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#96855 - 05/30/08 01:06 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:

Actually, I learn something new or effect a skill/gear refinement EVERY time I go out. My gear morphs as does my thinking. Closed minded inflexibility will get ya killed/injured or can make you really uncomfortable...
I do subscribe to the "1 year of experience 30 times" mantra, no expert I know is doing what they did 30 years ago, or even last year.


I think I can wholeheartedly agree with that.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
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#96856 - 05/31/08 12:21 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Hector]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
> But you I could maybe keep up with.

There's your problem - don't <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I stopped years ago trying to keep up with anyone when hiking with others. I go my own pace. It takes some practice not to follow slavishly, but hyoh. Sometimes this means people actually end up hiking with me, other times it means I see them at breaks and in camp. You'll have a lot more fun at *your* pace instead of someone else's.
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Any fool can be uncomfortable...
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#96857 - 05/31/08 02:02 PM Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: Jimshaw]
Coosa Offline
member

Registered: 03/11/02
Posts: 115
Loc: NorthGA to LowerAL
Jim:

I see two basic types of people on the Trail. Hikers who camp are those who want to go from point A to point B and must stop to set up camp for the evening so that they can continue on. Campers who hike are those who want to go from campsite A to campsite B and they must hike to get there.

Hikers have culled their gear to the essentials and increased their skills. Campers carry a lot of extras 'just in case' and hope they can use their cell phone in case of emergency.

These are very generalized definitions. I was out on the AT in Maryland this past week and basically saw both types. Some were hikers who are "in training" and many were campers who "sherpa-ed" more weight than I could with extras that reminded me of "car camping."

Coosa

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#96858 - 05/31/08 05:05 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
pacing yourself is one of the most important lessons to learn if you want to enjoy your self. i also feel a good lesson to learn is not to pressure others to keep up if you are a faster hiker i usually end up being somewhere near the end of the line and dont like being told to hurry up or getting to rest stop and have others telling you its time to go after 5 min because they got there first and are ready yo push on.

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#96859 - 05/31/08 06:00 PM Re: Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: Coosa]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I think that's as good a classification as I've ever heard. The genus of Hikers can be further broken down, of course, into species of Traditional, Light, Ultralight, and Subultralight - but we'll leave that fight until another day. And, of course, there's been considerable cross-breeding between Traditional Hikers and Campers, with the result that the line between Hiker and Camper has become considerably blurred. But, all in all, I think you nailed it.

So, who's "right," Hikers or Campers? I'd submit they both are, so long as they are getting the pleasure and satisfaction they're seeking. There's nothing sadder than a Hiker who's forced to accompany a Camper, and vice versa. Each has a different, often incompatible, goal - and invariably both lose when one tries to force the other to change.

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#96860 - 05/31/08 06:06 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Good point. That got me in trouble a few months back at Mt. Rogers, VA. I let my considerably-younger, ex-SEAL buddy set up the hike. While he did not force me to try to keep up with him during the day (in fact, quite the opposite - he slowed down and was very encouraging), I tried to force myself to go faster, because I felt I was holding him back. I also felt under pressure simply because he set - and I agreed to (very important point) - daily mileage goals that were 25 - 30% higher than I usually am comfortable with (and 50% lower than his usual.) I wouldn't have made the daily goal at my pace, so I forced myself to pick it up - and ended up leaving the trail halfway through the trip. (At least I did the pretty half of the trip.)

So, there are two parts to HYOH: hike at your own pace, and make sure the daily goals (those campsites where you catch up) are within your daily range.

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#96861 - 05/31/08 08:42 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: johndavid]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Quotes:
So anybody whose experience [according to Jim's arbitrary and imaginative view] is inferior to Jim's then, therefore has, ipso facto, an INFERIOR OPINION TO JIM's...

<<no - thats your interpretation - maybe when you grow up you can take a logic class in school. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Do you have an inferiority complex?>


accounts, biographies etc. for both Jardine and Jim....that are doubtless forthcoming from publishers.

<<Do you compare your self with Ray? Ray was a dirt bag rock climber in camp 4 before your daddy was born. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Do I respect Ray - you betcha. Do I think Ray is a nut? No I know Ray is a nut. Do you have the experience Ray does - not hardly. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> >

<you live in a twisted fantacy world dude.>
<This entire rant makes no sense at all. But anyway thanks for the strokes.> Maybe you should go somewhere else for a while.> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96862 - 06/01/08 09:55 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
I think there is something to be said for both sides of the coin.

As an experienced long-distance trail hiker (AT, CT, BMT, part of JMT, etc), I can appreciate the lightweight/UL movement which has made a reasonably comfortable camp/sleep possible while allowing me to cover 15-25 miles in relative comfort as well. I LIKE having a very supportive pack that weighs only 2 pounds, a roomy tarptent of 27 ounces, a huge down quilt that actually fits me for only 2 pounds. These make my hiking much more pleasant.

Conversely, I have begun backpacking much more with my wife, who does not care for big miles. In this case, I carry a few extra items that make life in camp more comfortable, including fancier cookware and food. After all, I don't have to carry it so far as on a long-distance trip, and I'll enjoy life more when in camp with my wife. But I still really enjoy this luxury with a base weight of only 20 pounds, 10 pounds lighter than my lightest base weight of 9 years ago when I was thru-hiking the AT.

Ultimately, my hackles rise when I see posts explaining how a 3-lb base weight is perfectly reasonable for any one with "basic" knowledge. This post was on another forum and explained how the Sierras in August are more than forgiving and how this was perfectly safe and comfortable. True, the Sierras can be pretty forgiving this time of year. But the poster was an ultra-marathoner who routinely ran 30-mile days with this load. Was it appropriate to tell a novice this was "safe", or "reasonable", or particularly "comfortable"? I have serious reservations. I strongly believe that a 3-lb baseweight is really a "get-away-with-it" figure, posted to make people feel tough about themselves,when they are out on a short trip with a decent weather window. It's a lot like the old-schoolers who used to boast about carrying 90 lbs because they were tough enough to pull it off.

This is why so many folks here ask so many questions before giving answers. We want to offer the best advice possible, and the best for one person is NOT the best for EVERY person.
_________________________
http://www.trailjournals.com/BearpawAT99/

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#96863 - 06/01/08 10:35 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Upstate NY
I have always believed the most important gear I carry is that which is packed right between my ears. It has taken me 30 years to accumulate that gear and it is still growing. Without that, anything else I carry is worthless.

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#96864 - 06/01/08 10:52 AM Re: Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: Coosa]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

I see two basic types of people on the Trail. Hikers who camp are those who want to go from point A to point B and must stop to set up camp for the evening so that they can continue on. Campers who hike are those who want to go from campsite A to campsite B and they must hike to get there.


What about those who care less about the destination, but only like the journey, and have to camp for the night to extend the journey? I am like that. I get my son, and we just walk around. We look at stuff, see what we can find, and then set up for the night when we get tired. There is no destination, except for the last day to get back to the car.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#96865 - 06/01/08 11:37 AM Re: Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: finallyME]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Upstate NY
Quote:
Quote:

I see two basic types of people on the Trail. Hikers who camp are those who want to go from point A to point B and must stop to set up camp for the evening so that they can continue on. Campers who hike are those who want to go from campsite A to campsite B and they must hike to get there.


What about those who care less about the destination, but only like the journey, and have to camp for the night to extend the journey? I am like that. I get my son, and we just walk around. We look at stuff, see what we can find, and then set up for the night when we get tired. There is no destination, except for the last day to get back to the car.


I agree with you. The outdoors is my "destination". I have a variety of activities I enjoy while being outdoors. Canoeing, hiking, fishing to name a few.

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#96866 - 06/01/08 12:41 PM Re: Campers who hike and hikers who camp [Re: Coosa]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
I like the classification. I'll admit there are times I am more hybrid and there are times where I am more hiker. Most of the time I end up having more gear than I need that isn't necessary just for those rare "just in case" situations. Plus for whatever reason I always end up going with people who forget stuff, so I don't mind having the extras for their lack of preparation(I'm not laying thier gear out or giving them a packing list, they're adults). That's only been since I've left home though since I've been able to blow my paychecks on all sorts of gear.

Now I'm starting to narrow my gear down though as of late for this backpacking season. I figure I've been going traditional long enough and I'm tired of challenging myself with more weight just for the hell of it, lol. From what I'm looking at now, I'm at less than 20 pounds and I'm looking at lowering that still over time of course. That is by the way 10-13 less pounds than what I usually carry, lol. You could say I overthink what I need and might need.

But I don't think either is bad. I mean, most of the time I'm just out there to be out there and I usually end up camping wherever or whenever I feel like stopping. The only time I'm ever an A to B hiker is when I've got only a limited amount of time. I stop too much to take in the sights to be any kind of speed hiker.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#96867 - 06/02/08 01:03 AM there are campers out there-pride of ownership [Re: Jimshaw]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Dare I say it?

Many of us who post here have what is known as "pride of ownership" in our gear, whether it is hommade, home-modified or high quality gear purchased with hard-earned coin.

So yes, I can say that all of us go outdoors for the experience of nature that the trip brings us. But most of us also have pride of ownership when our tent or tarp protects us in an all night storm, when our chosen pack rides comfortably morning to afternoon and when our stove works well and cooks us a good meal at the end of a weary day's hike.

All of these "material things" have usually come from hard-won experience and constant tinkering with equipment to make camp and trail life more comfortable and safer. It is that very tinkering, "upgrading", exchanging ideas and info. on gear, recipies and trails that creates anticipation of the next backpacking trip and that sustains our interest between trips.

And let's not forget the large and mostly small companies whose research and innovation has given us superb equipment to enjoy our hobby. They learned from their outdoor experience too and passed their learning on in the form of ever better gear.

So as we continue to enjoy our hobby and learn to be better backpackers let's pass on what weve learned to friends and to the younger kids who need our guidance. And let's always do it in the spirit of friendly mentoring.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#96868 - 06/02/08 04:22 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Bearpaw]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Congratulations, Bearpaw - I notice a reference to your fiancee is now a reference to your wife! (Tell Sleeps-with-Skunks that we suspect you married a whole lot better than she did - but then that's the case with most of us husbands.)

I wish you both many years of happiness together.

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#96869 - 06/02/08 04:26 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Glenn]
6brnorma Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 252
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
Tell Sleeps-with-Skunks


Guess that says it all <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#96870 - 06/02/08 05:31 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: 6brnorma]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I am not that experienced, but I think I am now old and wise enough to hike just about anywhere that doesn't scare the crap out of me. Much of my success comes from being able to get myself lost in fairly familiar territory, which saves alot on gas also.

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#96871 - 06/02/08 06:48 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Glenn]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Thanks for pointing that out Glenn. I didn't even notice. Congratulations, bearpaw. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#96872 - 06/02/08 09:42 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
Believe it or not, Phat, I've never gone backpacking (as opposed to day hiking) with anyone but a couple of kids, now nine years old. I have to match their pace, sorry. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Mostly I go alone.

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#96873 - 06/10/08 08:20 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
absalom Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 10
The most annoying people I've met on trails and online, even more annoying than "Kmart Kampers," are the gear snobs.

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#96874 - 06/10/08 09:57 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: absalom]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Quote:
The most annoying people I've met on trails and online, even more annoying than "Kmart Kampers," are the gear snobs.


If you listen to one of my day hiking friends, I am a gear snob.

But what I really am is older, and more aware of limitations and precautions and possibilities. I tell her when she is dead dog tired and dragging a$$ the last three miles of an eight mile hike - you need a better pack to distribute the weight on your body more effectively, you need better food for the sustained effort that is hiking, you need to carry less water and rely on a filter especially when nine tenths of the hike is along rivers and streams. Also she needs to think about what's in the pack. Your legs won't feel like they're falling off if you pay a little more attention to what's on the back and how it's balanced.

But she doesn't listen; she thinks I'm advising her to risk her life by using a filter (????) and wants to carry liter upon liter of tap water from home. She eats fruit salad for lunch. She doesn't carry first aid other than a few squares of moleskin. She doesn't carry emergency supplies, a whistle, or any kind of water purification scheme. I offered to loan her one of my packs. She has a book bag. No, thank you, I'd rather carry four liters of water in Nalgenes that bump my thighs with every step.

I told her that hiking Half Dome in a day, even if you're with a group, should entail packing as if you're going to spend the night out there - at least carry warm clothes to throw on and a headlamp to keep hiking after dark. Given her observed .4 miles per hour pace, it's gonna be a long walk.

Nope.

I wish I were as indestructible as I used to be at her age. She thinks I walk easily twenty minutes ahead of her, uphill and downhill, because I'm in better shape - yet she's the one going to the gym and half my age. She's the one without extra pounds on the midriff. I'm just that gear snob who insists on throwing in water filter, first aid and extra food, into a pack that actually carries the weight in the right place. I carried half the water she did and tanked up when I ran out. I brought powerbars and trail mix and other things to maintain adequate energy levels. What do I know?

Well, okay. Bonk if you want to - but you'll have a better chance of making it to Half Dome my way, sorry. Not hubris, just observed behavior coupled with an idea of the level of difficulty of the hike. She crashed and burned at the top of Nevada Falls. That's barely a third of the way in.

I'm not a gear snob - I just hate seeing people suffer on the trail, and I don't want to suffer either. I stopped to help a very sick "scout" - he was not a real Boy Scout, but part of some (I suspect) church group. Not prepared at all, out of water, stomach cramps, no food, and I just wonder what would have happened to him had we been further up the trail in less tourist-traveled miles of wilderness. Trying to wait out a temporary ailment with no supplies could be deadly, if he had to wait much past dusk. So while I won't go so far as to lecture like some <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I will say that preparing for the worst has helped me enjoy my hiking a lot more than marching forth with a windbreaker and a granola bar, wearing jeans and assuming things would go perfectly. I assumed a lot when I was younger. I may have been lucky then; not going to count on it any more.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#96875 - 06/11/08 05:10 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Yes, I agree that there is no better knowledge than experience. I know I wouldn't take on anything that I wasn't sure I couldn't pull off no matter what it is. I don't climb anything anymore because I'm not as strong and agile as I once was. If I don't know my direction in the wilderness, I blaze my trail so I can backtrack. I believe in wearing sensible shoes. etc. And I don't have disposal income to blow on gear just to see if it suites my needs. But. Not to get off the subject. I had a racing friend that asked me once if I thought someone could get in my race car and run a faster lap than I. My reply was, probably. And this is true. But that day, I took second place in my class. Two weeks later I took first place in my class. Two weeks after that I did another first in class, beating the times of several drivers in cars far superior to mine. Practice makes perfect, maybe. But some people have natural ability to excel beyond others that may never get it. I believe that being sensible and staying alive is talent and a bit of an art form.
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#96876 - 06/11/08 07:04 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: lori]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I sure liked that hike to half dome. It is really beautiful at the top. I am usually not scared of heights, but looking over that cliff sure put the fear of God in me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for helping that boy. We need more people like that on the trail. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#96877 - 06/11/08 07:36 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: chaz]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
You mentioned having disposable income to try a lot of gear to see if it fits your needs. I think there's a definite relationship between experience and gear (and I'm coming from a range of positions, from having to buy what I could afford when I had kids at home and was just getting established in a career, to being able to tinker with my outfit to my heart's content now that the kids are self-sufficient, the house is paid for, and the career well-established.)

In the early years, cost was the major factor controlling my camping life. I would go out for a few days, determine how everything worked and gain the experience to make do with what I had, and then prioritize what I wanted to replace (thereby answering the incessant, "What does Glenn want for his birthday/Father's Day/Christmas?") Experience colored my gear selections heavily: the American Camper e-frame pack worked, but was never really comfortable and needed constant repair; it went high on the priority list because no amount of experience can overcome an uncomfortable pack. However, I learned how to deal with bugs and rain because all I had was a tarp. I learned how to prepare simple meals, mostly based on ramen noodles plus "mix-ins" because all my Sterno stove could do was boil water. (I still remember the glorious Christmas when I unwrapped a Svea stove!)

As time went on, the role of experience gave way to gear selection as a major focus. Partly, this was a function of reaching the "five years experience four times" feature of spending 20 years hiking in Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana forests - not a lot of significant experience remained to be gotten, so you spent 15 years refining and repeating what you learned the first 5 years. Luckily, this shift in emphasis coincided with a shift in disposable income.

However, the experience gained had a major bearing in how I selected replacement gear. First, I went through a light-at-all-costs phase, reducing basic pack weight to about 8 - 10 pounds. What I found was that this gear was usable, but was near the lower limits of what my experience found to be comfortable. My own experience was that I had learned to get by with whatever gear I had, but that the best trips featured, first, gear that faded into the background and, second, a light pack. I had the light pack, but the gear needed constant fiddling with - it wasn't fading into the background. As a result, it detracted from the trip rather than adding to it (much the same could be said for the early years' gear, too.) So, I fiddled some more, threw some more money at the problem, and finally came up with a set of gear that I can use almost without thinking, and my trips were now more pleasurable while the pack remained at about 12 or 13 pounds base weight.

However, gear never replaces experience. Instead, your experience establishes your unique set of preferences and needs, and drives your gear selection in that direction. The gear should remain a means, not an end. (By the way, some of my discards fit others' experience-driven preferences very nicely - so it was a win-win for me.)

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#96878 - 06/11/08 09:13 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Glenn]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Glenn,

There is a lot of wisdom in your post. I generally have about a 12 pound base weight. I have the knowledge and gear to push that down to 8 pounds, but 12 pounds gives me more layering options, more cooking options and I sleep in a hammock.

I retired my BushBuddy Ultra because of the fiddle factor and again am using an alcohol stove.

The one piece of gear that is the focus of activity is my hammock.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#96879 - 06/11/08 09:15 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: lori]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
lori

About your friend. I too have a friend who insists on taking a couple of the small 8 oz sealed water bottles because they are safe, but no canteen or anything. She always wears black even in hot sunny summer days. She thinks she is very smart. I do not hike or camp with her anymore. Its not worth babysitting and carrying extra stuff for her.

And Lori, you are such a silly paranoid goose - why carry all of that etra stuff? You could take a book bag also.

I've seen many a tough hiker totalled by Nevada Falls. Gee lets take the SLR and all of the lenses and the big binoculars to enjoy the view from the top. I think its 22 miles round trip with like 6,000 feet elevation change going up Half dome. Could your friend hike 22 miles in a day where its flat? Does she live at sea level?

Maybe you should trell her that you're not hiking with her anymore unless she changes her ways. She could get you in trouble trying to help her.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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12/10/17 01:06 PM
How cheap can you go?
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12/05/17 07:07 PM
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Greetings - and a question
by valongi
Yesterday at 11:35 AM
Just found out about UCO candles
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11/30/17 08:41 AM
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Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
Plant based insulation...
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11/18/17 02:58 PM
lightest grommets to use
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