dull knife.....So, what exactly is 'sharp'? My straight razors are SHARP! But not as sharp as my Feather brand commercial surgical razors. Compared to those, my pocket knives are hopelessly dull....but still pop hairs. What's dull, what's sharp? Gimmie a standard?
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96830 - 05/27/08 10:17 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Dryer
Everybody seemed to ignore the quote I put in there about scalpels not being that sharp, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />in fact no sharper than a shaving razor. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />There are much much sharper blades used by surgeons than scalpels, but the cut of a scalpel is not perfect because the slightly rough cut closes better than a cut from an extremely sharp instrument. A cut from a saw blade as an extreme will scar, but it will close quickly and stop bleading unless it goes to the bone, which is normal for a saw. A razor cut may heal with less scar, but it will bleed a lot more before it closes. I suppose you've cut your neck shaving with a single edged razor. Razor cuts do not stop bleeding quickly. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Gee perhaps the people here who like razor sharp knifes are too young to have been cut shaving? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />(Now thats an example of a troll...) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96831 - 05/27/08 10:32 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Listen UP you young whippersnappers!

When we talk about "inexperienced campers" in today's backpacking world we really old timers (60+) kinda feel sorry for them because they have been "deprived" -

i.e. deprived of being a BoyScout in the '50s when we caried REAL framless packs, canvas Boy Scout Yucca Packs. And we slept in rectangular, kapok filled (yep!) sleeping bags that we ROLLED up, eventually pulling all that keen kapok filling to the foot of the bag. We laid that bag on a ground cloth. MATTRESSES? We didn't need no stinkin' mattresses!

So when we "senior backpackers" think of inexperienced campers we know what REAL inexperience is. Lordy, nobody back then had any real understanding of good equipment. Kelty and Camp Trails and Gerry and Holubar had to invent a lot of what we have now.

Inexperienced? We had lots and lots of "experience" in the '50s - just mostly the wrong experience. But here we are today, those of us that weren't carried away by the BIG mosquitos. And is it any wonder we survivors today drool over the fantastic backpacking items available to us. We old timer "survivors" are the backpackers with a valid reason for being addicted gearheads (as if a valid reason is needed).

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#96832 - 05/28/08 05:21 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Quote:
There are much much sharper blades used by surgeons than scalpels, but the cut of a scalpel is not perfect because the slightly rough cut closes better than a cut from an extremely sharp instrument


I didn't miss that. And I agree, there are sharper blades than scalpels (hematomes come to mind) but my doc friend scratched his head when I asked about that. He wants sharp! Said a clean cut is easier to suture and makes less scaring. But again, what's sharp? To me, with a pocket knife, hair popping sharp is the stopping point. With an axe, I want a lightly honed working edge that will handle abuse...barely enough to pass the finger nail test.

Quote:
I suppose you've cut your neck shaving with a single edged razor.

I shave with a 5/8ths Dovo straight razor (cuz it's fun!) . Interestingly, I cut myself way less than with a "safety" double edged razor and those plastic razors are so sharp they 'tome' off layers of skin in a boo boo, exposing lots of blood vessels, which is why the bleeding. The straight razor mishap makes a thin cut barely into the surface of the skin UNLESS you draw it across the skin. Then you'll probably need stitches. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Under magnification, the blade has tiny serrations from the grain of the steel which cut like saw. I have a surgical injector blade straight razor and the blades are made by a Japanese company called Feather, who also makes surgical cutting instruments as well. It's edge under magnification looks like polished chrome. That sucker will cut ye real good! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> They put a fancy screen mesh on the blade right up to the edge for safety.

Hows that for a total hijack? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96833 - 05/28/08 05:24 AM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: 300winmag]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Aye! Those were the days!
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/four_yorkshiremen.htm
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96834 - 05/28/08 06:25 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
jshannon Offline
member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 410
Loc: North Texas
In my years reading this forum, I've seen Jim do this a number of times where he warns of impending doom to anyone wanting to backpack in the ultralight weight range. And in the same post he will boast about how he has all the experience and can do the impossible. Hang around long enough and it'll happen again right before winter.

Yeah, my response may offend, but it's happened repeatedly over the years and gets old seeing it.
_________________________
Ten Essential Groups

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#96835 - 05/28/08 09:17 AM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Dryer]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Paul, that was classic. off topic: Lad, will ye be postin' any news about the trip to the old country?
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#96836 - 05/28/08 09:33 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: jshannon]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Sarcasm:

We've still got late spring conditons, and the temperature is supposed to range from 57 to 78 degrees and there is a chance of thunderstorms, according to current weekend weather forecast for Pennsylvania at a point near the Appalachian Trail..

For the next four months, this sort of weather, or warmer conditions, are expected to prevail on most of the AT.

When walking, it's possible to slip and fall. In doing so, it's possible to break bones or dislocate joints. Experience and training in walking can increase safety, and some people OUGHT NOT CHEW GUM while attempting this.

One can die of sleep apnea, a condition that results in excessive snoring. Medical training and years of experience can be helpful in diagnosing this condition.

Obviously, one could also be hit by lightning.. Advanced physics (are?) required to fully understand the dynamics of the situation. This requires at least several years of training at the university level. Fortunately, flash floods of the sort found in desert canyons don't occur in this region, so additional hydrological training is unnecessary for safety.

Getting more than a couple of miles from a paved road is rare to impossible in this region. There are no dangerous wild animals.

Cliffs or rock ledges in Pennsylvania are rare. Training, preferably from a certified instructor, can help one recognize dangerous terrain. Years of experience in this immediate region would be less helpful, because there isn't any dangerous terrain.

Swimming is quite dangerous, and for this reason, very wise and experienced authorities have carefully banned this activity, unless a trained and certified lifeguard is in attendance. Otherwise, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS ACTIVITY. Read all rules. You may endanger yourself as well as highly experienced rescue personnel, who have families, and much better things to do with their time than become part of a tragedy caused by arrogant foolishness and inexperience.

The crime rate on the trail is very low, although Penn State offers helpful instruction in criminology provided by Ph.D recipients, and police and other public safety authorities can be made available for a free consultation, IF you know how to contact them.

Fire is also dangerous. You can be burned. This may be painful, and has resulted in unnecessary fatalities. My girl friend has difficulty operating a cigarette lighter, but fortunately, I've had lots of experience, although no actual training.

Be safe.

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#96837 - 05/28/08 11:33 AM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Dryer]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Paul,

Aaaarrr me Hearties! I concurr, the old days were hard but the hardships gave us character. That's why so many of us Old Timers are referred to as "characters"... with a sly snicker.

Snicker indeed! Go ahead and snicker ye soft ne'r-do-wells. But it is we Old Timers, those of us who lived in a shoebox - of cardboard - in the middle of the road - who have the real grit in our gizzard. WE don't mind a bit of sand in our beer. WE don't mind cooking over a smokey fire, hacking and tearing up,. WE don't mind living in the same clothes for seven days (tho others of lesser grit quail at our passing by then and mutter something about "hygene")

Yes, WE, the Old Timers, have paved the path ye newbies now tread. So pay homage to our sacrifice in the name of backpacking, because WE are the TRUE campers! AAaarrrr!

Eric
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#96838 - 05/28/08 11:39 AM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: 300winmag]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
You forgot to mention how you had to walk 10 miles to school, in the snow, uphill both ways, with your brother on your back... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

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#96839 - 05/28/08 11:59 AM too much [Re: jshannon]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I must have missed my antidepressant when I wrote this. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jim


Edited by Jimshaw (05/29/08 06:58 PM)
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#96840 - 05/28/08 12:15 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Glenn]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
... with your brother on your back... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Yeah, but was he heavy? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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#96841 - 05/28/08 01:06 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: phat]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Thanks for the Warning....!!! THAT IS SO KIND OF YOU!!!


You just never know when Yet Another Scrape with Death might happen ...OUT THERE............

...Only the Bravest and Most Wise Survive........

So many of Our Trails are littered with the bones of Boy Scouts who failed to earn their Merit Badges. (Very Important Training).

Do you have any good tips on repressing the Gag Reflex?????

Let's start a thread on dead boy scouts.............Terrible waste of youth.


But hiking is such an exciting way to spend hours and hours......that it makes up for all the TERRIBLE RISKS WE CONTINUALLY FACE..... No?..

Hey....let's face it, you just become an Adrenaline Junky............

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#96842 - 05/28/08 01:21 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: 300winmag]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:
those of us who lived in a shoebox - of cardboard - in the middle of the road


Shoebox??? Luxury. We were evicted from our shoebox.

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#96843 - 05/28/08 03:11 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Trailrunner]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, Carry our brothers to work in a backpack with barbed wired for straps, work twenty-nine hours a day down at themill, and the pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
....
And you try to tell the young people of today that.... they won't believe you!
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#96844 - 05/28/08 04:50 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: phat]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Nah - he's not heavy, he's my brother. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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#96845 - 05/29/08 04:03 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: phat]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Bloody hell, I had Javascript turned off and was reading in non-threaded mode and didn't even see
that Dryer's link pointed to the whole sketch <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oops. Mea Culpa.
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#96846 - 05/29/08 04:24 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Glenn]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Ahh! The good ole days. I was a scout in the early 60's and used to snow camp. Make our own lean too to sleep in for 2 nights. Build a fire back wall. Sleep on pine baughs. I had a ruc sack on a homemade aluminum frame. Had minimal gear etc. I used to just use a piece of visqueen as my tarp. I never owned a tent until I turned 50. I used to hear all the stories from my Dad's experience as a youth with several older brothers. How during the depression, he wore hand me downs and had to walk to school 5 miles. Kick the can was a fun game and rolling a wheel with a stick was a good time. These kids today. They don't have a clue. Unless they are exposed to the great outdoors they will be missing out on a large and beautiful part of life.
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#96847 - 05/29/08 04:39 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Fiddleback Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 478
Loc: Northern Rockies
If, while practicing UL, you leave needed items at home -- you are doing it wrong. Ultra light, IMO, is just that... light ...it doesn't mean doing without. Those who don't carry necessary gear and otherwise violate the "Be Prepared" mantra are, at the least, foolish

I've not attained 'ultra lightness' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but at about 14-15 lbs base weight I'm carrying less than half the weight I once did. And today I'm more comfortable, better fed, and better dressed for the vagaries of weather on the trail (with more toys to amuse me) than I ever was.

My group of tent mates in my Scout troop had a saying, "Any fool can be uncomfortable." That applies whether the pack weighs 5 pounds or 50.

FB
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#96848 - 05/29/08 06:56 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Fiddleback]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi Fiddleback.
It sounds like you have very carefully put together gear that works for you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />After you decide what to leave at home and what to take it becomes a relatively simple matter of choosing the individual pieces. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

whats important is that you have the experience to use that gear effectively. Its easier to be warm and comfortable with a 20 pound pack.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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#96849 - 05/29/08 11:13 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Jimmy, says:

"Theres nothing wrong with lacking money, knowledge, or common sense as long as you don't claim that your opinion is just as good as those who do have experience."

So anybody whose experience [according to Jim's arbitrary and imaginative view] is inferior to Jim's then, therefore has, ipso facto, an INFERIOR OPINION TO JIM's...

GOT THAT? Might it be true....???

Explicitly, this inferior group, according to Jim, includes Ray Jardine,.. We await the various published accounts, biographies etc. for both Jardine and Jim....that are doubtless forthcoming from publishers.

In addition to Jardine, this inferior group, by implication, also includes the "Little People" as they are sometimes known. Perhaps these are the vast number of people to whom James addresses himself, as the true Populist that we all hunger for.

Regardless, once can suppose that James has some very short list of people in his head, that he approves of for advise.

But mainly I think, he has some narrow ideas, that are based on his narrow interpretation of his own personal experience, which is doubtless significant. Unfortunately his thinking is also based on something else, that perhaps nobody at all, including James, fully understands......
JIMS adds, helpfully, that it's ....."just my $.02 cents." .......

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#96850 - 05/30/08 06:40 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: johndavid]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1726
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Quote:
So anybody whose experience [according to Jim's arbitrary and imaginative view] is inferior to Jim's then, therefore has, ipso facto, an INFERIOR OPINION TO JIM's...


Easy there! I think all of us feel that we are experienced to one degree or another. And, most of us are. What is hard for an individual to judge is just how experienced anyone is, including themselves; the ego gets in the way. The amount of time someone has spent involved in an activity does not really correlate with experience. There is a continuum between, for example, twenty years of experience and a year of experience repeated twenty times. I don't think anyone is qualified to say where they, or others, fall on this line.

Sociological research has repeatedly shown that experience will improve a persons performance up to a point (generally around ten years); beyond that point, added time tends to restrict the scope of a persons response to the unexpected (the autopilot effect). And yes, I am most likely a candidate for the autopilot effect myself. The book "Extreme Survival" illustrates the effect quite well.

I think it is presumptuous, at best, for any of us to judge others by what they say; what they actually do is a much better guide. Most of us here have a pretty good idea of what Jimshaw has done and is doing. Few of us, if any, have an idea of your resumé. Sure, Jim can be a cantankerous old toad; he has earned the right; not yet as sure about you.


Edited by Pika (05/30/08 06:45 AM)
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#96851 - 05/30/08 07:30 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Pika]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
I've got plenty of experience in my relatively forgiving little neck of the woods down here, but if I wanted to tackle something really tough, I'd want Wandering Daisy with me, or Phat, or Jim (if he promises not to start a shoot-out) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The troll-in-question's real problem is that even those of us without great reams of experience in more extreme environments can tell he's full of it to the eyeballs despite the names he drops.

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#96852 - 05/30/08 07:37 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Hector]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
I've got plenty of experience in my relatively forgiving little neck of the woods down here, but if I wanted to tackle something really tough, I'd want Wandering Daisy with me, or Phat, or Jim (if he promises not to start a shoot-out) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The troll-in-question's real problem is that even those of us without great reams of experience in more extreme environments can tell he's full of it to the eyeballs despite the names he drops.


Hey, don't lump me in with those two! Heck they're practically rope and bolts crowd! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Although I'd take on Jim at the Shooting Range any day - I suspect WD would hike us both into the dust - I look at her trip reports with green envy...
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#96853 - 05/30/08 08:02 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Hey, don't lump me in with those two! Heck they're practically rope and bolts crowd!


No, don't take phat. Take me. I know everything about everything, with the exception of most things. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Actually, I learn something new or effect a skill/gear refinement EVERY time I go out. My gear morphs as does my thinking. Closed minded inflexibility will get ya killed/injured or can make you really uncomfortable...and you won't make many friends, either.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I try to hang with people more skilled than me if at all possible. Lots of folks on this forum that fit that bill. "Soar with eagles, walk with turkeys...."
I do subscribe to the "1 year of experience 30 times" mantra, no expert I know is doing what they did 30 years ago, or even last year.
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#96854 - 05/30/08 08:03 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
> Hey, don't lump me in with those two!

But, you I could maybe keep up with! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#96855 - 05/30/08 01:06 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:

Actually, I learn something new or effect a skill/gear refinement EVERY time I go out. My gear morphs as does my thinking. Closed minded inflexibility will get ya killed/injured or can make you really uncomfortable...
I do subscribe to the "1 year of experience 30 times" mantra, no expert I know is doing what they did 30 years ago, or even last year.


I think I can wholeheartedly agree with that.
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#96856 - 05/31/08 12:21 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Hector]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
> But you I could maybe keep up with.

There's your problem - don't <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I stopped years ago trying to keep up with anyone when hiking with others. I go my own pace. It takes some practice not to follow slavishly, but hyoh. Sometimes this means people actually end up hiking with me, other times it means I see them at breaks and in camp. You'll have a lot more fun at *your* pace instead of someone else's.
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#96857 - 05/31/08 02:02 PM Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: Jimshaw]
Coosa Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/02
Posts: 115
Loc: NorthGA to LowerAL
Jim:

I see two basic types of people on the Trail. Hikers who camp are those who want to go from point A to point B and must stop to set up camp for the evening so that they can continue on. Campers who hike are those who want to go from campsite A to campsite B and they must hike to get there.

Hikers have culled their gear to the essentials and increased their skills. Campers carry a lot of extras 'just in case' and hope they can use their cell phone in case of emergency.

These are very generalized definitions. I was out on the AT in Maryland this past week and basically saw both types. Some were hikers who are "in training" and many were campers who "sherpa-ed" more weight than I could with extras that reminded me of "car camping."

Coosa

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#96858 - 05/31/08 05:05 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
pacing yourself is one of the most important lessons to learn if you want to enjoy your self. i also feel a good lesson to learn is not to pressure others to keep up if you are a faster hiker i usually end up being somewhere near the end of the line and dont like being told to hurry up or getting to rest stop and have others telling you its time to go after 5 min because they got there first and are ready yo push on.

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#96859 - 05/31/08 06:00 PM Re: Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: Coosa]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I think that's as good a classification as I've ever heard. The genus of Hikers can be further broken down, of course, into species of Traditional, Light, Ultralight, and Subultralight - but we'll leave that fight until another day. And, of course, there's been considerable cross-breeding between Traditional Hikers and Campers, with the result that the line between Hiker and Camper has become considerably blurred. But, all in all, I think you nailed it.

So, who's "right," Hikers or Campers? I'd submit they both are, so long as they are getting the pleasure and satisfaction they're seeking. There's nothing sadder than a Hiker who's forced to accompany a Camper, and vice versa. Each has a different, often incompatible, goal - and invariably both lose when one tries to force the other to change.

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#96860 - 05/31/08 06:06 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Good point. That got me in trouble a few months back at Mt. Rogers, VA. I let my considerably-younger, ex-SEAL buddy set up the hike. While he did not force me to try to keep up with him during the day (in fact, quite the opposite - he slowed down and was very encouraging), I tried to force myself to go faster, because I felt I was holding him back. I also felt under pressure simply because he set - and I agreed to (very important point) - daily mileage goals that were 25 - 30% higher than I usually am comfortable with (and 50% lower than his usual.) I wouldn't have made the daily goal at my pace, so I forced myself to pick it up - and ended up leaving the trail halfway through the trip. (At least I did the pretty half of the trip.)

So, there are two parts to HYOH: hike at your own pace, and make sure the daily goals (those campsites where you catch up) are within your daily range.

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#96861 - 05/31/08 08:42 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: johndavid]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Quotes:
So anybody whose experience [according to Jim's arbitrary and imaginative view] is inferior to Jim's then, therefore has, ipso facto, an INFERIOR OPINION TO JIM's...

<<no - thats your interpretation - maybe when you grow up you can take a logic class in school. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Do you have an inferiority complex?>


accounts, biographies etc. for both Jardine and Jim....that are doubtless forthcoming from publishers.

<<Do you compare your self with Ray? Ray was a dirt bag rock climber in camp 4 before your daddy was born. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Do I respect Ray - you betcha. Do I think Ray is a nut? No I know Ray is a nut. Do you have the experience Ray does - not hardly. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> >

<you live in a twisted fantacy world dude.>
<This entire rant makes no sense at all. But anyway thanks for the strokes.> Maybe you should go somewhere else for a while.> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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#96862 - 06/01/08 09:55 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
I think there is something to be said for both sides of the coin.

As an experienced long-distance trail hiker (AT, CT, BMT, part of JMT, etc), I can appreciate the lightweight/UL movement which has made a reasonably comfortable camp/sleep possible while allowing me to cover 15-25 miles in relative comfort as well. I LIKE having a very supportive pack that weighs only 2 pounds, a roomy tarptent of 27 ounces, a huge down quilt that actually fits me for only 2 pounds. These make my hiking much more pleasant.

Conversely, I have begun backpacking much more with my wife, who does not care for big miles. In this case, I carry a few extra items that make life in camp more comfortable, including fancier cookware and food. After all, I don't have to carry it so far as on a long-distance trip, and I'll enjoy life more when in camp with my wife. But I still really enjoy this luxury with a base weight of only 20 pounds, 10 pounds lighter than my lightest base weight of 9 years ago when I was thru-hiking the AT.

Ultimately, my hackles rise when I see posts explaining how a 3-lb base weight is perfectly reasonable for any one with "basic" knowledge. This post was on another forum and explained how the Sierras in August are more than forgiving and how this was perfectly safe and comfortable. True, the Sierras can be pretty forgiving this time of year. But the poster was an ultra-marathoner who routinely ran 30-mile days with this load. Was it appropriate to tell a novice this was "safe", or "reasonable", or particularly "comfortable"? I have serious reservations. I strongly believe that a 3-lb baseweight is really a "get-away-with-it" figure, posted to make people feel tough about themselves,when they are out on a short trip with a decent weather window. It's a lot like the old-schoolers who used to boast about carrying 90 lbs because they were tough enough to pull it off.

This is why so many folks here ask so many questions before giving answers. We want to offer the best advice possible, and the best for one person is NOT the best for EVERY person.
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#96863 - 06/01/08 10:35 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 654
Loc: Upstate NY
I have always believed the most important gear I carry is that which is packed right between my ears. It has taken me 30 years to accumulate that gear and it is still growing. Without that, anything else I carry is worthless.

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#96864 - 06/01/08 10:52 AM Re: Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: Coosa]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

I see two basic types of people on the Trail. Hikers who camp are those who want to go from point A to point B and must stop to set up camp for the evening so that they can continue on. Campers who hike are those who want to go from campsite A to campsite B and they must hike to get there.


What about those who care less about the destination, but only like the journey, and have to camp for the night to extend the journey? I am like that. I get my son, and we just walk around. We look at stuff, see what we can find, and then set up for the night when we get tired. There is no destination, except for the last day to get back to the car.
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#96865 - 06/01/08 11:37 AM Re: Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: finallyME]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 654
Loc: Upstate NY
Quote:
Quote:

I see two basic types of people on the Trail. Hikers who camp are those who want to go from point A to point B and must stop to set up camp for the evening so that they can continue on. Campers who hike are those who want to go from campsite A to campsite B and they must hike to get there.


What about those who care less about the destination, but only like the journey, and have to camp for the night to extend the journey? I am like that. I get my son, and we just walk around. We look at stuff, see what we can find, and then set up for the night when we get tired. There is no destination, except for the last day to get back to the car.


I agree with you. The outdoors is my "destination". I have a variety of activities I enjoy while being outdoors. Canoeing, hiking, fishing to name a few.

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#96866 - 06/01/08 12:41 PM Re: Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: Coosa]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
I like the classification. I'll admit there are times I am more hybrid and there are times where I am more hiker. Most of the time I end up having more gear than I need that isn't necessary just for those rare "just in case" situations. Plus for whatever reason I always end up going with people who forget stuff, so I don't mind having the extras for their lack of preparation(I'm not laying thier gear out or giving them a packing list, they're adults). That's only been since I've left home though since I've been able to blow my paychecks on all sorts of gear.

Now I'm starting to narrow my gear down though as of late for this backpacking season. I figure I've been going traditional long enough and I'm tired of challenging myself with more weight just for the hell of it, lol. From what I'm looking at now, I'm at less than 20 pounds and I'm looking at lowering that still over time of course. That is by the way 10-13 less pounds than what I usually carry, lol. You could say I overthink what I need and might need.

But I don't think either is bad. I mean, most of the time I'm just out there to be out there and I usually end up camping wherever or whenever I feel like stopping. The only time I'm ever an A to B hiker is when I've got only a limited amount of time. I stop too much to take in the sights to be any kind of speed hiker.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#96867 - 06/02/08 01:03 AM there are campers out there-pride of ownership [Re: Jimshaw]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Dare I say it?

Many of us who post here have what is known as "pride of ownership" in our gear, whether it is hommade, home-modified or high quality gear purchased with hard-earned coin.

So yes, I can say that all of us go outdoors for the experience of nature that the trip brings us. But most of us also have pride of ownership when our tent or tarp protects us in an all night storm, when our chosen pack rides comfortably morning to afternoon and when our stove works well and cooks us a good meal at the end of a weary day's hike.

All of these "material things" have usually come from hard-won experience and constant tinkering with equipment to make camp and trail life more comfortable and safer. It is that very tinkering, "upgrading", exchanging ideas and info. on gear, recipies and trails that creates anticipation of the next backpacking trip and that sustains our interest between trips.

And let's not forget the large and mostly small companies whose research and innovation has given us superb equipment to enjoy our hobby. They learned from their outdoor experience too and passed their learning on in the form of ever better gear.

So as we continue to enjoy our hobby and learn to be better backpackers let's pass on what weve learned to friends and to the younger kids who need our guidance. And let's always do it in the spirit of friendly mentoring.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#96868 - 06/02/08 04:22 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Bearpaw]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Congratulations, Bearpaw - I notice a reference to your fiancee is now a reference to your wife! (Tell Sleeps-with-Skunks that we suspect you married a whole lot better than she did - but then that's the case with most of us husbands.)

I wish you both many years of happiness together.

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#96869 - 06/02/08 04:26 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Glenn]
6brnorma Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 252
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
Tell Sleeps-with-Skunks


Guess that says it all <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#96870 - 06/02/08 05:31 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: 6brnorma]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I am not that experienced, but I think I am now old and wise enough to hike just about anywhere that doesn't scare the crap out of me. Much of my success comes from being able to get myself lost in fairly familiar territory, which saves alot on gas also.

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#96871 - 06/02/08 06:48 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Glenn]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Thanks for pointing that out Glenn. I didn't even notice. Congratulations, bearpaw. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#96872 - 06/02/08 09:42 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
Believe it or not, Phat, I've never gone backpacking (as opposed to day hiking) with anyone but a couple of kids, now nine years old. I have to match their pace, sorry. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Mostly I go alone.

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#96873 - 06/10/08 08:20 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
absalom Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 10
The most annoying people I've met on trails and online, even more annoying than "Kmart Kampers," are the gear snobs.

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#96874 - 06/10/08 09:57 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: absalom]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Quote:
The most annoying people I've met on trails and online, even more annoying than "Kmart Kampers," are the gear snobs.


If you listen to one of my day hiking friends, I am a gear snob.

But what I really am is older, and more aware of limitations and precautions and possibilities. I tell her when she is dead dog tired and dragging a$$ the last three miles of an eight mile hike - you need a better pack to distribute the weight on your body more effectively, you need better food for the sustained effort that is hiking, you need to carry less water and rely on a filter especially when nine tenths of the hike is along rivers and streams. Also she needs to think about what's in the pack. Your legs won't feel like they're falling off if you pay a little more attention to what's on the back and how it's balanced.

But she doesn't listen; she thinks I'm advising her to risk her life by using a filter (????) and wants to carry liter upon liter of tap water from home. She eats fruit salad for lunch. She doesn't carry first aid other than a few squares of moleskin. She doesn't carry emergency supplies, a whistle, or any kind of water purification scheme. I offered to loan her one of my packs. She has a book bag. No, thank you, I'd rather carry four liters of water in Nalgenes that bump my thighs with every step.

I told her that hiking Half Dome in a day, even if you're with a group, should entail packing as if you're going to spend the night out there - at least carry warm clothes to throw on and a headlamp to keep hiking after dark. Given her observed .4 miles per hour pace, it's gonna be a long walk.

Nope.

I wish I were as indestructible as I used to be at her age. She thinks I walk easily twenty minutes ahead of her, uphill and downhill, because I'm in better shape - yet she's the one going to the gym and half my age. She's the one without extra pounds on the midriff. I'm just that gear snob who insists on throwing in water filter, first aid and extra food, into a pack that actually carries the weight in the right place. I carried half the water she did and tanked up when I ran out. I brought powerbars and trail mix and other things to maintain adequate energy levels. What do I know?

Well, okay. Bonk if you want to - but you'll have a better chance of making it to Half Dome my way, sorry. Not hubris, just observed behavior coupled with an idea of the level of difficulty of the hike. She crashed and burned at the top of Nevada Falls. That's barely a third of the way in.

I'm not a gear snob - I just hate seeing people suffer on the trail, and I don't want to suffer either. I stopped to help a very sick "scout" - he was not a real Boy Scout, but part of some (I suspect) church group. Not prepared at all, out of water, stomach cramps, no food, and I just wonder what would have happened to him had we been further up the trail in less tourist-traveled miles of wilderness. Trying to wait out a temporary ailment with no supplies could be deadly, if he had to wait much past dusk. So while I won't go so far as to lecture like some <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I will say that preparing for the worst has helped me enjoy my hiking a lot more than marching forth with a windbreaker and a granola bar, wearing jeans and assuming things would go perfectly. I assumed a lot when I was younger. I may have been lucky then; not going to count on it any more.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#96875 - 06/11/08 05:10 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Yes, I agree that there is no better knowledge than experience. I know I wouldn't take on anything that I wasn't sure I couldn't pull off no matter what it is. I don't climb anything anymore because I'm not as strong and agile as I once was. If I don't know my direction in the wilderness, I blaze my trail so I can backtrack. I believe in wearing sensible shoes. etc. And I don't have disposal income to blow on gear just to see if it suites my needs. But. Not to get off the subject. I had a racing friend that asked me once if I thought someone could get in my race car and run a faster lap than I. My reply was, probably. And this is true. But that day, I took second place in my class. Two weeks later I took first place in my class. Two weeks after that I did another first in class, beating the times of several drivers in cars far superior to mine. Practice makes perfect, maybe. But some people have natural ability to excel beyond others that may never get it. I believe that being sensible and staying alive is talent and a bit of an art form.
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#96876 - 06/11/08 07:04 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: lori]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I sure liked that hike to half dome. It is really beautiful at the top. I am usually not scared of heights, but looking over that cliff sure put the fear of God in me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for helping that boy. We need more people like that on the trail. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#96877 - 06/11/08 07:36 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: chaz]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
You mentioned having disposable income to try a lot of gear to see if it fits your needs. I think there's a definite relationship between experience and gear (and I'm coming from a range of positions, from having to buy what I could afford when I had kids at home and was just getting established in a career, to being able to tinker with my outfit to my heart's content now that the kids are self-sufficient, the house is paid for, and the career well-established.)

In the early years, cost was the major factor controlling my camping life. I would go out for a few days, determine how everything worked and gain the experience to make do with what I had, and then prioritize what I wanted to replace (thereby answering the incessant, "What does Glenn want for his birthday/Father's Day/Christmas?") Experience colored my gear selections heavily: the American Camper e-frame pack worked, but was never really comfortable and needed constant repair; it went high on the priority list because no amount of experience can overcome an uncomfortable pack. However, I learned how to deal with bugs and rain because all I had was a tarp. I learned how to prepare simple meals, mostly based on ramen noodles plus "mix-ins" because all my Sterno stove could do was boil water. (I still remember the glorious Christmas when I unwrapped a Svea stove!)

As time went on, the role of experience gave way to gear selection as a major focus. Partly, this was a function of reaching the "five years experience four times" feature of spending 20 years hiking in Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana forests - not a lot of significant experience remained to be gotten, so you spent 15 years refining and repeating what you learned the first 5 years. Luckily, this shift in emphasis coincided with a shift in disposable income.

However, the experience gained had a major bearing in how I selected replacement gear. First, I went through a light-at-all-costs phase, reducing basic pack weight to about 8 - 10 pounds. What I found was that this gear was usable, but was near the lower limits of what my experience found to be comfortable. My own experience was that I had learned to get by with whatever gear I had, but that the best trips featured, first, gear that faded into the background and, second, a light pack. I had the light pack, but the gear needed constant fiddling with - it wasn't fading into the background. As a result, it detracted from the trip rather than adding to it (much the same could be said for the early years' gear, too.) So, I fiddled some more, threw some more money at the problem, and finally came up with a set of gear that I can use almost without thinking, and my trips were now more pleasurable while the pack remained at about 12 or 13 pounds base weight.

However, gear never replaces experience. Instead, your experience establishes your unique set of preferences and needs, and drives your gear selection in that direction. The gear should remain a means, not an end. (By the way, some of my discards fit others' experience-driven preferences very nicely - so it was a win-win for me.)

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#96878 - 06/11/08 09:13 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Glenn]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Glenn,

There is a lot of wisdom in your post. I generally have about a 12 pound base weight. I have the knowledge and gear to push that down to 8 pounds, but 12 pounds gives me more layering options, more cooking options and I sleep in a hammock.

I retired my BushBuddy Ultra because of the fiddle factor and again am using an alcohol stove.

The one piece of gear that is the focus of activity is my hammock.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#96879 - 06/11/08 09:15 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: lori]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
lori

About your friend. I too have a friend who insists on taking a couple of the small 8 oz sealed water bottles because they are safe, but no canteen or anything. She always wears black even in hot sunny summer days. She thinks she is very smart. I do not hike or camp with her anymore. Its not worth babysitting and carrying extra stuff for her.

And Lori, you are such a silly paranoid goose - why carry all of that etra stuff? You could take a book bag also.

I've seen many a tough hiker totalled by Nevada Falls. Gee lets take the SLR and all of the lenses and the big binoculars to enjoy the view from the top. I think its 22 miles round trip with like 6,000 feet elevation change going up Half dome. Could your friend hike 22 miles in a day where its flat? Does she live at sea level?

Maybe you should trell her that you're not hiking with her anymore unless she changes her ways. She could get you in trouble trying to help her.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96880 - 06/11/08 11:35 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Quote:


And Lori, you are such a silly paranoid goose - why carry all of that etra stuff? You could take a book bag also.

I've seen many a tough hiker totalled by Nevada Falls. Gee lets take the SLR and all of the lenses and the big binoculars to enjoy the view from the top. I think its 22 miles round trip with like 6,000 feet elevation change going up Half dome. Could your friend hike 22 miles in a day where its flat? Does she live at sea level?

Maybe you should trell her that you're not hiking with her anymore unless she changes her ways. She could get you in trouble trying to help her.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


My hydration bladder capable day pack is much smaller than her bookbag and totally comfortable. I put up to 15 lbs in it just to be carrying weight, in prep for carrying a full backpack.

I'm certainly not going to hike with her to Half Dome. I'm not going to Half Dome at all, I'm perfectly aware of how out of shape I am; I'd rather not hurt myself. We're in a hiking group together. I suspect she's unhappy that I left her behind on the trail but she's not the sort who tells you such things... guess we'll go on the group hikes and the rest of the time I'll be on my own.

At least she listened to me about the running shoes? Of course, she slipped on granite in the running shoes, so that was incentive. She bought some spendy hiking boots. Now she thinks she's done with gear. I don't know that I want to be around when she decides she really needed that emergency gear I was so paranoid to carry everywhere - though I don't wish her any harm, and want her to be safe.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#96881 - 06/11/08 04:53 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: lori]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Nothing wrong with people who buy good gear. In my opinion its the annoying "I'm better then you cause I have "X" item instead of your "Y" item" gear snobs who are the problem.

I've hiked lot of shorter day trails at Provincial parks in Northern Ontario and I've seen many who looked down on my simple but effective gear because its "dumb", "bulky", "military surplus", "old", "made of cotton not some super duper synthetic" etc. depending on the gear I have on me it could be a combination of all of them. And yet most of the time I over took them on the trail and finished the hike first.

Funny thing is I'm a gear "addict" I use so much different gear at times (especially when car camping) that sometimes I use different gear on a day to day basis depending on my mood.

Currently I think I've settled on a decent "day" pack that I turned into a 2-3 day capable "weekend getaway" pack. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dimitri

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