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#96830 - 05/27/08 10:17 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Dryer
Everybody seemed to ignore the quote I put in there about scalpels not being that sharp, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />in fact no sharper than a shaving razor. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />There are much much sharper blades used by surgeons than scalpels, but the cut of a scalpel is not perfect because the slightly rough cut closes better than a cut from an extremely sharp instrument. A cut from a saw blade as an extreme will scar, but it will close quickly and stop bleading unless it goes to the bone, which is normal for a saw. A razor cut may heal with less scar, but it will bleed a lot more before it closes. I suppose you've cut your neck shaving with a single edged razor. Razor cuts do not stop bleeding quickly. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Gee perhaps the people here who like razor sharp knifes are too young to have been cut shaving? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />(Now thats an example of a troll...) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96831 - 05/27/08 10:32 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Listen UP you young whippersnappers!

When we talk about "inexperienced campers" in today's backpacking world we really old timers (60+) kinda feel sorry for them because they have been "deprived" -

i.e. deprived of being a BoyScout in the '50s when we caried REAL framless packs, canvas Boy Scout Yucca Packs. And we slept in rectangular, kapok filled (yep!) sleeping bags that we ROLLED up, eventually pulling all that keen kapok filling to the foot of the bag. We laid that bag on a ground cloth. MATTRESSES? We didn't need no stinkin' mattresses!

So when we "senior backpackers" think of inexperienced campers we know what REAL inexperience is. Lordy, nobody back then had any real understanding of good equipment. Kelty and Camp Trails and Gerry and Holubar had to invent a lot of what we have now.

Inexperienced? We had lots and lots of "experience" in the '50s - just mostly the wrong experience. But here we are today, those of us that weren't carried away by the BIG mosquitos. And is it any wonder we survivors today drool over the fantastic backpacking items available to us. We old timer "survivors" are the backpackers with a valid reason for being addicted gearheads (as if a valid reason is needed).

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#96832 - 05/28/08 05:21 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Quote:
There are much much sharper blades used by surgeons than scalpels, but the cut of a scalpel is not perfect because the slightly rough cut closes better than a cut from an extremely sharp instrument


I didn't miss that. And I agree, there are sharper blades than scalpels (hematomes come to mind) but my doc friend scratched his head when I asked about that. He wants sharp! Said a clean cut is easier to suture and makes less scaring. But again, what's sharp? To me, with a pocket knife, hair popping sharp is the stopping point. With an axe, I want a lightly honed working edge that will handle abuse...barely enough to pass the finger nail test.

Quote:
I suppose you've cut your neck shaving with a single edged razor.

I shave with a 5/8ths Dovo straight razor (cuz it's fun!) . Interestingly, I cut myself way less than with a "safety" double edged razor and those plastic razors are so sharp they 'tome' off layers of skin in a boo boo, exposing lots of blood vessels, which is why the bleeding. The straight razor mishap makes a thin cut barely into the surface of the skin UNLESS you draw it across the skin. Then you'll probably need stitches. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Under magnification, the blade has tiny serrations from the grain of the steel which cut like saw. I have a surgical injector blade straight razor and the blades are made by a Japanese company called Feather, who also makes surgical cutting instruments as well. It's edge under magnification looks like polished chrome. That sucker will cut ye real good! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> They put a fancy screen mesh on the blade right up to the edge for safety.

Hows that for a total hijack? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96833 - 05/28/08 05:24 AM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: 300winmag]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Aye! Those were the days!
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/four_yorkshiremen.htm
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96834 - 05/28/08 06:25 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
jshannon Offline
member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 410
Loc: North Texas
In my years reading this forum, I've seen Jim do this a number of times where he warns of impending doom to anyone wanting to backpack in the ultralight weight range. And in the same post he will boast about how he has all the experience and can do the impossible. Hang around long enough and it'll happen again right before winter.

Yeah, my response may offend, but it's happened repeatedly over the years and gets old seeing it.
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Ten Essential Groups

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#96835 - 05/28/08 09:17 AM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Dryer]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Paul, that was classic. off topic: Lad, will ye be postin' any news about the trip to the old country?
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#96836 - 05/28/08 09:33 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: jshannon]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Sarcasm:

We've still got late spring conditons, and the temperature is supposed to range from 57 to 78 degrees and there is a chance of thunderstorms, according to current weekend weather forecast for Pennsylvania at a point near the Appalachian Trail..

For the next four months, this sort of weather, or warmer conditions, are expected to prevail on most of the AT.

When walking, it's possible to slip and fall. In doing so, it's possible to break bones or dislocate joints. Experience and training in walking can increase safety, and some people OUGHT NOT CHEW GUM while attempting this.

One can die of sleep apnea, a condition that results in excessive snoring. Medical training and years of experience can be helpful in diagnosing this condition.

Obviously, one could also be hit by lightning.. Advanced physics (are?) required to fully understand the dynamics of the situation. This requires at least several years of training at the university level. Fortunately, flash floods of the sort found in desert canyons don't occur in this region, so additional hydrological training is unnecessary for safety.

Getting more than a couple of miles from a paved road is rare to impossible in this region. There are no dangerous wild animals.

Cliffs or rock ledges in Pennsylvania are rare. Training, preferably from a certified instructor, can help one recognize dangerous terrain. Years of experience in this immediate region would be less helpful, because there isn't any dangerous terrain.

Swimming is quite dangerous, and for this reason, very wise and experienced authorities have carefully banned this activity, unless a trained and certified lifeguard is in attendance. Otherwise, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS ACTIVITY. Read all rules. You may endanger yourself as well as highly experienced rescue personnel, who have families, and much better things to do with their time than become part of a tragedy caused by arrogant foolishness and inexperience.

The crime rate on the trail is very low, although Penn State offers helpful instruction in criminology provided by Ph.D recipients, and police and other public safety authorities can be made available for a free consultation, IF you know how to contact them.

Fire is also dangerous. You can be burned. This may be painful, and has resulted in unnecessary fatalities. My girl friend has difficulty operating a cigarette lighter, but fortunately, I've had lots of experience, although no actual training.

Be safe.

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#96837 - 05/28/08 11:33 AM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Dryer]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Paul,

Aaaarrr me Hearties! I concurr, the old days were hard but the hardships gave us character. That's why so many of us Old Timers are referred to as "characters"... with a sly snicker.

Snicker indeed! Go ahead and snicker ye soft ne'r-do-wells. But it is we Old Timers, those of us who lived in a shoebox - of cardboard - in the middle of the road - who have the real grit in our gizzard. WE don't mind a bit of sand in our beer. WE don't mind cooking over a smokey fire, hacking and tearing up,. WE don't mind living in the same clothes for seven days (tho others of lesser grit quail at our passing by then and mutter something about "hygene")

Yes, WE, the Old Timers, have paved the path ye newbies now tread. So pay homage to our sacrifice in the name of backpacking, because WE are the TRUE campers! AAaarrrr!

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#96838 - 05/28/08 11:39 AM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: 300winmag]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
You forgot to mention how you had to walk 10 miles to school, in the snow, uphill both ways, with your brother on your back... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

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#96839 - 05/28/08 11:59 AM too much [Re: jshannon]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I must have missed my antidepressant when I wrote this. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jim


Edited by Jimshaw (05/29/08 06:58 PM)
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96840 - 05/28/08 12:15 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Glenn]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
... with your brother on your back... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Yeah, but was he heavy? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#96841 - 05/28/08 01:06 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: phat]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Thanks for the Warning....!!! THAT IS SO KIND OF YOU!!!


You just never know when Yet Another Scrape with Death might happen ...OUT THERE............

...Only the Bravest and Most Wise Survive........

So many of Our Trails are littered with the bones of Boy Scouts who failed to earn their Merit Badges. (Very Important Training).

Do you have any good tips on repressing the Gag Reflex?????

Let's start a thread on dead boy scouts.............Terrible waste of youth.


But hiking is such an exciting way to spend hours and hours......that it makes up for all the TERRIBLE RISKS WE CONTINUALLY FACE..... No?..

Hey....let's face it, you just become an Adrenaline Junky............

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#96842 - 05/28/08 01:21 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: 300winmag]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:
those of us who lived in a shoebox - of cardboard - in the middle of the road


Shoebox??? Luxury. We were evicted from our shoebox.

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#96843 - 05/28/08 03:11 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Trailrunner]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, Carry our brothers to work in a backpack with barbed wired for straps, work twenty-nine hours a day down at themill, and the pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
....
And you try to tell the young people of today that.... they won't believe you!
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#96844 - 05/28/08 04:50 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: phat]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Nah - he's not heavy, he's my brother. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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#96845 - 05/29/08 04:03 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: phat]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Bloody hell, I had Javascript turned off and was reading in non-threaded mode and didn't even see
that Dryer's link pointed to the whole sketch <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oops. Mea Culpa.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#96846 - 05/29/08 04:24 PM Re: there are campers out there (back in my day..) [Re: Glenn]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Ahh! The good ole days. I was a scout in the early 60's and used to snow camp. Make our own lean too to sleep in for 2 nights. Build a fire back wall. Sleep on pine baughs. I had a ruc sack on a homemade aluminum frame. Had minimal gear etc. I used to just use a piece of visqueen as my tarp. I never owned a tent until I turned 50. I used to hear all the stories from my Dad's experience as a youth with several older brothers. How during the depression, he wore hand me downs and had to walk to school 5 miles. Kick the can was a fun game and rolling a wheel with a stick was a good time. These kids today. They don't have a clue. Unless they are exposed to the great outdoors they will be missing out on a large and beautiful part of life.
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Enjoy your next trip...

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#96847 - 05/29/08 04:39 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Fiddleback Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 478
Loc: Northern Rockies
If, while practicing UL, you leave needed items at home -- you are doing it wrong. Ultra light, IMO, is just that... light ...it doesn't mean doing without. Those who don't carry necessary gear and otherwise violate the "Be Prepared" mantra are, at the least, foolish

I've not attained 'ultra lightness' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but at about 14-15 lbs base weight I'm carrying less than half the weight I once did. And today I'm more comfortable, better fed, and better dressed for the vagaries of weather on the trail (with more toys to amuse me) than I ever was.

My group of tent mates in my Scout troop had a saying, "Any fool can be uncomfortable." That applies whether the pack weighs 5 pounds or 50.

FB
_________________________
"...inalienable rights...include the right to a clean and healthful environment..." Montana Constitution

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#96848 - 05/29/08 06:56 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Fiddleback]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi Fiddleback.
It sounds like you have very carefully put together gear that works for you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />After you decide what to leave at home and what to take it becomes a relatively simple matter of choosing the individual pieces. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

whats important is that you have the experience to use that gear effectively. Its easier to be warm and comfortable with a 20 pound pack.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96849 - 05/29/08 11:13 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Jimmy, says:

"Theres nothing wrong with lacking money, knowledge, or common sense as long as you don't claim that your opinion is just as good as those who do have experience."

So anybody whose experience [according to Jim's arbitrary and imaginative view] is inferior to Jim's then, therefore has, ipso facto, an INFERIOR OPINION TO JIM's...

GOT THAT? Might it be true....???

Explicitly, this inferior group, according to Jim, includes Ray Jardine,.. We await the various published accounts, biographies etc. for both Jardine and Jim....that are doubtless forthcoming from publishers.

In addition to Jardine, this inferior group, by implication, also includes the "Little People" as they are sometimes known. Perhaps these are the vast number of people to whom James addresses himself, as the true Populist that we all hunger for.

Regardless, once can suppose that James has some very short list of people in his head, that he approves of for advise.

But mainly I think, he has some narrow ideas, that are based on his narrow interpretation of his own personal experience, which is doubtless significant. Unfortunately his thinking is also based on something else, that perhaps nobody at all, including James, fully understands......
JIMS adds, helpfully, that it's ....."just my $.02 cents." .......

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#96850 - 05/30/08 06:40 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: johndavid]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1736
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Quote:
So anybody whose experience [according to Jim's arbitrary and imaginative view] is inferior to Jim's then, therefore has, ipso facto, an INFERIOR OPINION TO JIM's...


Easy there! I think all of us feel that we are experienced to one degree or another. And, most of us are. What is hard for an individual to judge is just how experienced anyone is, including themselves; the ego gets in the way. The amount of time someone has spent involved in an activity does not really correlate with experience. There is a continuum between, for example, twenty years of experience and a year of experience repeated twenty times. I don't think anyone is qualified to say where they, or others, fall on this line.

Sociological research has repeatedly shown that experience will improve a persons performance up to a point (generally around ten years); beyond that point, added time tends to restrict the scope of a persons response to the unexpected (the autopilot effect). And yes, I am most likely a candidate for the autopilot effect myself. The book "Extreme Survival" illustrates the effect quite well.

I think it is presumptuous, at best, for any of us to judge others by what they say; what they actually do is a much better guide. Most of us here have a pretty good idea of what Jimshaw has done and is doing. Few of us, if any, have an idea of your resumé. Sure, Jim can be a cantankerous old toad; he has earned the right; not yet as sure about you.


Edited by Pika (05/30/08 06:45 AM)
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#96851 - 05/30/08 07:30 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Pika]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
I've got plenty of experience in my relatively forgiving little neck of the woods down here, but if I wanted to tackle something really tough, I'd want Wandering Daisy with me, or Phat, or Jim (if he promises not to start a shoot-out) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The troll-in-question's real problem is that even those of us without great reams of experience in more extreme environments can tell he's full of it to the eyeballs despite the names he drops.

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#96852 - 05/30/08 07:37 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Hector]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
I've got plenty of experience in my relatively forgiving little neck of the woods down here, but if I wanted to tackle something really tough, I'd want Wandering Daisy with me, or Phat, or Jim (if he promises not to start a shoot-out) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The troll-in-question's real problem is that even those of us without great reams of experience in more extreme environments can tell he's full of it to the eyeballs despite the names he drops.


Hey, don't lump me in with those two! Heck they're practically rope and bolts crowd! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Although I'd take on Jim at the Shooting Range any day - I suspect WD would hike us both into the dust - I look at her trip reports with green envy...
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#96853 - 05/30/08 08:02 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Hey, don't lump me in with those two! Heck they're practically rope and bolts crowd!


No, don't take phat. Take me. I know everything about everything, with the exception of most things. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Actually, I learn something new or effect a skill/gear refinement EVERY time I go out. My gear morphs as does my thinking. Closed minded inflexibility will get ya killed/injured or can make you really uncomfortable...and you won't make many friends, either.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I try to hang with people more skilled than me if at all possible. Lots of folks on this forum that fit that bill. "Soar with eagles, walk with turkeys...."
I do subscribe to the "1 year of experience 30 times" mantra, no expert I know is doing what they did 30 years ago, or even last year.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96854 - 05/30/08 08:03 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: phat]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
> Hey, don't lump me in with those two!

But, you I could maybe keep up with! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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