hey Kev <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wow that engagement stuff was really frightening. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I see why you were lookin fer a horse to hide behind. Anyway I prefer the shoot out at the OK Corral. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeh - somepeople watched too many cowboy movies. And you spend too much time watching sitcoms... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
YMMV
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes it's sad! My #1 reason for carry is dogs, wild or not, in the nature preserve I care for. Our town has even passed a pit-bull ordinance because of the problem. Regular calls are heard on the scanner like .... "woman and children pinned in their cars by mean dog..." It's also sad that some dog owners will fight to the death for their dogs "right" to intimidate. I've seen that kind of protectionism around here.
Maybe we should have a "concealed dog license" that educates and trains the owners. Sounds like dogs were a major part of that "hiker shooting gond bad".

I see an out of control dog no less dangerous than someone waiving a pistol around with a random safety. Especially if small kids are present.


(disclaimer....not a dog hater here....but I can dicern between a nice dog and a mean dog!)

It's been done: http://www.ibotnow.com/about-ibot.html

I threw that last statement in there about “use it if you draw it” at the last second without really explaining myself. I agree with what you posted. One should draw intending to use it, but by all means do not fire if the situation changes (i.e. the perp turns and runs). The point I was trying to make is that brandishing a weapon just for the sake of intimidation is a bad idea. If one has not prepared themselves mentally to pull the trigger if they feel it is the right thing to do to protect their self or loved ones, then you have a situation where a perp that may have had many guns waved in his face will overpower and take the victim’s weapon. I guess that is all I was trying to say.

Personally for me, I would probably not draw (i.e. let someone know I even had a gun on me) unless I was 99.9% sure I was going to pull the trigger as soon as I got my gun into position. Yeah, there’s always that 0.1% chance things might change though, so that has to be taken into consideration. Thus, why I just decided that for now I won’t carry. I just haven’t come to the point where I feel like I would make the right decision. I believe my judgment would become clouded by my emotion, and I don’t want to do anything “stupid”.

The big thing in all this is the mental preparation. I just feel too many people own and carry guns that haven’t put 5 minutes into thinking about the consequences of their actions if they use them (I have actually met plenty of these people…they kinda scare me). I understand that there are people with extensive firearms training, people who may have military training, or just people who have a lot of experience using a firearm. These aren’t the people that concern me. It’s the one who has had a bad thing happen, and suddenly goes and gets a gun cause that’s gonna protect him/her from said bad thing happening again. Or the person that knows someone who had something bad happen to them, so they get all freaked out and get a gun. These are the people who load it up and stick it under their pillow or carry it around, and haven’t put the time into practicing using it, getting training in using it and thinking about when it would be appropriate to use it.

At any rate, on another train of thought (while I’m at it) I was watching 20/20 one night (yeah I know, tabloid style crap), and they actually had an interesting story on there. It was about a guy that was hiking and came upon a strange situation. The background is that the guy was a standup citizen (no police record) that legally carried a concealed weapon (has extensive firearm training/experience) when he hiked. On one of his hikes he happened across a strange fella with 2 dogs. The 2 dogs ran at him and did not appear friendly, so he drew his gun and fired into the ground to scare them away. After that then the strange guy ran at him. Not knowing his intentions or if he had a weapon, he shot him (the guy ended up dying). What ended up happening? Well, turns out the jury decided that since the strange fella wasn’t armed the other guy had used excessive force, and he went to prison. I know this is an extraordinary circumstance, but I ask…what would you do in that situation?

Me…I wouldn’t have had a gun on me so who knows what would have happened. I would like to think that since I am fairly large I could either over power the guy or at least outrun him while trying to get away (although the dogs factor in here if they are vicious). If I had a gun in that situation…well, I probably would have done the same thing or something similar to what the other guy did.

Oops, I just mentioned this incident in one of my replies. There was also a 2 hour 20/20 (or some similar show) that covered all the details of this incident. It was truly a "1 in a million" circumstance, but the bottom line is the guy shot someone that was unarmed. Whether he was right or wrong, that is why he went to prison.

"After the trial, jurors said they didn't believe Fish's claim of self-defense, mostly because testimony from a medical examiner indicated Kuenzli's wounds were probably defensive."

http://www.paysonroundup.com/section/localnews/story/24609

Well, that headline could have also read, "Nearly 4 in 5 troops do not have mental problems after war service".

You got out mostly unscathed then. That's a lucky thing. Odds were with you on that. Having spent time with many `nam vets I would say that characterizing their war related mental trauma as "understandable anxiety" is describing their situation inaccurately too, but I would not extend that to yours personally. It probably depends more on what happened to you personally than any other factor and both terms are too broad to be descriptive.

My point was really that smoking pot would have little to do with rather someone in a violent death related incident would feel remorse. George Washington smoked pot, I don't recall reading anywhere that he was remorseful for his part in leading the revolution's forces which certainly caused a few deaths.

And hey, had I been there with you I would have danced a dance for life with you too. I understand that, believe me.

Bill

"Personally for me, I would probably not draw (i.e. let someone know I even had a gun on me) unless I was 99.9% sure I was going to pull the trigger as soon as I got my gun into position. Yeah, there’s always that 0.1% chance things might change though, so that has to be taken into consideration."

But that's just it -- in the majority of cases, things DO change when a weapon is drawn with the intent to fire, in the typical scenarios in which law-abiding citizens are forced to draw a weapon to defend themselves. We're talking thousands of times a year. Definitely do not draw unless you intend to fire. Definitely do not fire just because you drew your weapon.

I was waiting for someone to mention this, because I think it really does have a place in this "rules of engagement" discussion. And it really has been a _discussion_ which is a miracle in this day and age. It's a credit to everyone participating in this thread.

I'm going to suggest that people who aren't DEEPLY skilled need to think about carrying non-lethal weapons, perhaps in addition to a lawful handgun. Unless you think the majority of your incidents will be life and death, train yourself to go for the long knife or pepper spray first. (If you really expect to encounter a high probablility of life and death situations -- you should reall re-think being in that area.) There is probably a million and one chance that you should have gone for your gun, which really is an unlucky break, but there is a much greater chance that you non-lethal defensive action is enough to buy what you need to run away. If it really is life and death, I suspect you will drop your knife or pepper spray instanly and get your hands on your handgun, having lost only a half second.

Lots of conversations focus on this lost half-second, but I think it's a red herring. That half-second used wisely is most likely sufficient to save your life -- and it keep you from making the biggest mistake of your life.

-jamieS

I remember this Fish incident well in the local news.

It was a classic case of guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Berserker

quote not from you:
"allowed the former Tolleson High School teacher the opportunity to vividly and emotionally tell for the first time in public what happened on the trailhead the day he shot Kuenzli three times in the chest."
___________________________________________-

You can't expect to shoot someone 3 times and claim self defense, not in California anyway. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> If you shoot more than once, you better have a convincing story. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Interesting that the new law shifts the proof of using deadly force to the state for self defense. Um - I sort of thought you were innocent until proven guilty - oops that was before """WE""" decided to toss out the Constitution as an unreasonable barrier to "national security". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

My thought about the above case is - what about the dogs? Why didn't the dogs get to him before the "victim" was within "stiking range"? Did he shoot the guys dogs? Is that why the guy ran at him screaming? Moral - keep your dog on a leash becasue someone might not like Fido bighting them and may feel the moral right to "kill in self defense" even to the point of reloading. And the other moral - find another way to deal with dogs on trails besides shooting them with lead. Maybe a bunch of you guys with guns should have mace instead.

The scariest things I have read in this thread is the message that some people :
1) feel the need to kill in self defense [not wound]
2) have the feeling that if it might be legal to kill someone that its OK.

um what happened to though shalt not kill?
If someone feels the need to kill someone in self defense, they will create a situation where they need to defend themselves.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

P.S. After due consideration I think I would be rather be unarmed [except with my dull assalt scissors] while hiking in public wilderness with a variety of users.

PPS. The crazy unarmed users have just as much right to be there as said solid citizen carryng a gun. Maybe if Fish wasn't packing he wouldn't have shot the guys dogs and his arrogance about having a "right to shoot" somebody wouldn't have landed him prison and shattered 2 families. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Well said. This is a very eloquent way of summing up my impressiion of Teacher Fish at the time this tragedy happened.

Another scary thing this thread brings out is how much fear and loathing there is out there regarding our fellow humans and dogs on the trail!

I worked on R&D for wheelchairs for a few years. People in wheelchairs don't necessarily want a chair that climbs stairs. What they want is a way to get at what's up those stairs. Most would be happy if you brought it downstairs so they could get at it there instead.

People that use manual chairs don't want power chairs and neither want plush bucket seats, which I was surprised to learn. We made a four wheel drive, independent suspension, power assisted steering, wheelchair that went over 20mph, could go off road, and you could raise it high enough to get at the stuff in standard kitchen cabinets (with a plush bucket seat). It did not go upstairs though.

Not one C-5 or C-4 Quad even wanted to get in it. Not one. Not even one Paraplegic wanted to take it for a spin. Not one. They all said the same thing, "It's too much, I would never go that fast and I really hate that seat."

I sure had fun test driving it though, it was one cool machine. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bill

Jim, I would say that killing and defending one's life are not the same. If I were attacked by a cougar I would try to defend myself, not necessarily to kill the cougar, but if that's what it took to save my god given gift of life, then that's what I'd do. I would not waste my life with non-violent submission in that situation. Nor would I waste if it was a soulless human that were trying to take my life.

I would feel the need in both situations to defend myself. If doing that caused a death, am I a killer?

Bill

BTW, Awesome thread you've started here <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Reminds me of my Granny Lavina...

She's sort of a legend too. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bill

And that is a thoughtful, realistic, personal viewpoint. And I believe that everyone should have the right to decide this for themselves, and the maturity to respect individual decisions.

Bill

I have to tell you that I sympathise with your distaste for "souless humans". Theres some people that I just don't think have a right to life, however they in fact do have a right to life regardless of my opinion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> No. In the interest of saving what semblance of peace we have in America, what with a government bent on selling us fear, I just think its a better idea to live and let live than to try to create a better place - one death at a time. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I mean just image the imapct of running into illegals along the border and pulling your assault scissors out. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure brandishing some shiny scissors would put the fear of God in their hearts - <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> either because they know what assault scissors are, or they think yer gonna whup em all and give em a haircut, or because they think you must be some kind of nut. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Or all of the above, in which case if you are polite they might share their smoke with you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

By not being afraid, you put the fear of God into those that live in fear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
P.S. Yes Bill if you kill someone then you are by definition a killer but maybe not a murdered, thats after they convict you. If you are that frightened of the illegals along the border, hike somewhere else. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Its not worth subjecting yourself to that level of discomfort to enjoy desert hiking.

Like many, my biggest fear, no matter if hiking or at home are all the paranoids out there out to get me!

OK. The clarification makes sense. If you are going to carry, be prepared to use it, not necessarily do you have to use it. You are right in that you have to have the right mind set. Just the same that mindset must be flexible.

"You can't expect to shoot someone 3 times and claim self defense, not in California anyway. If you shoot more than once, you better have a convincing story."

You are correct in that you had better have a convincing story and hopefully direct evidence and physical evidence to justify your actions. I disagree that you are limited to shooting a person once if they are a lethal threat to you. You should shoot until the threat is no longer a threat whether it be the suspect gives up, runs away or is incapacitated.

The reason you took the action to shoot them in the first place is because you perceived that they were taking substantial action to kill you or gravely injure you. But California is one of those special places where certain people are attempting to outlaw self defense altogether. So you may be right. That's one of the reasons I don't live in California.

The minimum response should be two rounds or more to the center of mass and maybe a third to the head if the two did not do the job. This is the gory reality of armed conflict. People don't go down with one shot like on TV.
This is the stuff that one should prepare one's self for if they plan to be armed.

Regards,
Green and Tan

Concerning, "feel the need to kill in self defense [not wound]".

Because of legal ramifications you can't say, "I was shooting to wound him. Oops, I'm sorry he died."
So I think legal concerns force us to adopt the mindset, "I was shooting to stop the threat." with death or life being incidental.


As for, "have the feeling that if it might be legal to kill someone that its OK"
I hope I haven't come off like that. I seldom carry. I've never pulled a weapon on anyone and never shot at anyone. I hope I never need to, but if it happens I want to win and live.

Coyote

Coyote, oops you're right, shoot only until the threat changes, however a sniper doesn't waste rounds... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> My daddy always taught me not to waste ammunition. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> In his day a .22 round was serious investment in dinner.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I would never shoot twice, but I was never taught that. I'm a hip shot, I don't need no stinking sights. I never even see my sights unless I'm target shooting at a range. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No you haven't come across wrong, and I understand the sentiment "I'd rather it was him than me". My wife made the same statement tonight so I was able to grill her about just what she meant. Her idea was a very theoretical concept not grounded in any tactical reality. I explained to her that this post was about using deadly force. She actually had never thought about details like rules of engagement. Mentally she could do it, but she had no ideas about how. She is totally unprepared planning wise.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


All I'm really asking is that you folks who do carry should be prepared if you ever intend to use them.

I agree with that. I did not say I wanted to kill soulless people. I said I would defend myself (and loved ones) from being killed by soulless people, like the guy I mentioned doing life in Oregon. I knew this man. He had no soul. He did not care about people. He considered them all "Potential victims", he told me this himself. I would not have cared in the least if I had heard he was killed while committing his crime against those two young women, but I felt for them. Had I been there I would have tried to defend those women, even if I had to kill him to do so. And I would have done a victory dance when it was over too.

Maybe I can sum it up like this, I wouldn't help Jeffrey Dahmer make the sauce for his dinner, and I don't think Jesus would've either. "Live and let live" works great for you and me, but not so good when it's you, me, and Jeffrey. I can sit still and let Jeffrey kill and eat you, and then me too. I could justify that by saying Jeffrey has a right to live too, but how is the world better for that?

If I saw Jeffrey boil a pot of water and then get ready to conk you on the head, what would you have me do? What if this happened every night for a week and I was getting sleepy?

The subject of this thread is "Rules of engagement". If I am to lay down my life, and that of those I love to any Jeffrey that will take them, there are no rules, and no reason to live. Even the dove tries to defend itself from the attacks of the cat. If it kills the cat in the process that does not make it a killer. It never had, and never will, attack any cat and try to kill it, therefore it cannot be a killer.

I did not receive the gift of life to amuse madmen with how they might take it from me and I have many reasons to want to keep living. These things I know to be true.

Go to the forums for ABC's "This Week with George Stephanopoulos ". Look up the thread, "Solatium for This Weeks Memorial". That's me writing those messages. Several have been deleted by the moderator, but you'll get the idea of what I'm trying to say there.

Bill

I should've pointed out that this also includes Presidents and other such "Leaders" who are madmen too.

Bill

Jimshaw,
I carry a gun for one reason, a cop is too heavy to carry. And I mean that in a halfway serious way. I started training and shooting handguns (rifles and shotguns as a teenager) when I joined the military. I have untold thousands of hours at the range, both civilian and military, and many, many hours in CQC (indoor close quarter combat) buildings.

I think there is a common misconception, that everyone who has a concealed carry permit (here in KY you can open carry if you want) is some kind of wild eyed raving lunatic, "just itchin to do me some killin", redneck.

Far from it. Most people I know, make that everyone I know, who has a CCW permit, first of all, well you'd probably never know it, and second they are probably a lot more well trained on when not to shoot, than when to shoot. So I think that we've (those who choose to carry) been watered down here a bit, into something too simple, as to having the same mentality as the people we want to defend ourselves from. This is what the media would like you to believe.

The problem lies with those who want to do me harm. You see, they also carry concealed. Never in the open. Mostly because they have criminal histories, and can't legally have a gun. Many around here are not U.S. citizens, and they don't get a CCW, either.

I shoot with a lot of cops. Just as many more cops do as little range practice as possible, just enough to meet their departments requirements.

I have had to brandish my firearm (outside the military) one time. I would have been well within my legal rights to have shot the individual, but said individual was caught completely off guard, was visibly very shaken, and decided to concede the fight, and I let him go his own way, then dialed 911, and waited by the roadside until a Sheriff's deputy came, took a description, had me sign a short witness statement, showed him my CCW permit, and I never heard anything else about it.

Had I not presented my weapon in defense, would the scumbag have shot me? I'd say maybe, I don't know. But I would hate to be laying on the ground, bleeding out, wishing I had used a show of force, and thinking of that as my last thoughts before I died.

So, my position is this. If you choose, for whatever reason under the sun, not to carry a weapon, then I support your decision 100%. Not only is that your right, but you are also no threat to me.

The police? Well, if there happens to be one standing nearby, I doubt that unless the "bad guy" is suicidal, he/she, are going to walk on by and look for another victim. Again, no threat there. Unfortunately, there aren't enough law enforcement in the world to safely guard everyone. Law enforcement usually responds to crimes already commited, or if they can get on the scene quickly enough, crimes in progress. But, they are more typically 1st responders to a violent crime already commited.

Lastly, I could walk right by you a hundred times a day, and you'd never know that I was armed, well trained, and well disciplined. If you shoot someone, even in rightous self-defense , there IS going to be a review by the prosecutor, and you still may have to defend yourself in a court of law. So the notion that people who carry gun's are wild eyed, quick on the trigger, wannabe cowboys is way off the mark. Are there those types out there. Certainly. But there are airline pilots who try to board and pilot aircraft while under the influence of alcohol. There are dirty cops. There's been prominent firemen caught in the act of arson, just for the sole purpose of trying to self-promote. There are Doctors who prescribe powerful drugs as a way to riches. And the list goes on and on. There is bad in every group.

The world isn't as simple as black and white. And that world consists of bad guys who would rape your wife in front of you, shoot your kids, and save you for last, just for the personal enjoyment of it all. Sick, sad, but true.

I hope I never meet that person. And I sincerely hope I never, ever have to "kill" anything other than a cold beer, or can of soda. But if it comes down to me or the bad guy, I'm going to put him down first, if at all possible. It's just as simple as that. It's not political, it's not an issue of morality, it's just pure human survival instinct. If you feel that you can't, won't or never would shoot in a situation, no matter what, there is not the need or reason to jump through the legal hoops, get a background check, (here, we also have to get the permission from the top cop in the area, usually the Sheriff's dept, take the time to obtain professional training, and continue that training, there's no reason for you to even bother in the first place.

I don't think it's an ideological ot political discussion, I know several on the far left, almost to the extreme, who carry concealed. I don't think survival is a "moral" issue, either. It's a mature choice for mature people, and with it (choosing to own and carry a firearm) definetley puts the onus of responsibility on the legal firearm owner. It's just that simple. I would never judge you or anyone else as to whether or not you choose to carry a weapon for self defense.

J.