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#94726 - 04/29/08 08:50 PM Re: Question about cookware [Re: hootyhoo]
Anand Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/26/08
Posts: 1
Loc: Utrecht, The Netherlands
A dutch backpackers magazine did a test a few years back, and the fastest was the MSR alpine set, slowest the Hard anodized Aluminium with 50% slower then the stainless steel. Ti was somewhere inbetween.

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#94727 - 04/30/08 05:54 AM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Roocketman]
drow42 Offline
member

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Washington, DC
Quote:

...
Many of these "metal to metal" comparisons are in danger of combustion because of hot air being freely circulated. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


If it makes you feel better, I too have a PhD in MatSci, so I am not totally talking out of my, umm ear. But I have found that in the world of matsci, often practical experience (which you definitely have more of than me, I just do fundamental research) outweighs degrees when it comes to practical matters such as these. Just glad to have another metal-head on the boards.

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#94728 - 04/30/08 07:39 AM Re: Titanium Burning --- Re: Question about cookwa [Re: Roocketman]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Thanks for all the suggested reading. I will definitely try and add these to my collection and reading list. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#94729 - 04/30/08 07:41 AM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Roocketman]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

Precisely what Alzheimer's is is still unknown. But we do know how to spell it, finally. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Speak for yourself. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am still working on that one. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#94730 - 04/30/08 08:15 AM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Roocketman]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
Precisely what Alzheimer's is is still unknown. But we do know how to spell it, finally.


Unfortunately, I've been getting an up close and personal look at it the past three or four years. My father is afflicted with it (at least as far as doctors are able to diagnose it).

I have a hard time making jokes about it anymore. There's nothing funny about the ordeal.

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#94731 - 04/30/08 08:36 AM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Anand]
PhilBiker Offline
member

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 172
Loc: Washington DC area
I'm not sure what speed has to do with this. My concern is how well the heat is dispersed so that I can actually cook my powdered eggs on my stove. I would rather have the heat evenly dispersed as opposed to hotspots in the pan which cause my powdered eggs and hashbrowns to burn in places where they are raw in others.
_________________________
PhilBIker

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#94732 - 04/30/08 09:53 AM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Paddy_Crow]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Paddy,

Sorry about your dad. However, a sense of humor will make your burden a little lighter.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#94733 - 04/30/08 10:56 AM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Anand]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Anand <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hiya
welcome. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I think maybe you may want to go research that test a bit. The people around here are pretty sophisticated and throwing around a few vague numbers is not gonna buy you a lot of credibilty. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> There are so many variables and have been so many tests that unless you can quote the test results, your input has little value - STILL thanks for sharing and don't go away with your feelings hurt. We always need new members with new ideas. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As people have said - there is more than heating water with speed to be considered while cooking. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#94734 - 04/30/08 12:58 PM Re: translation in progress [Re: Jimshaw]
jorgoz Offline
member

Registered: 04/25/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Belgium
I'm working on the translation of the magazine test anand is talking about so all ya english folk can have a read. Not a lot of numbers or tech talk so the numbersfreaks or technicians amongs us will be dissapointed, but more a practical approach. Main theme is about which kind of cookware is the easiest to use in the backcountry, not necessarely the fastest cooktime or lightest.

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#94735 - 04/30/08 01:16 PM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Paddy_Crow]
jorgoz Offline
member

Registered: 04/25/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Belgium
PC,

Sorry to hear about your dad.

No offense to anyone though,
but imho just shows how uterly unimportant all this jabbering is. But i agree with food, in that humor can in part put things in perspective and make life's confrontations easier to handle and to get through them.

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#94736 - 04/30/08 06:12 PM Re: Question about cookware [Re: jorgoz]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Thanks for the kind thoughts.

Oh, my humor is intact. But I can tell you that when someone jokes about having a "senior moment" or "early Alzheimer's," I just can't laugh. It's hard to come up with an analogy, it would be like someone joking about cancer when a loved one is terminally ill with it.

What keeps me in good spirits is remembering that my father had a long, happy life and he's surrounded by people that care. It's almost as if he's already died, because he's no longer the person he was.

Back to cookware...

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#94737 - 05/01/08 09:32 AM Re: Question about cookware [Re: PhilBiker]
Paul_C Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Beaverton, Orygun
I find anodized aluminum spreads pretty good. Although the stove itself has a lot to do with it. For instance, I can't make even pancakes with an MSR Pocket Rocket, but my buddy's Superfly and my Snow Peak Gigapower.

i really don;t care for titanium for actual cooking anything besides water.
_________________________
Jeeper - NW mountain roamer

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#94738 - 05/07/08 04:01 PM Re: translation in progress [Re: jorgoz]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee

I can tell you that I have both and the titanium would win hands down ever time for me. For me, it is easier to clean (non-stick aluminum sure isn't non-stick). Depends on the thickness of the pots and pans but I still think that titanium is lighter too. I just like the titanium better and I have used aluminum for thirty years before I started using titanium. The aluminum works great but the titanium works better for me...Hope that helps....Happy Trekking...sabre11004...

The first step that you take will be of those that get you there !!!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#94739 - 05/07/08 04:05 PM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Jimshaw]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee


I thought that all water was "liquid'. Ha Ha Ha !!!!!! Hope that helped....Happy Trekking...sabre11004...

The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there !!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#94740 - 05/07/08 04:17 PM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Paddy_Crow]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee

That means that titanium can take approximately 60% more heat than aluminum huh??? That's the number that I got any way. When you are cooking directly over "fire" I think that I would still want the titanium...Hope that helps....Happy Trekking...sabre11004....

The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there !!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#94741 - 05/07/08 04:25 PM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Paddy_Crow]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee


I am a little confused. I don't really know what magnesium has to do with this conversation but I guess that I can roll with it. Besides I don't think that you will find many cooking utensils made out of magnesium any way. So again, what's the point? Any way...Hope that helps...Happy Trekking...sabre1004...

I am kind of like the matsci engineer. I am more interested in how they actually work, not the experience that others have with them. Conditions and many other things can have a play on all this stuff that is being talked about here...Including the experience of the hiker and the quality of all of his gear put together to for a well working kit for that individual...Hope that helps...Happy Trekking...sabre11004...

The first step that you take will be of those that get you there !!!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

Top
#94742 - 05/07/08 05:23 PM Re: Question about cookware [Re: sabre11004]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
The conversation drifted into the possibility of metals burning, and magnesium was cited as an example of a metal that burns.

Top
#94743 - 05/09/08 01:46 PM Re: Question about cookware [Re: Paddy_Crow]
wildthing Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/02
Posts: 982
Loc: Victoria, B.C.
This and other threads keep having engineering and other credentials being passed around as criteria for having an informed opinion. Luckily, I have my advanced lightweight backpacking materials course from EU and some experience in gear building and testing. Hah!

What I think really matters is using a variety of cookware out there and figuring out what works. I wouldn't concentrate on the technical specs of why things work or don't work but rather what really happened when you fired up that 20,000 btu stove with the .6oz titanium pot. Fer example!

Lighten up everyone, especially here on the TLB!

<Earthling, this is your cue to make a joke>
_________________________
Listen to the trees in the wind

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#94744 - 05/10/08 03:06 AM Re: translation finally finished [Re: jorgoz]
jorgoz Offline
member

Registered: 04/25/06
Posts: 151
Loc: Belgium
Sorry for the delay and typo's if any, but earning some extra cash for my next walk <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Aluminium is dead, which type of pot ?

After a long walk or bike-ride there's nothing nicer than hot meal. And then there's
nothing more annoying than scrubbing an hour to get the last bits and pieces from
your pot. In short : which type of pot should you take with you on your travels ?

This is not a test to determine which is the best cook-set. This is a test though in
which we try to find out from which material a pot should best be made of. There
are roughly 3 different base-materials.

Most common pot is an AL one. AL doesn't weigh much, is durable and cheap
and conducts heat reasonably. Cons : difficult to clean and vulnerable.
Second most common material is SS. SS is strong, cheap and cleans easily,
but has as biggest disadvantage that it's heavy.
And then you've got TI pots. TI is superlight, strong, expensive and a bad heat
conductor.

Relatively new is Hard Anodised AL : the AL has undergone a treatment in which
the outer layer has been hardened. Hardened AL is stronger than steel, but still
has the weight advantage.

To conclude : Duosal from Trangia. Duosal is a combination of AL on the outside
and SS on the inside.

Just as at home there are outdoor cook-pot with an anti-stick coating. The brand-
name Tefal is obvious, but actually we must talk about Teflon. Teflon is a brand-
name from Dupont for a chemical combination Poly-Tetra-Fluoro-Ethylene or
PTFE. Teflon has the property that other materials don't adhere tot its surface and
thus making Teflon an ideal anti-stick coating. You'll encounter Teflon from
Dupont is pots, but not in Tefal cookware - nowadays the most know producer of
anti-stick coated cookware, has an own anti-stick coating.


The test
Like we said, we're looking for the material that is the easiest to work with, not
which brand is the best. The sets are chosen so we get an idea of the different
materials. From every set we took 1 pot with a minimal volume of 1 litre. The test
consists of 3 parts :
Cook-time : on the home gas-stove we bring 1 litre of water to the boil and note it's
time. Why on a home gas-stove ? Because then we aren't confronted with
diminishing gas-pressure and thus the heat-output is constant for every pot. By
the way, the cook-times should be viewed as an indication and in relation to each
other. A real outdoor stove does deliver considerably more heat-output and thus
shorter cook-times. The faster, the better for the material.

Burnfactor : in the pot, nice softly cooked macaroni was heated with a little bit of
sunflower oil. In most cases heating meant baking and in a number of cases
burning.

Cleaning : After the baking we looked how fast we could get the burned macaroni
from the pot bottom. The easier, the better.


Bo-Camp AL
The test :
AL is light and cheap, but that's not all. When we baked the macaroni, it
immediately got stuck to the bottom and started to burn. Afterwards it was barely
removable. Scrubbing alone, it hurt the fingernails, and with a scrubpad we got the
mac out. Plus a layer of AL, because the dishwater was quite gray.
Our opinion : Light and cheap, these are the only advantages. There are a lot
better pans for sale.


Tefal Bivouac AL + Non-Stick
The test :
These pans are also made of AL but it conducts a bit better than the average AL
pot, therefore the quicker cook-time. The mac to burn didn't succeed ! The non-
stick coating did it's work. The mac got crispy though. Cleaning was child-play :
turn pot up-side-down and the mac fell out. Cleaning afterwards wasn't necessary,
although according to the manufacturer you should. The only con : the pan is as
slick on the outside bottom as it's on the inside and can therefore easily slide of
your stove. Our opinion : Super ! Never again without and anti-stick coat in the
outdoors.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gossip and backtalk
Long there has been thought that PTFE in pots was poisonous when the coating
loosened (flaked). This is a fable. As with the story of parts of AL would cause
Alzheimer. Also for this there is no proof and thus falls under the column gossip
and backtalk.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trangia Tundra Duosal
The test :
The pot is made of Duossal, a combination of AL on the outside and SS on the
inside. The cook-time was average. The mac burned though and became stuck,
but the cleaning went easily. With a pot-scrubber - that left a bit of scratches -
everything came of in no time. In the same set is a pot and pan with a non-stick
coating. Our opinion : Not the lightest, not the quickest, burned but easily
cleaned. Duossal as pot material isn't all that crazy.


Anodised AL GSI Double Boiler
The test :
Anodising is a technique in which the AL surface is hardened. According to GSI it
becomes twice as hard as the surface of AL. The long cook-time is largely due to
the small diameter : the flames went up the sides of the pot. Pros : a high pot
does retain the heat better. The mac burned quickly and was nicely scorched.
Cleaning was, because of the small pot, a crime, but no AL-flakes came of.
Our opinion : H-A AL is the new material in pots; it combines a low weight with
durability. An anti-stick coating is a definite plus.


Optimus terra anodised aluminium with anti-stick coating
The test :
Just like GSI an anodised pot : the AL surface is hardened. Optimus has also
added an anti-stick coating. The cook-time is average. This is the combination for baking cheese and mac. The mac got crunchy; but didnít become stuck to the
bottom. Cleaning was a pleasure. Empty the pot and wipe clean. Marginally
better than the anti-stick coating from Tefal. On top of that the pot was more
stable on the burner. Our opinion : Hard anodised AL with an anti-stick coating is
the combo that from now on we will be taking on our trips. Functional, easy in
every aspect, though a little heavy.


Snow peak multi compact TI
The test :
Ti is extremely light and strong and therefore seems an ideal material. Two buts :
Itís expensive and is a bad heat conductor, you have to put more energy into the
pot. And you have to carry this energy with you. The somewhat longer than
average cooktime is explained by this. Baking the mac went quite well : it got
stock rocksolid to the pot. Cleanig was hard, only AL performed worse. There
were black spots left in the pot. Our opinion : TI is extremely strong, and allas,
very precious, or shall we say expensive. Heat transfer is less compared to the
cheap AL. Cleaning could be better, and black spots in an expensive pot.


MSR alpine classic SS
The test :
A fast cooktime and a somewhat higher weight. But to put it in the words of Cruijff
(a famous Dutch football players for you folks who donít know him), every
advantage has itís disadvantage. Tip for SS : first heat the pan and only then put
your grease and meat in. Our opinion : fast, reasonably cheap, strong and heavy.
Scorching and cleaning was easy.


Conclusion :
The plain AL pot is finished. Yeas theyíre light and cheap, but for the rest itís a
very old economy. SS pots are an option : durable, not to expensive but heavier
than AL. TI weighs almost nothing, is strong and very precious. But
heatconduction is bad. Weíre really pleased with the anodised pots : strong, a
little expensive, a little heavy and with an anti-stick coating easy to clean.

Here's the link to the test (for checking my translation <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

http://www.oppad.nl/published/opp/content/binaire-bestanden/testen-2006/op806-test-pannen-294381.pdf

The test dates back a couple of years so some sets are no longer available and i don't agree with all of it.

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#94745 - 05/11/08 11:18 AM Re: translation finally finished [Re: jorgoz]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Quote:
Hardened AL is stronger than steel


I wouldn't bet my money on that. Its surface hardness is harder (using Type III Hard Anodizing) then un-heat treated steels, but it is not stronger then steel no matter what the sales man wants you to think.

Anyways I use a Stainless Steel USGI canteen cup for cooking, which is referring to boiling water to get ready to go meals ready to eat (ie meals such as Mountain House meals). Not really "cooking" persay.

Been thinking about getting a Jet Boil though, but I doubt that counts as Light weight. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Dimitri

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