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#96805 - 05/25/08 11:04 AM there are campers out there
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
There are campers out there who desperately want to believe that anyone can go anywhere and do anything with no skill, training, equipment or common sense. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> The UL craze is driven by folks who read Rays stuff and BELIEVE that carrying less gear is SAFER than being prepared. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> These people lack any real experience <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />and lack the money to buy real quality gear, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> and want to believe that they are so much smarter than those who take the time to learn or who waste money on gear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> They are so totally naive that they ignore the benefit of experienced people who have survived in the wilderness because they had good gear and knowledge. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Why we let an inexperienced camper troll here and give them any respect at all is beyond me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />They don't want advice, they want to show you that you are stupid for thinking the wilderness is any diffeent than a walk in Central park. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

BTW this goes for people who swear you should hike barefooted, hike in Tevas off trail, leave all warm clothes at home and think Tarps are just as good as a mountaineering tent in a storm.

Can you say immature inexperienced dreamer?
Theres nothing wrong with lacking money, knowledge, or common sense as long as you don't claim that your opinion is just as good as those who do have experience. OTOH, didn't we all start off as wet behind the ears campers with inadequate equipment? Only some of us realised that was an inferior condition that should be changed as soon as possible.

Like many experienced folks here, I CAN go out with little or no gear and I DO know how to make my way in the wilderness, BUT it came from years of experince while carrying the right gear and I would do it as a fun exercise not because I think its smart to travel with little gear and I certainly would not suggest it to a newbie.
just my $.02
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96806 - 05/25/08 11:32 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Are you talking about someone in particular?? I don't think the inexperienced are "trolling". I think, especially the young ones, are acting.....'young' (owning two teenagers and having been one myself). I've noticed when one makes a goofy statement showing their inexperience, some folks here are quick to jump on it. Then the new person sits back and either reads and learns (a blessing) or moves on and practices becoming a Darwin statistic.
Most of us got here after years of being over equipped and inexperienced, but as experience developed, the equipment shrinks or becomes more targeted and smarter decisions are made. I've yet to scratch the surface on 'knowing it all' but I do know when I'm in over my head.

ps....Jim, I just got back from two weeks hiking in Ireland and DID hike off trail in my running sandals. Through the heather, bogs, sheep poo, and all. Delightful!
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96807 - 05/25/08 01:46 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Jim,

I've seen K-Mart Kampers on the AT and felt a bit sorry for them. But if their equipment holds up past their initial blunders like building a campfire downwind of their nylon tent, carrying a way too heavy stove, taking cotton clothing and not having waterproof stuff sacks or pack cover while hiking in a downpour then MAYBE, just maybe they will actually be gently enlightened by experienced backpackers they meet.

The big thing is to encorage them to stick with backpacking. Later they will have to face the sticker shock of purchasing truly good backpacking equipment. (However, if they own a nice motor boat then the cost of good quality backpacking equipment will seem trivial.) heh, heh > "boat" - A hole in the water into which one pours money.

But, yes, I've seen these woefully unprepared (skill wise) people who have new - but heavy & cheap - everything and now have to live with it for a while.
This is where current Boy Scout training DOES help to some extent because all the Scouts in our troop that I used to mentor were taught things like Leave No Trace ethics, routefinding, basic camp setup and proper equipment choice and use.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#96808 - 05/25/08 05:15 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Well I got a 5 pound rucksack, is this too heavy for you guys ?? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Dimitri

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#96809 - 05/25/08 05:38 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Heintooga Offline
member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 470
Loc: GSMNP
Quote:
Why we let an inexperienced camper troll here and give them any respect at all is beyond me.


You can't hurt my feelings <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
...ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein... (Jeremiah)

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#96810 - 05/25/08 06:15 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Heintooga]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Heinitoga
I don't mean to offend anyone. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I try to be as gentle non-judgemental as I can. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I was simply saying that certain topics are just trolls and are not worth responding to, much less wasting time trying to show a troller the error of their ways. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

And somebody asked if 5 pounds is too heavy for a pack - nope, not if thats what you want to carry, its your decision and your back friend, no moral judgements <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96811 - 05/25/08 06:28 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dimitri]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 998
Loc: Australia

A 5 pound rucksack ? Are you out of your mind ?
What's wrong with using a plastic shopping bag ?
Franco
Thanks Jim for some uncommon sense....

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#96812 - 05/25/08 07:11 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Franco]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Thats the weight that is quoted for a Large USGI Alice Pack, Frame, Kidney Pad, and straps. Which is my do it all "longer hikes, trips, and hunting" pack. I might be out of my mind, but it works well.

I got a lighter pack, 1/3rd the volume (1,500 cu in vs. 3,800 cu in) and no metal frame but its made out of heavier 1000 Cordura Nylon and in general overly built, then the thiner ALICE pack materials. Not sure what that weights out to probably about 2-3 pounds.

Dimitri

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#96813 - 05/25/08 07:13 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Franco]
Heintooga Offline
member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 470
Loc: GSMNP
But you folks don't understand, I have a Bowie Knife and a booklet on edible plants. I'll be OK!!! Plastic bags are over rated, don't ya'll agree?
_________________________
...ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein... (Jeremiah)

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#96814 - 05/25/08 07:18 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
I'm the guy with the heavy pack, as for it hurting my back compared to other packs, this pack loaded up to ~40 pounds is barely noticeable.

Got to love that thick Kidney pad. And padded straps. And that waist belt keeps everything "in position".

Dimitri

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#96815 - 05/25/08 09:12 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dimitri]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2862
Loc: Portland, OR
Dimitri, there's an old saying: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

As applied to your five pound pack, the proof of its utility is in what it does for you when you load it and carry it. If you are satisfied with it, then why should anyone else complain or tell you it isn't good enough?

The real reason for a site like TLB and all the questions posted and answers given is for the people who want help or advice, who are not satisfied with their current way of doing things and are looking for something better. In other words, they have tasted their pudding and think it tastes lousy!

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#96816 - 05/26/08 04:13 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: aimless]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Cause constructive criticism gives me ideas to improve apon, nothing is prefect in the world. And certainly things can and do change.

We all may have our idea of perfect in our heads, but sometimes discussion helps us give use a better understand of new techniques and methods we never thought of before. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dimitri

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#96817 - 05/26/08 05:54 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dimitri]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I can't recall ever describing 40 lbs as barely noticeable. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#96818 - 05/26/08 07:44 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2752
Loc: California
OK. I fell off the technology train several miles back. What is a "Troll" and what is "trolling"???

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#96819 - 05/26/08 07:58 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: wandering_daisy]
pennys Offline


Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 2842
Loc: Washington
Think fishing.
Trolling on the 'net is basically posting something designed to get people riled up up, contentions from the start, ie, casting bait for a reaction.

from wiki
Quote:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
_________________________
tips for making gear

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#96820 - 05/26/08 08:32 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: pennys]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2752
Loc: California
Thanks! All this new internet etiquitte is interesting. Also, since I do not text message, some of the acronyms used here confuse me. Wow, that just shows my age!

If you think someone is "trolling" why don't you just ask "are you trolling?" A little controversy is OK with me as long as it does not overshadow productive discussion.

Jimshaw - I agree with you in many cases. The amount and type of gear required is really dependent on the region. When I moved to Californina from Utah-Wyoming, it took me several years to realize that I could pare down on clothing. My daughter's friend took her backpacking in the desert - she said it was the weirdest feeling being outdoors without rain gear! I've nearly got myself killed in the desert due to my igonrance of the critical issues of water (or lack thereof). I agree with you that when you enter a new environment, oversupply and then cut down as you gain experience.

A lot of trolling is adolescent bravado. It is rampant on the climbing forums (such as supertopo forum). One reason I like our forum here is that it is well moderated and everyone is polite. Thank you moderators! Thanks to all for keeping it civilized!

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#96821 - 05/26/08 12:49 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: pennys]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Quote:
... is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community....



uh.....Jim? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#96822 - 05/26/08 02:21 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
With some diligent detective work I was able to obtain a photo of an actual internet troll in action.

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#96823 - 05/26/08 03:06 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Barely noticeable compared to other packs with even less weight then that.

I've had many uncomfortable packs in my time. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dimitri

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#96824 - 05/27/08 06:41 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: wandering_daisy]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
Also, since I do not text message, some of the acronyms used here confuse me. Wow, that just shows my age!


I don't believe in Text Messaging. Why do it? If you are already holding your phone, and you are sending someone a message to their phone, why not just dial the number and actually TALK to them? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> My younger brother, and many his age and younger text all the time. He says that he does it because he knows the other person is busy. I thought that is what the message service is for, ie leave a voice message. Texting seems to be a step backwards in the technology department. Last I checked, sending a telegram by morse code died with the invention of the telephone when people could actually talk to each other.

Back to the topic at hand. I agree, this post is trolling. Not that the other wasn't. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#96825 - 05/27/08 07:28 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: finallyME]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Just to stay off topic, texting has its place. If you take public transit and have listened to a teenager angrily break up with her boyfriend via cel phone on the seat next to you, you'll be a fan of text messaging.

Personally though, I'm not important enough to need to talk to anyone who can't wait until I get to work and log onto my backpacking forums <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
http://lighterload.blogspot.com/

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#96826 - 05/27/08 07:32 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
If someone is asking if their 5 pound pack is too heavy, they actually want your opinion. It's okay to say it's fine, but it's also ok to say "oh my god that's 4.5 pounds too heavy!" If the poster didn't want an opinion, they wouldn't ask on a public forum.

That said, a lot of us (myself included) are guilty of offering unsolicited advice. Most of us mean well, and I think this board is pretty tame when it comes to trolling. Easiest thing to do is ignore it, an unanswered troll is just a dead topic that will be forgotten after a week (the default search criteria.)
_________________________
http://lighterload.blogspot.com/

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#96827 - 05/27/08 11:40 AM Re: there are campers out there [Re: finallyME]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Lol...finallyme, I am smiling <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My friends and I are bad - we are all in our late twenties early thirties and busy. So at home we all talk via IM or email. I can count on one hand how many times I have talked to each friend on the phone. None of us call each other. With IM and email we can talk as we have time.
Doesn't feel weird....just how we embraced technology <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Texting kills my hands though!
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#96828 - 05/27/08 07:05 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Dryer
RE: TROLL

I'm not going to go back and quote, but merely being controversial does not make a post a troll. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />A troll is intended to generate immediate emmotional response from people rejecting the concept so they write all kinds of uptight stuff so the author can snicker at how mad he or she made people. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Saying "my 75 pound pack (empty)" is better than anything on the market <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />- ( a troll) would be designed to get a whole bunch of people to write in saying "youre full it". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />If I write in and say I've just actualy made a 75 backpack from 2x4s and show a photo, its not a troll. It just means I'm stupid. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Suggesting that a dull knife is safer than a sharp one is my honest feeling after years of experience with knives. Others feel differently, but the controversy is intellectual not one of seeking to make fun of others for their opinions or differing experience. One is thought provoking, one is inflamatory. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The inflamatory one is a troll. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#96829 - 05/27/08 08:28 PM Re: there are campers out there [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
I know yer not a troll Jim....just trying to solicit a response... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Maybe I'm the troll! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sharp/Dull knife.....So, what exactly is 'sharp'? My straight razors are SHARP! But not as sharp as my Feather brand commercial surgical razors. Compared to those, my pocket knives are hopelessly dull....but still pop hairs. What's dull, what's sharp? Gimmie a standard?
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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